Cable Costs Relative to System

I run synergistic designer ref. on my components and iam very happy with the whole package.I have tried diff. cables over the years audioquest.kimber xlo and even lat.I think now i have found the best for me.Yes i think the cable issue is to expensive but most people think were crazy anyways(audiophiles) so what.
Try to enjoy if not sell it all and buy a BOSE

Sorry, Sdcampbell- I agree with you about the need for adjusting the listening room. Been there, done that. I'll still consider my money well spent on the expensive cables and power cords that I'm using. Is it self delusion? Well, not according to my wife and friends. Without the cables, the MUCH more expensive active components simply make sound, not music - the emotional connection to the artists and the event. That's precisely why I'm into high-end audio, not for concerns of profit margins or ratios. I've had lots of expensive equipment without high-end cables and power cords, and almost left audio because of the frustration. I've finally obtained a level of performance that thrills me everytime I sit down to listen, and I couldn't have reached this point without outstanding cables. We should all try to be informed and "buy smart" whenever possible. If you can find comparable performance at a lower cost, buy it. Otherwise, be happy that you've found a $1500 power cord that finally makes your $6000 DAC produce some semblance of music. For the record, I'm another EE that believes that cables can make a huge difference. Just my .02.

I feel that speaker cables and interconnects should actually add “nothing” to the musical output; they should be as transparent as possible. Of course there exists a huge difference between quality cables and common 18 gauge wire, but I really do not think that the return-on-investment is great enough to warrant huge expense after a certain level is reached (technology is such that transparent cables can be produced with very moderate cost).. IMHO.

I forgot to mention in my previous post that the current issue of "Listener" (march/April) has a feature article on interconnects, "Our Favorite Audio Cables". Ten of their writers/contributing editors discuss their favorites, etc.

Add another vote to those who spent 20% of their system's MSRP on cables. A combination of HT ProSilway, AP Oval 9, Illuminations D-60, Synergistic Master Couplers and BMI Majiks account for one fifth of that spent so far. This ratio was reached almost completely by accident. Funny how the 80/20 rule creeps into so many aspects of life...

Still, while ratios of this nature are good as rules of thumb, the real proof is the end result. In this case it's the sound. Having started with old, heavily used, cheap-to-start-with cables I experienced first hand the difference decent wire can make. Being relatively new to the world of audio nervosa, the memory is still fresh and not overly embellished or diminished by the passing of time. That this perception doesn't originate from "psychoacoustic" phenomenae is borne out by the observations of learned associates (aka friends with good hearing and a knowledge of music). Without prompting they almost always picked out the differences in the sound after a cable upgrade. Mass halucinations aside, of course. Needless to say, my experience, like many of yours, has been that good cables have proved to be a worthwhile investment.

But isn't there a point of diminishing returns? Shouldn't the real question be about where to draw the line? If one spends $100K on a system should $20K really go on wire? Logically it seems that at some point on the spectrum connectors, wire, craftmanship and design don't, maybe even can't, get better. Especially by the magnitude necessary to justify the additional cost. Can $20K really buy more than $10K judiciously spent? Is there really some value there aor are the extra dollars just padding someone's bottom line?

My gut, which, lacking a great deal of experience, is all I have to go on, says at very least a lot of caution is warranted regardless of the price point because the issues are the same at the high end as at the low end. Lots of snake oil salesmen and a few purveyors of quality products providing real solutions. As the ancients wrote, "Caveat emptor." As I say, "Try not to make PT Barnum right."

I almost always agree with the comments submitted by Trelja, and we are again in complete agreement. Unless you guys that are spending thousands of dollars on wire have entirely different hearing than me and my wife(I've been an audiophile for 40 years, and she has the most acute hearing of anyone I have ever known), or your listening environment is subject to lots of RF and other interference, you need to rethink your spending patterns. If you want to make a significant difference in the listening quality of your system, I suggest you focus on the room. Improvements to the acoustics of the listening area are often THE most signficant. You might think about acquiring a digital room conditioning preamp, such as the TacT, or have architectural changes made to the listening room. Just my two cents worth.

Metaphysics- I've done some of the comparisons that you asked about with the Coincident IC vs Nordost Quattro fil vs Kimber Select Silver vs KCAG vs FMS Nexus. All are excelent cables, but the Coincident and the Kimber Select Silver came out on top. They are quite different in their respective signatures, but in my system, preferrable to the others. I hope to compare these with FIM Gold IC in the future, but a relocation has temporarily curtailed my audio endeavors/spending. Ugh.

I agree that cables are the marked up more then any other product. I also think that they are one of the best bangs for the buck and should be considered as a component. Good cables are a must.

I guess I can recommend the Siltech ST-18 G3 intereconnects which list for $200 for 0.5 meter and then $25 per additional 0.25 meter ($300 for 1.0 meter). They are outstanding. Also check out on eBay "MAS" cables made and sold by Stu Wein in Pennsylvania. I bought his "Black" model silver interconnects for $50 and they were better than the $150 Van den Hul D102MkIII Hybrids. He is sending me his best "Grey" silver interconects for $80/pair which he claims will compare with $400 interconnects. I believe him based on the performance of the Black. He will sell direct outside of eBay if you contact him.

I guess I mean $500 a pair personal limit like Trelja. Hey Bob_Bundus: Mike Vansevers is another Pro-Audio guy who once thought cables and power conditioners were a bid joke; but now he is no longer into Pro-Audio and is now in the Cable and Power Conditioner business.

I have never done a comparison; I just buy what sounds good. I did place a $500 ceiling for one cable, but this does not stop me from buying a $1000 cable used for $500 like the Nordost SPM.

Thahks, Treljia. That is the exact kind of info I was looking for in my original post. Have you (or anyone) actually compared these cables to some of the bigger brands?

I think cable is one of the biggest(if not THE biggest) ripoffs in audio. Yes, wire makes a difference. And often, the difference is not insignificant. But, the markup on the product is beyond astronomical. I am always pushing for the kind of cable that comes in under $500, that is as good as ANYTHING out there. Even then, these companies are making money hand over fist. Before you buy from the really overpriced companies, check out companies like Coincident, HomeGrown Audio, and Silver Audio(along with the others we see here). To my ears, they are as good as you can do for under $1500, and they are all less than $300. I think you do NOT have to spend over $500 for almost any cable to get world class performance.

Glad to have stared this thread. The trend that I'm seeing is that a majority of you are in the same boat as me: 10-20% spent on cables and most feel it's worth it. Unfortunately, whether it is psychology or science, I have always found that more expensive cables within a line (e.g.Nordost, Cardas, Kimber) sound better than the less expensive ones. Another point is that most of us start out with the electronics and then continually change/upgrade cables because they're the easiest to change in and out(and sell and ship). However, if we could take all of the cash and build a system from scratch using this set amount(say $75k), would cables get this large a budget?

First, I would like to thank Metaphysics for starting this thread, as after reading it, I realized that I had never given this subject much thought. I've always approached the audio hobby experience as a journey. I've never thought about ratios or a formula for expenditures before. An ear for the musical presentation that I'm after and common sense create the framework for items purchased. After some thought and a little quick math I found that I've got about 10% in cables as well! I admit that I grinned a little at first as it took me by surprise. To be certain, we didn't get here all at once. Good cables led to really good, and then to some great cables. I've also bought and sold some "great cables" that didn't turn out to be so "great" in our system. I'll also shamefully admit that I have a military surplus PC in my audio chain that I purchased used at a local electronic store for $8.99. Oh, I've tried to replace it, but that damn cord just keeps working its way back into my system because it brings me closer to the music. Maybe there isn't a golden ratio in all of this cable business. Perhaps we've just got a touch of the monkier in all of us. That's ok with me, as long as I'm enjoying the journey and the music.

Weiserb: Let me introduce myself as "that electrical engineer who buys into cable hype". That's me, among many others. I used to refuse to believe in any of this, until I tried it myself. Just as many of you do, I have a considerable sum invested in equipment. However, regardless of component quality, my results were always mediocre, UNTIL I properly cabled the rig. I don't even know how many thousand $ I have into cabling now, but I don't care because that's when I really began to realize the true potential of my gear. In one case I have a $2000 AC cord on an $1800 component, and $1000/pr. interconnects running both to & from it. Being admittedly jaded, I even think that that's ridiculous, but "you can't argue with success". Bottom line: Cables DO make or break the rig.

Cornfed, that isn't quite what I ment to say. I was trying to say that if you have a $15,000 amp and three thousand additional dollars to spend, IMO a $3000 power cord will make a larger improvement than upgrading to an $18,000 amp. I would never say or believe that a power cord has greater value than the amp! Please give me a little credit. If I tried to equate it to your Vette I guess I'd say four new $800 high proformance tires would have a greater percentage increase than a $30,000 suspension upgrade. If this still makes no sense than I clearly am unable to express my thoughts on this. Which is why I'm an Architect and your an Attorny. Lets just leave it that I would spend $15,000 on an upgraded amp if I had the money, but the $300 I spent for a $3000 power cord got me quite a bit more than what I could have afforded in an amp. But I would be happy to take a charity gift if you really think I should have the amp. J.D.

I have always heard 10%-20% of retail is a good pricerange to operate in for cable budget.Myself running close to the 20% mark.

If you guys are reading this it means you probably buy at least some of your gear on line . At 40-70% off of list price. Unless you are the ruler of a country Spending
$ 3,000.00 on a power cord is nuts! I bought an MIT powercord from HCM for $ 99.00. 15 foot M2.4 Biwire monsters( list $ 1,100.00) for $ 300.00 Monster M10001 @ $ 115.00 M etc . By the way Dan from Krell uses Monster cables on his $ 35,000.00 speakers . I would never use lamp cord but lets try to be a little objective. One of the reasons high quality cables sound better is that they lower the background noice level & shield against interference.
I know they look cool , but if you find an electrical engineer that buys any of the cable hype, please let me know. PS I think the most noticable step I have taken toward getting closer to the music in my 30+ years of obsession with Audio has been my discovery of TUBES ! Enjoy the ride!

I am in the same boat almost as the original poster. I've got around a $70K retail value in my system and probably 19% of it is cable, wires, power cords and a Shunyata Hydra ordered. I agree that getting the big important pieces figured out at first is more important such as getting your "dream speakers' and the perfect amp to mate with them. Then getting front ends that you really enjoy and pass them through a great preamp is of the utmost importance. THEN, tweaking with good cabling and power management really finishes off the sound and seems to make the most difference becasue the transparency of the system allows it to be heard. I am into those final stages now, just getting the hydra, power cords and the last piece of some really expensive speaker wire. Each of these changes now brings me closer to the music and makes it more enjoyable. I don't think the "fringe" improvments would have made sense a few years ago before I got my transport, dac and speakers that I have now. But as I said the "other" stuff is about 19% of the total retail value of the system and I've gotten 70% of my equimpent used. Some pieces were bought new at very steep discounts too.

I'm with cornfed; the whole wire and power cord thing is the most shameless ripoff in all of the High End. Yes, good wire makes an improvement, but not a huge one, and the cost structure is so obscene it makes me sick. If you knew the markup on most brands of cable and cords, you'd feel like punching the next guy that has the gall to try and sell you this stuff at near-retail. Yes, I used to own pricey wire and I have an expensive system that can reveal wire differences. It doesn't mean I have to buy into this swindle though. But ultimately it's your money and your value system, if expensive wire works for you psycho-acoustically or psycho-somatically, than go for it. Me, I'm back to nice but sanely-priced wire from now on. And no more "magic cords" filled with nonsense and galling hyperbole. Hey, who wants to buy a $2000 power cord--it'll make all the difference in your system, I promise!! Yikes......

I think that's what they said about the Shelby Cobra : )

I agree with you wholeheartedly even though i joked about what you said. Just like anything else, something that is well designed to start with needs less "finessing" than something that was "lacking" when it left the factory. Buy better gear and go and go from there. Sean
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Cornfed, well put.

i am flabbergasted that anyone would say that the purchase of a $3,000 power cord equates with a $15,000 increase in the price of an amp upgrade. where in the world did you come up with that figure? my system is worth considerably more (at msrp) than the one put together by metaphysics and none of it was bought used. all the wire in it comprises less than 5% of the total value. adding a $3,000 power cord to a $5,000 pramp is the equivalent, in my opinion, of stuffing a corvette engine into a geo metro; it may be faster off the line but it's still a metro.

In my opinion, most of the cables on the market can be duplicated using as good or better quality components for appr. 20% of the retail price. IF your handy at DIY and doing some careful research and shopping, you can typically make BETTER cords and cables than what most of reviewers are raving about for that month or two. Of course, it helps to have a little electronics knowledge and various tools and supplies at one's disposal in order to keep costs down. As such, i find buying "fancy cables" ( including power cords ) to be a vast waste of money in most cases. Besides that, i've found cables to be so extremely system and component dependent that spending BIG money on specific cables without first trying them in your system is quite foolish indeed. What might be "the latest & greatest" might actually make YOUR system perform noticeably poorer. This is NOT to say that i think that spending that kind of money on them is wrong for others to do, i just don't think that it is necessary in my specific situation. Besides that, it helps when you get all your supplies "wholesale". Sean

Metaphysics- As for me, I think "it takes what it takes," regardless of the relative system percentage. Great cables are absolutely necessary, and rarely inexpensive. The same can be said about active devices as well. I'm sure that there are many who believe that money spent on an "active" component is a far wiser choice than "passive" cables. In terms of resale value, that may be true. However, I've found that without great cables, including powercords, (and their requisite expense) I don't have a full appreciation of the strengths and weaknesses (sonic) of the other components in my system. Your first dollar buys you the most sound. After that, everything could be viewed as diminishing returns. Your system is obviously at the level that cables and pc's can provide the subtle and not-so-subtle improvements necessary for you to more greatly enjoy reproduced audio. If you're doubting your expenditures in high-end cables, simply remove them from your system and determine for yourself if you still have the sound that pleases you. If you're after amazing cables for the money, I'd recommend Coincident Speaker Technology. If you want to spend more, I'd recommend FIM Gold series cables. How either of these compare to the prices of your current cables, I have no idea. However, the cost of your cables and their relative percentage of the system cost isn't the real issue. The real issue is whether you can be happy with the sound, and consequently the money spent (80% or roughly $27K) on the electronics in the system, without the high-end cables. My guess is NOT. Others may disagree, but your ears are the only tools you'll need to determine the answer. Sorry, I'll get off my soapbox now. Just MHO.

Interesting question. For myself the cost for cable came to 3% of the system's total value of $35k. 0% went to power cables, but another 8% went into power line conditioners/filters. It's my opinion that too many audiophiles over spend on cables. Their systems are good enough to reveal the differences between cables, but that still begs the question whether they are a good value. I use Discovery +4 interconnects and Sumiko OCOS cable. Both are very good products, but I recognize that there are superior, and far more expensive, products out there. I'm not knocking expensive cable products, but I think the money can be better spent on music software, front end equipment or room treatments. BTW, I use an integrated amp (w/ phono). This contributes to keeping interconnect costs down.

My total cable investment (retail) is almost as much as yours. My total system is a bit over half yours. Yes there must be a point of diminishing returns, but I cann't say I've found it. I think a $3000 investment in a power cord vs. a $3000 additional investment in an amp for example would provide about a 5 to one return at your system level. Five times the improvement factor in cord over amp, just my opinion! It's also possible that a $100 cord fits your system perfectly, thus your the lucky one. (or a $5000 amp) Every month it seems some "new" cord or theory comes out, so yes there are always hidden gems, the trick will be finding them. The nice thing about cables and cords is once you've invested in a full set of used cables the investment remains, you can try other cords and if it's better sell your old one, chances are good you'll get 90% of your money back.
You have bought a Hydra already wich means you paid full retail, that might have been a good idea due to the reviews I've seen on this product. For the most part I would never buy new for cables and cords, you pay full price, must burn it in and then risk after a couple months it sounding bad once it fully opens up. I've found if your pactient and can wait for the product for a couple years your investment is safer, but then you lose the chance of two more years of perfection. I like you find the Hydra very tempting, I haven't bought one yet.......J.D.