Cable auditions - Hard Work?

I'm sorry Bojack, but your two comments here show a great hypocritical view. First you claim cables are a scam, a comment I did not even give you the courtesy to reply to, Then you tell the poster of the thread to use Audioquest, as you say you have stuck with for 15 years.

What is your point? That because you have stuck with AQ for 15 years all others are a scam, or are you the scam, and clearly not worth listening to?

Point well taken, Jafox, and OK, I may have oversimplified and generalized an important part of our hobby. I think I was simply dismayed that there are those of us out there who are getting hung up on the system link that I feel is perhaps the least important. Personally, Olpet, I would go with Audioquest, as I have stuck with it for 15 years.

Paul (Oldpet) I can not answer your question without speculating. I will attempt to ger and answer from Kubala-Sosna.

Zargon, I agree with all your comments, and I believe I tried to point these subjective conclusions out.

[So, Kubala-Sosna is doing something different,and many believe it is better, however, it isn't necessarily "the best" or "totally uncolored" when compared to others. Remember, the cable effect is also dependent on the components it connects, and these dependencies may override everything else]

If I failed to get that across properly, I apologies for it does indeed remain subjective.

Steve, I would not be surprised if I mis-inturprited much of what I was told. I do however stand behind the general pholosaphy behind my posted thoughts. Both you and Zargon have put words in my mouth however. Below I copied my words:

"If there is such a thing as a completely neutral set of cables, as has been suggested by Kubala-Sosna about the Emotion cables, it would be hard to prove by listening. The Kubala-Sosna Emotion cables (power cords, interconnects, speaker cable and digital cables) pass a square sign wave through the full audible spectrum. This is the only test I know of that can quantify a cables ability to transfer a signal without altering the characteristics of the signal. I can not verify the point, but KS explains that other cables they have tested are not able to pass a completely square wave throughout the frequency spectrum. If I understand this correctly, that means all the other cables he tested were not able to transfer the signal un-altered. I do not know if this creates neutrality or simply affects the dynamics, but..."

"OK, for the sake of argument let me say that the KS Emotion are as close to neutral…"

"If you are interested in hearing your components I recommend finding a neutral cable."

"I believe Kubala-Sosna cables are 100% neutral,"

"I believe all three, actually five lines of KS cables have the same characteristics. I actually know very little about the other lines, other than…"

I never did claim a perfect square wave and I hedge the neutrality issue with “IF” there is …

This is a concept “we” audiophiles throw around a lot, yet I’m not even sure what neutral is. I assume it to be something with little affect on the audio signal, and yet I have tried to make it clear I have no test to verify this. So if we need to nit-pick over my words, please use my words and not others.

I stand by the intent of my words, that these are unique to my ears, and I do believe they are break through. I understand this is only my personal experience, but my experience on five different systems, and in all cases it has had the same affects.

JD

Any piece of wire can pass a square wave in the audio frequency range perfectly at the cable lengths we are using, maybe you are mis-interpreting what Joe meant? Maybe he can post a graph showing what he means.

steve

Jadem6

If all of the various lines of KS cables have the same characteristics, and by that I assume you mean -they allow a perfectly square sine wave to pass, then how is the halving of costs accounted for?

thanks
paul

With all due respect to Jadem6 and your excitement over the Emotion, we need to be careful not to jump to the wrong conclusion here.

A perfect square wave is the sum of an infinite series of sin waves. It is impossible to generate exactly, and no wire with any impedance will pass it exactly. In theory, only a wire with resistance, but no capacitance and no inductance, can pass a square wave without creating distortion. So wires with low impedance are preferred if this is the goal.

Kabala-Sosna claims that their Emotion has the lowest overall impedance of 31 competitive cables (which they do not identify). However, it is still not zero. So it would not be accurate to say it can pass a perfect square wave. In fact, it is careless to assert that there is no other cable that can pass a square wave as well as the Emotion, since all other cables have not been tested. If low impedance were the only design goal, it would not be difficult to achieve. However, there are other factors in cable design and these all must be taken into account.

So, Kabala-Sosna is doing something different, and many believe it is better, however, it isn't necessarily "the best" or "totally uncolored" when compared to others. Remember, the cable effect is also dependent on the componants it connects, and these dependencies may override everything else.

I have the Emotion XLRs and find them extremely musical and listenable. However, in my system, I don't believe they are necessarily the most neutral for purposes of a reference. The most neutral is not always the most listenable, but I continue to enjoy them anyway. I don't like neutral food either, and enjoy adding some spice.

Jadem6: That was a really outstanding analysis you provided. Made good sense, to me.

I believe all three, actually five lines of KS cables have the same characteristics. I actually know very little about the other lines, other than each line is about half the cost of the one above. They also come with a trade up policy which allows upgrading if desired.

As far as no other cable... I'm not sure, this is the only one however I have tried that is unique in it's characteristics and thus revolutionary in my mind.

Jadem6, you've completely sold me on the K-S Emotion cables with this and your other post. I've already told Joe by email that I will be saving up over the next year and will completely upgrade my system to his cables. Thanks for some very enlightening information. You have provided some terrific posts about these cables and information that I can really use. Thanks a million.

Bill

JD

Thank you for the amazingly well said explaination. In theory this all makes perfect sence. It's also sad to think that only one cable (KS Emotion) is able to pass a perfectly square sine wave, thus allowing a pure signal to reach the speakers. At $2700 per meter, the KS is out of the question for me. So the question arises - Does anyone want to buy my rig? :-)

Here’s some food for thought.

If there is such a thing as a completely neutral set of cables, as has been suggested by Kubala-Sosna about the Emotion cables, it would be hard to prove by listening. The Kubala-Sosna Emotion cables (power cords, interconnects, speaker cable and digital cables) pass a square sign wave through the full audible spectrum. This is the only test I know of that can quantify a cables ability to transfer a signal without altering the characteristics of the signal. I can not verify the point, but KS explains that other cables they have tested are not able to pass a completely square wave throughout the frequency spectrum. If I understand this correctly, that means all the other cables he tested were not able to transfer the signal un-altered. I do not know if this creates neutrality or simply effects the dynamics, but...

OK, for the sake of argument let me say that the KS Emotion are as close to neutral (not effecting signal and sonics) as any product tested. If we set up a system with 100% KS Emotion cables, than in theory we would be listening to only the equipment, and not the effects of the cables. Now say we add one cable from some other manufacturer that is not passing 100% square sign waves. Let’s for the sake of this discussion say the high frequency sweep was distorting on the scope, meaning we are losing signal or what we call rolled off.

The effect on the sonic qualities in our system would appear as more bass. We might even conclude this cable added bass, but it is not possible for a cable (a passive device) to add, so in fact the bass sounds deeper because the high end is no longer fully extended. Now through trial and error we find an interconnect that appears to add treble, so combined with the other cable it sounds balanced. In fact the second cable was rolling off the bass, thus balancing the signal back to neutral, but with both high and low frequencies rolled off. This is in effect what we experienced with John’s final two cables.

Cables do not EVER add, unless they have some active electronics in them, possibly cables like MIT or transparent may add, but that is something different all together.

So when someone tells you it’s synergy, it may be but it’s backward synergy. We spend $$$ on a source and more $$$ on amplification and more $$$ to turn the signal into music through our speakers. If we want to receive the most of what we purchase, it makes sense that we want to lose the least signal as it passes from source to speaker. Every time a cable rolls off a frequency we are losing a small amount of the potential we paid for. Add this up with a number of cables and the net result is something far less than our components are capable of.

This would tell me we should want as neutral a cable as possible. Or in other words a cable that alters the original signal as little as possible. It appears that the Kubala-Sosna cables are in fact doing just that. At this point my system is one cable short of 100% Emotion cables,(power cord to Hydra power conditioner) and that should mean I’m hearing my equipment for the first time. This of course means my isolation techniques that were created using the Valhalla cables needs to be looked at. I have no idea what a sign wave sent through the Valhalla cable might look like, but sonically my system sounded thin in comparison to now.

Here’s a second set of thoughts;

Let’s say you have your system all set up with brand X interconnects, and brand Y speaker cable. So far your budget or your denial of power cables making a difference has prevented you from trying power cords. So now you decide to try three different brands. Each one had some effect, one sounded bright, one was bloated in the bass and one seemed to dampen the entire presentation. What really happened? How did cord one sound?

There is no true way to answer this question, and because of this we have created audiophile lingo to describe our findings. Synergy, system dependent, my opinion, blah, blah, blah. The reality is person one experiences brightness because of the other cables weaknesses. He never actually heard the power cord, only the effect of that cords weaknesses upon the other weaknesses from the interconnects and speaker wire.

So when you are testing cables, it is not fully possible to explain the characteristic of one cable or another unless you have full understanding of what your system is already losing.

Is this an explanation to why some people do not hear a difference? Is it possible that the interconnect someone tries has less added roll off that the remaining system? This would mean the final sonic characteristic did not change with the new cable because the remaining cables were performing below the capabilities of the tested cable.

To actually say that cables make no difference is just plain naive, or it’s someone who has too much ear wax or it’s someone who has so many bad cables they have not experienced the issue or it’s just a jerk looking for a fight. This is not a debatable topic, cables do matter, and to a much bigger degree than we know.

So when you buy that new cable and put it in your system, remember, your not hearing that cables characteristics, your hearing the remaining cables, assuming of course your upgrading.

If you are interested in hearing your components I recommend finding a neutral cable. I personally have found the KS cables to effect my system with a completely different result than any other cables I’ve tried.. I have now heard these in five different systems, and in each and every case the effects were the same. In my system the bass tightened, the noise floor dropped, the highs remained fully extended yet with body. Midrange is very colorful. The notes appear more separated, more defined, yet my system does not at all sound clinical or analytical. In fact it sounds the best it ever has. I guess that means the equipment I have sound great.

I believe Kubala-Sosna cables are 100% neutral, and that no other cable they tested were able to pass a square sine wave. I believe this is a break through product, and it has helped me understand how cables work.

I hope this post was understandable, for I think it is a whole new thought process for explaining the effects of cables.

JD

Hmm...

I used to be a skeptic about cables too. however I do hear differences in various cables - especially ICs.
So:
Bojack - Not sure i agree with your statement that cables are a scam. I agree there must be a price point where the returns diminish so greatly, that it no longer is a worthy pursuit. But, there are differences, though subtle, in the cables I'm currently auditioning.

I think my stress is due to the fact that I don't want to be missing anything in the sonic picture, not the actual act of auditioning. Although - I will admit - I hate getting up and down to switch the cables. :-)

Synergy - I think I've just been lucky so far with regard to synergy. ALL of the pieces of equipment that I've inserted into the chain have performed well. My preferences dictate which i like better, but, none of them have been a disaster the likes of which I've read about on these threads. I suppose, this is why I always come back to cables.

Pardales - I agree with your comment on synergy. During the Kubala visit, by the time we got to swapping out the IC from the line stage to the amp, from MIT 350 Evo to K-S Emotion, there was a huge peak in the midrange. Anyone would immediately point blame to the K-S cable. In fact Joe Kubala made a bold statement and said it had to be the Concident TRS speaker cables in my system. His theory was that I had managed to obtain a "synergy" between the MIT and Coincident cables to achieve a balanced midrange. But with this also came a slight roll-off of the frequency extremes. This was new "territory" for me to take on such a theory so seriously and yet you know what...when we put in the K-S Emotion speaker cables, Joe was right on! What my synergy before was nothing more than a bandaid that happened to work with these two different cables. The musicality was there but now with the K-S pair, I had so much more resolution and frequency extreme extension. Two identically voiced cables paired together were far more accurate than two different cables. That's not synergy, that's neutrality and accuracy. I learned far more than I ever would have expected from the Kubala visit.

Synergy is important to compensate for faults in other links in the chain. As we upgrade our system, one component at a time, we base the performance of that new component on how it "mates" with the rest of our system. We need to put in component ABC with its Fault22 because component XYZ is complimentary to this with its Fault47 and so on.

So many people here claim that when one picks a cable, it should be the same model throughout the system. So far I have only ever heard one cable model where this can be done to excellent success - the Kubala Sosna Emotion. Even the Purist Dominus B which I have listened to for 2 days now, and absolutely love, would most likely be too much of a good thing for me if used throughout. It errors just enough from neutrality to make me feel summing up this error in many links would not be ideal. Here, "synergy" would be critical.

In time, I am starting to dislike this whole synergy thing more and more.

John

John, I think you offer a thoughtful perspective. But, what I think you are referring to more than the issue of cables is the issue of SYNERGY. A system that is assembled to work toegether can sound outstanding regardless of price.

A knowledgable dealer, even one that will only discount 10% of of retail, who listens to the customer, is knowledgable, and assembes a system where all the componenets (cables included) work together, can construct a system that genuinely sounds engaging.

In response to Bojack, the cable business is not all a scam. This is an irresponsible comment that sends the wrong message to newcomers of this hobby who seek to improve their system beyond their source, electronics and speakers. Sure, many cable prices are downright ridiculous but there are some cables that are not inexpensive and yet they bring on a level of improvement to a system as significant as other links in the chain for the same cost. Of course that system has to have the ability to benefit from such cables.

As for what audiophiles need to learn here, I suggest we keep an open mind and not be influenced by blanket statements. The thing to do is to try many different products in our own system and determine the value added for any system change at that time.

In another A'gon thread this week I covered the details of changing all the cables in my system to the Kubala-Sosna Emotion series ..... and, with the honor of Joe Kubala himself taking much of a full-day to help me with this task. The time spent swapping out each cable to a K-S, was ultimately exhausting but it proved a lot to even this long-time skeptic of power-cord differences. When you have the potential for a high-resolution system but you have been using cables that have masked some or much of these strengths for so long, it is quite incredible to hear the transformation. And the NBS and MIT cables that I have been using for so long are very good in their own right. But the K-S cables in my system brought on a new level of musicality that was simply breathtaking. Of course this comes at a cost.

I was able to hear a far greater capability of the Aesthetix preamp and CAT amps....and even the Manley DAC had a bass rhythm that has been lacking all along. It will be awhile before I can afford to purchase each and every one of these cables, but what this experience did for me was make me aware of what is there to achieve without the desire or need to change the other components in my system.

John

Yes, it's hard, tedious work. The good news is once you're done, find what you like, you don't have to go through it again for years as suggested above. As I built my system I used perfectly acceptable $200-$300 ICs for my 'major' components. Now that the system is 'done', I just wanted to dial-in the last bit of resolution and (yes) freq balance to my liking. But going through about 20 $300-$1000 ICs takes a LOT of time, esp as I was generally intentionally auditioning cables that had similar characteristics.

The Cable Company is both a blessing and a curse. My 'salesman' was incredibly knowledgeable and patient, helping me narrow things down considerably. They have every cable made, a reasonable (?) lease cost, all cables fully burned-in, painfree return shipping labels, but before you know it you've spent $400 just to audition. At least the price can be fully credited to buying a new or used cable from them at a fair, if not audiogon, price.

I can do up to 90min at a time, at the expense of getting on with my life. I have about a dozen CDs and a dozen LPs I use and know what to listen for. I tend to cover as much ground as I can in an intense listening session, rather than just listening to a particular cable for days more casually. Some of this may be the 2wk time limit of The Cable Co, a lot of it is I just want to get it over with. So it's usually one track I'll listen to once or twice before switching to a different cable. I can only compare one cable to another at a time, so I have to carefully choose the order in which I stage the cables, and can quickly narrow down to the favorites A/Bing against each other. I take copious notes (what a surprise) so I don't have to repeat a comparison unnecessarily.

The good news is I have found the 'perfect' ICs I was looking for to fit my system/ears/preferences (if not budget!) which takes the whole system an appreciable step beyond what the previous (decent) cables did. And learned a lot about many of the popular current cables available today. The bad news is I could have accomplished a lot more useful stuff (and saved a lot of money) in the hours and months it took to get to where I am now -- but we can all make that claim in this hobby. I don't know that I could have short-cutted the process and have the same level of confidence that I didn't hear cable XYZ that has such great press against my final choices.

The only thing 'worse' I can think of is auditioning power cords, which I did only enough of to replace all my generic IEC cords with $50-$200 cords -- relatively cheap -- with an absolute minimum of critical auditioning. YMMV of course.

If you are spending hours comparing cables, something is not right w/the rest of your system. Folks, the cables biz is a scam, and the sooner audiophiles learn this, the more money we'll have for what we value most: music.

Hi Paul,

I have spent way too many hours agonizing over this same thing. I finally figured it out, spend a few nights listening to your system with one cable, then with the other. If you found one was less enjoyable than the other, get rid of the one you didn't enjoy. In your price range it should not require such intense listening and stress. It should be apparent without a lot of thought after a couple nights, as to which was more musical and enjoyable.

I guess what I'm trying to say is if you're listening to your system and not your music, than you're missing the whole point of this hobby. ENJOY THE MUSIC! That is the goal.

JD

Lots of good ideas, and great advice. Thank you one and all.

I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one who finds this cable auditioning thing to be.....a pain. I actually find it to be stressful at times, like i have a final exam coming for which I haven't studied quite enough.

I would just buy some cables and stick with them, but I have found that different IC's - even in my self imposed price range - do bring various qualities to the table. I love 'air' and detail etc. but, i don't want to give up good deep bass with slam to get it. uuugggghhh!

I just have some self imposed rules on budget...I won't spend more than $250 on a pair of IC. Speaker cables are different for me because of the length of the run - 17+ feet. :-( That sort of limits my choices. I've done the DIY Canare 4S11 speaker cables - they're actually excellent for the $$.

I've never tried the Cable Co. I suppose I don't have anything to lose. Just some more sleep.

thanks again to all. Any more thoughts are still welcome.

paul

Have your buddy, Jack Daniels, come over and help. After a bit, even the $8,500 cables will sound o.k. :)

See www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

Auditioning cables is hard work - but it doesn't have to be excrutiatingly painful and the benefits can be great. The place that I get demo cables from to try (The Cable Company)has them already broken in, so unless I am trying something silver-based or one of the PAD cables with ferox, this isn't an issue for me. I have 6 specific "cuts" ( solo piano, solo female and male vocals, live acoustic jazz combo, symphonic piece, acoustic guitar, and drum solo)that I use and my methodology is pretty straight forward. I play all 6 cuts on my system the way it is which lets everything warm up and sound its best and refreshes my point of reference. I then change ONE set of cables and play the same 6 cuts again with the new cables in place, listening for how they sound or rather how the system sounds with them in place, compared to the reference and that completes the serious listening. I then play whatever else I feel like that night and repeat the process in reverse the next evening. The new cables will either prove their worth that way or the old cables will - one or the other. If I can't decide on this basis- the money is not spent and I haven't driven myself crazy.

would suggest you upgrade to after market power cords throughout the system.. they make a big difference.. it is really hard to audtition cables without going through the powercord upgrade thing (also forgot to metion suspending the cables)

assuming the cable is broken in.... i let it "settle in" after installing it for at least one hour..the changes become much more pronounced..

its not to a bad idea to listen to a broken in cable with really familiar material.. the changes become may be subtle at first, but the longer you listen and go back to the old one, they become evident pretty quick (what can be bad, is when you hear something 2-3 weeks after you bought it that you dont like)... the more "tuned" your ear becomes and the higher the resolution of your system, it becomes pretty obvious very quickly ( not always but generally speaking)

you also might have to make small speaker placement adjustments to compensate for the cable depending on your speaker...

hope that helps,

mike

Pardales pretty much summed it up for me as well.

bob,best cable advice ive ever saw!

It is so hard, I don't even do it. I choose a quality cable based on reccomendations and price and hope for the best.

Hmm, surprised nobody's mentioned the Cable Company yet. They make the process very simple - they send you multiple burnt in cables based on your system and stated preferences.

I insert one in the needed area (preamp to amp, CD to pre, etc) and play as much different types of music as possible. I keep that cable in as long as I enjoy it, and change it out if/when I don't like it, or want to hear something else.

After I've heard them all, I'll start the process over again, but the winner is the one that does the most time in my system.

But definitely use a service like Cable Company where at least you don't have cable burn in to deal with. That makes it much much much too painful.

I'm probably worse than you. I need to not have made any changes to the system in a couple of months. Mostly I can hear some changes within minutes of trying;--- The changes that take back and forth multiple times, push my sanity.--which are already pushed---.
About ten / twelve years ago my dealer wanted me to try this Res. Audio dac. I had a Theta Pro Basic2 at the time.At that time I was unaware of break-in.Mine sounded as good as his. Then he had me try this Encore dac. (The Pyramid looking one)---SAME thing;back and forth 20xs.I ended up buying a Theta gen5--- That, I knew right away.---I know dac's ain't cables but burn in and such are similar.The way I figure it; if it moves me right away;it's a keeper. Bringing a third item into the mix ?-- that's beyond me. 'Guess I have a short memory attention span?

Save yourself. Make a choice then never, ever go back and do it again. Comparing cables truly sucks and should only be done with one goal in mind ... to pick one then enjoy it forever.

Bob

Oldpet, I find doing amp and speaker auditions much harder work for obvious reasons. My process for audtioning cables is a threefold process: 1) Put one cable at a time in my system and do no serious listening untill the amount of time for burn-in that the company suggests is reached. 2) Use the same 6 to 8 recordings that I have been using for the last 30 years to measure differences/changes such as timbres, soundstage, imaging, air around players, liquidity, bass/prat, high end extentsion, and details. Normally, anything new in your system will sound striking at first, but no necessarly an improvement. 3) Finally, and I think it might be the most important step, after about three days of serious listening, go back to your reference and decide if new cable really is an improvement over your older cable. I have auditioned some cables that were so unpleasant I did not wait for the three days because I knew that I did not like them, so why bother. Other times, some cables were so right that I knew that they were superior to my reference, which turned out to be valid, but I always go back and put the original cable back in, just to validate my first impression.

I've done many cable comparisons over the years, while I may start off with short listening sessions and A/B comparisons I've found that making the best decision only comes from long listening sessions over several hours and days. I know the cable is a contender if I stop analyzing and instead just get lost in the music.
Another reason that it is important to do long listening sessions over several days is that cables often sound much better after having at least a 24 hour period in which to just sit and settle in.

Ideally, I like to listen to new cables for about a month before I form an opinion. I also like to have the cable burned in by someone like The Cable Burner Co..

Mine too are hard work, and I too question whether I'm hearing a difference. Don't know if you've lost it or never had it. :-) I know I've never been a GEA; I have to work to hear differences in cable, electronics, etc.

After conditioning it for days with my VCR driving an input on my preamp, I insert the new cable in the tape-monitor loop of my preamp. (This TM loop contains no electronics.) I determine if the insertion of the cable is audible. If it is, I reject it immediately. If it's not, it has passed the first test and I then replace my system cable with the new stuff, and also reinsert the 'old' cable to verify differences. It's still hard work.
.