This thread has been/is a 6 year party at John's place. Folks join in and enjoy the atmosphere and rapport, most read, some post. This thread is damn good fun! Like it or not, JN does that!
I think slate is a good plinth material, but I don't see it getting into a deck that's supposed to be 'cheap' and 'diy'. I hope I'm wrong, c'mon Harvey!
Over the past month anything to do with slate has been a downer here and elsewhere. Maybe if it stood on it's own two feet instead of trying to gatecrash other folks parties it would get on better, who knows?
2c |
Yo, lenco fools!
Added a Dynavector 17D III per Jean's recommendation. Wish I could say something negative (just for fun), but- the man from the great north is right again!!!
Excellent results- beautiful, moving, engaging MUSIC.
Thanks for keeping it positive Mario, David and Mr. JN! |
Mario, you've done good work here, both in bringing the original thread back to life and in helping to keep it going. This should not be a thankless task. THANK YOU! Dave |
Received an e-mail this morning from Mosin. While it is not my practice to “out” people’s private communications to me, I trust that he won’t see it as an ethical breech to state he’s taken exception to my characterizing him as an “avenger” along with its implied objectivity sacrifice. I tend not to publicly characterize a person’s stumbles unless prepared to acknowledge tendencies to fall short along those same lines myself. When emotional buttons get pushed, objectivity can be separated from my person just as easily as cash from my wallet at a vintage audio swap meet. I certainly bear Winn no ill will. Despite the lengths we go to make our individual human condition appear orderly and rational, in the end, we’re all floundering about in this life. If you have any doubt on this, just cast a brief glance at our world affairs and the people we choose to run it.
But does that mean we should shrug off the task in attempting to maintain or gain orderliness and civility in the conduct of these mini affairs in human events? Wouldn’t that just be some sop toward “keeping up appearances”? Perhaps, but I’m an old dog in terms interpersonal dealings and not prepared to jettison the “old tricks” in trying to get along.
It is very obvious that the “Home Despot II” thread has become a shell of its former existence. As stated earlier, this is due, in large part, to the ascendency of Lenco Lovers with all that sites inherent advantages. But I also believe that a large part of this withering has come about because potential posters have become “gun shy” because of the historical pyro-technics here.
So as I see it, those who would like to “bring down the mighty” (and we all know how tempting an impulse that is for many) for whatever reason, to some extent have succeeded. There have been periodic forays onto this thread by posters whose sole want, seemingly, is to take it and Jean Nantais down. Sometimes this is done crudely and overtly, sometimes it is attempted with sophisticated cloaking.
There’s no real recourse of moderation of this thread, outside of the posters that decide to join in. My attempts at moderation have often left me often in the middle, open to being perceived as a “suck up” by one side or a Judas by the other. I have no problem dealing with that as a residual dessert here.
It does seem on the question of the future direction of this thread, if indeed it is to have one, what you, the current reader, believe should be its future course. We’re all moderators here. And we’re all in this together.
- Mario |
Hi Malcolm,
You're right about generalizations. And my second sentence in the 2nd paragraph above should have contained wording that DF's experiment and conclusions were delivered as a postulation.
The whole field of plinthing is subject to asking if we'll ever really "be sure" about anything in this realm which has some definablly good empiricism and that will be trusted by all of the people all of the time.
But we might also be wary of accepting results of driven high-end marketers that, as a group, sometimes throw smokeballs our way.
There are no true experts in this new geologic/plinth field. As for Mosin's place in this discussion, it seems to me that objectivity is the first victim in the avenger's heart. This is not about truth, justice and the scientific way. He carries a perception of being slighted by JN ions ago. I got in the middle of that once - not this time.
- Mario |
Willbewill,
I agree with you. There are lots of ways to accomplish what we are trying to do. Let's say you have found a perfectly neutral material, assuming you can define neutral. If neutral means that the material imparts no sound of its own, then you need mechanical components that will stand up to very close scrutiny because every audible flaw will surface. That takes you to a higher plane which is to replace flawed components with corrected ones. If you don't, then you need a plinth that imparts some color, so that subtle inconsistencies in the components will be masked, so the final sound is pleasing. It's a catch-22, at best.
I am reminded of what a well-known industry insider once told me. "...there are almost no true professionals in home audio, regardless of the stature, size of their businesses, or supposed qualifications..." So, we learn what we can, and go from there.
Regards,
mosin
. |
Hi Mario
Not sure we can generalise with any of these 'stone' materials - there are many types of slate with differing qualities, the same can be said for: limestone (probably more so),sandstone, granites, marbles etc.
As concrete (I assume this is what is meant by cement) is made with OPC and an aggregate then is is also dependent on the qualities of said aggregate which could be any of the above materials or other e.g. lead shot. We might even get into the realms of Lime Concrete which would be different again.
Plus the LL experiment is only one sample, I would suggest that many more examples would need to be tested before one can state anything for certain.
I would also suggest that we need to dispose of the CLD 'blinkers' and accept that there may be other ways. I'm not even really sure what we are all doing with plinths actually is CLD in its true sense. |
A gent over at Lenco Lovers did some experiments using a cement filled plinth. The results had interfering transmission in the form of rumble that had to be eliminated with further secondary layering with a softer foam layering underneath.
His take on this was that sound (in the form of unwanted transmission) either passes through or is reflected off of dense material. It doesn’t simply vanish. The alternating of dense/soft layering as in the constrained plinth allows for an overall dissipation in transmission because of a scattering of unwanted interference because of the divergent pass-thru/ reflective properties of the materials used.
Before we all rush to give exalted properties to slate as plinth material (including myself), I would submit that it has more in common with this cement plinth than the constrained “sandwich”.
- Mario |
Harv,
If you use the Dutch aftermarket plinth, why couldn't you just glue it down with a thin layer of J-B Weld or other good epoxy? It is flat, and I believe that the interface would be adequate to maintain all the sonic qualities without detriment. By the way, I have glued metal to slate and it bonds very well.
mosin |
My whole idea with the slate layer was to add another layer to the classic, high mass, giant CLD plinth... I was picturing the slate as described by Mosin, as an infinitely finely layered cld..., but I still wanted to retain the qualities, and (in my eyes) beauty of the "Nantaisian' Lenco plinth...
I was considering what John brought up, regarding ringing... and I am seeking out a suitable damping material for the pressed steel itself for this reason.
Even if I eventually go with a solid layered slate plinth, i will still box it with oak, to maintain that classic wood plinth look.
Your debates are healthy, and raise valid questions, and useful perspective that we can all benefit from. Theory and practice are two different things... so none of us should get too emotional over any of this stuff yet... I will stick to getting emotional about the music! John, I will talk to my friend next week! Harv |
Thanks Dave,
I already have. I was just making an observation that many have made before. That's all.
mosin |
|
"The reveal at last.
No response needed.
You're your own undoing in this one, Mosin."
Actually, I believe not. I fail to see why some people blindly follow something they see on the Internet without even vaguely considering the possibility that it might be wrong. The fact is that many people are capable of thinking for themselves, and they use the Internet as a point of departure when it comes to such endeavors as building turntables. Those people are open to possibilities, and their work shows it. Others merely copycat something they have seen. Our hobby is filled with both types. Fortunately, the earnest ones prevail, and some of them are very creative. We advance audio by taking new directions inspite of those who would keep us stagnant. Innovation is the key to advancement, not the status quo.
I submit that we carefully consider everything we read.
mosin |
The reveal at last.
No response needed.
You're your own undoing in this one, Mosin.
- Mario |
Oupppps, I am out.
You guys, have fun. |
"It would seem that expansiveness on the DIY level also would lend to a give-and-take sharing of information. Instead we have two posts from you which “take on” Jean "line by line" as you say."
Actually, there are more than two posts. What I find offensive isn't so much the lack of fine detail by some posters, like me, but wrong details given by some in an empirical way. I have tried to provide some useful information, but I admit that I do not share every step of what I do with everyone. Of course, the more astute reader picks up on the erroneous, too. I simply point it out. We are told a lot by one who sells "wooden" plinths for a grand a pop, and we are to believe there is no agenda that dismisses other options? Is that fair?
"The palpable tenor of which is clearly not to share and gain, but to imperiously “red pencil” someone who you’re out for."
1. domineering in a haughty manner; dictatorial; overbearing: an imperious manner; an imperious person.
2. urgent; imperative: imperious need.
Which meaning? I am only pointing out mistakes when I see them, and I am gunning for no one, so I select the second meaning because I hate to see the new DIY'er waste effort going down a path when he could have more for the same time spent, and I am happy to help anyone in any way that I can.
"How long are you going to carry this Mosin?"
I will be finished when the air becomes clear of misinformation.
"Is it worth the load?"
Indeed, it is.
mosin |
Mosin,
It would seem that expansiveness on the DIY level also would lend to a give-and-take sharing of information. Instead we have two posts from you which “take on” Jean "line by line" as you say. The palpable tenor of which is clearly not to share and gain, but to imperiously “red pencil” someone who you’re out for.
How long are you going to carry this Mosin? Is it worth the load?
- Mario |
Mario,
Talking about outside the box ideas is my forte. Thanks for reminding me about how the thread started, though. Bear in mind that we are talking about DIY things, so I see the discussion of slate to be appropriate, and just because someone embarks upon an expansive project doesn't mean that nothing is to be discovered by those who are not so inclined. Nothing is created from a vacuum; things all start someplace, and sometimes that someplace is an esoteric one. You can do almost anything on the cheap, if you set your mind to it.
That said...
I'll take it line by line.
"The issue is not whether or not slate has internal resonances, but whether or not slate can draw away and kill noise from the 'table as effectively as a wooden plinth, and even if so, without recourse to extremely expensive/time-consuming procedures."
I placed a Litman pediatric stethoscope directly on slate within one centimeter of a mounted motor, and heard no noise. Try that with wood.
"Slate may have no internal resonances (I'll find out), but it is the metal of the top-plate - regular or Reinderspeter - vibrating against the slate, a hard surface - which will cause noise/resonances in the metal itself, without being drawn away, to cause problems."
Everything in the physical world has resonances of some sort. Whether one would hear noise from a top plate would depend entirely upon the construction techniques used, or lack thereof. Wood is much more problematic in that regard, as many know.
"There are no perfect surfaces. Imagine metal hitting wood: you get a dull thud. Imagine metal hitting stone: it sets up a high-frequency ringing."
How is relevant in any context applicable to turntable construction? It isn't. "Direct Coupling" should handle that hurdle, right? LOL
"Which is why I referred earlier to the ceramic ball phenomenon: an extremely hard material (harder than metal), which seemed like a good idea, but which in the end fabricated the illusion of increased detail rather than its reality (the metal-to-ceramic created a disparate-material barrier which filtered out the bass frequencies in order to unnaturally highlight midrange and high frequencies)."
This is totally application dependent, and apples and oranges when used in a discussion about slate. There is no correlation at all. Further, it simply is not true. What it may do is emphasize the inadequacies of a given platter, or other component, or not. More likely is that the surfaces are incompatible due to lack of research of the builder. Ceramics are designed to run on certain surfaces, but not all. Google is your friend on this point.
mosin |
I would not go against 1.5 - 2.0 slate with the jigsaw.
Wet saw with diamond blade is more like it IMO.
Or take it to a local shop - it might cost you around $100 for few straight cuts.
Mario,
got the router(2) , got the jigs(thanks to you.. remember).
I am good. All I need is time & this forum to guide me through.
Thank you and John for all your work and time to share with the rest. |
Ok, I have been following this. Are we talking about slate over plywood/mdf or just a slate (only) plinth?
Has anyone actually worked slate with woodworking tools? The only web reference that I found recommended a jigsaw.
Finally I would hope that anyone cutting slate at home is wearing a mask - I remember seeing something on TV about silicosis or miner's lung disease - which appeared as soon as miners began using steam powered drills. I recall that some miners went down after as few as 2 or 3 days on the drill.
Mike
PS: Wait 'til you see my new speakers :) |
Well Mosin,
Seems that a simul-post with Jean has left my caution moot. Seem's Jean is going to rock on, as well.
All best,
Mario |
Hi Mosin,
It is with no small degree of anticipation that many of us await the unveiling of your slate plinthed turntable, with hopes of a good, opened-source look inside. While I suspect that you may well be onto something with slate as a “superior” plinth material, I must call your attention to the main thrust of this thread and it’s earlier lost mother thread – “Building high end ‘tables cheap…”
While I think this thread should be open to alternatives and discourse, at the end of the day, if those alternatives leave us with a high degree of cost and complexity, it becomes a question of just how they fit in here under the original premise. I think you’ve been accommodated and we appreciate your views and expertise.
This thread’s main objective is to continue what Jean started four years ago;
to offer an extremely affordable recipe for folks of all skill levels to build a high-end turntable. It is a testament to Jean’s nailing this just right, that this recipe still holds true today. The job still can be done with hand tools and some rips and crosscuts for a trifling fee down at the local lumber yard. (Mr. JStark, you can get by with a borrowed $69 router and some patient set-ups with jigs.)
To be sure, this portal may have morphed into a bit of a redirection to center to Francois’ great Lenco dedicated site, but it still remains as a guidepost and kiosk for many to touch base with. Part of the draw over to Lenco Lovers is the ability to post pictures into a thread instantaneously – something not possible here. (I’ve often wondered how they get by over on Audiogon’s sister site – Photogon?)
Mosin, you are always most welcome over at Lenco Lovers and your designs and ideas will be given full field travel rights.
But in the end, this is still Jean’s thread and his platform. A lot of us still feel protective in allowing him this space to continue on as he see fit by way of thanks for turning us on. Nearly all of us check in regularly to get our fills of his wild newsletters from the wilds of Canada. Many of us like the fun flow of it all.
Mosin, I hope you will take this in the good spirit in which it is given.
All best,
Mario |
Well, joining in on this Slate-o-Fest, I'm arranging to have a slab cut so I can test it (thanks Harvey), and we'll see if there is "no contest". Already, the simple baltic birch-ply/MDF recipe has beaten the fabled Shindo plinth (at least in terms of drawing away and killing off resonances/noise acording to the Shindo owner, no direct comparison on other sonic grounds yet) which everyone was hot to imitate back in the early days of the thread; and beaten, and by a fair margin, the EMT 'tables which were only spoken of in hushed whispers by Garrard fans who treated Lencos with extreme condescension (as I also found out at phonophono in Berlin when I was there, "the Lenco is not a serious 'table"). The upshot is, that in order to help catch up to the Lenco Direct Coupled to a birch-ply/MDF recipe, it is now becoming practice to couple the EMTs to a high-mass plinth Lenco (an admission that the Giant Direct Coupled Lenco was in fact superior to an EMT as it is being used)! For those who haven't seen or handled an EMT, they really do make both the Lencos AND the Garrards look like cheap toys. But sonics is another matter.
The sound of a Giant Direct Coupled Lenco is truly astonishing, and we haven't even begun to measure its true standing/ranking, as it is very difficult to get the owner of a $50K belt-drive (or $20K DD) to agree to a comparison. There are ways to do this, but it is taking a lot of time, I'm working on it ;-). Then there are relatively cheap ways to greatly improve the Lenco which does not require herculean efforts: intense treatment of the main bearing (VERY effective), installing new bushings in the main bearing (tricky but VERY effective), platforms (essential, I favour acrylic over stone which makes a HUGE difference), footers, and so on. Addressing the use of acrylic, it is as effective, if not more so, to place it under the Lenco as in it, as it isolates in platform form (when bonded to stone) the Lenco and actually focuses up its sound/performance across the spectrum. The combinations and permuations possible in plinth-building are literally infinite, and it is easy to make the error that because something is "effective", it is the best solution. For instance, back in the day of Jeff Day's write-up of a Garrard bolted to a low-mass complex plinth, I wrote that the Garrard would sound good when bolted to a pile of dogshit, not because the dog-shit was superior or effective, but because the Garrard was inherently an incredible-sounding machine. Low expectations (especially on the part of an audiophile steeped in the belt-drive dogma) leads to incorrect conclusion (that low-mas/complex is the way to go). It suddenly became de rigueur for everyone to rush out and build complex low-mas plinths in imitation of the 6moons plinth, and the philosophy was changing around the world as well as vinyl audiophiles the world over began to turn their backs on high mass as a philosophy, reviving that old "mass stores energy to kill musicality" canard. I had to fight battles on forums around the world (in order that idler-wheel drives be heard in all their glory and not hamstrung, which would lead to incorrect conclusions) in order to get them to reconsider, have a second look, and make comparisons (and indeed now the high-mass CLD plinth dominates). Context (experience and comparisons) is necessary for judgments to be meaningful. Then there is the phenomenon of the "new", making the latest new recipe (plinths)/product (SETs)/philosophy (low power/high efficiency) the end-all and be-all until the dust settles and everyone begins to hear what is actually going on.
There is also a desire on the part of many people, not only audiophiles (but nevertheless many audiophiles), to favour the extremely difficult, complex and/or expensive process/product simply bcause it is difficult, complex and/or expensive. This does not mean necessarily superior (as the Shindo owner - another extremely time-consuming and complicated product even if wood - attests).
The issue is not whether or not slate has internal resonances, but whether or not slate can draw away and kill noise from the 'table as effectively as a wooden plinth, and even if so, without recourse to extremely expensive/time-consuming procedures. Slate may have no internal resonances (I'll find out), but it is the metal of the top-plate - regular or Reinderspeter - vibrating against the slate, a hard surface - which will cause noise/resonances in the metal itself, without being drawn away, to cause problems. There are no perfect surfaces. Imagine metal hitting wood: you get a dull thud. Imagine metal hitting stone: it sets up a high-frequency ringing. Which is why I referred earlier to the ceramic ball phenomenon: an extremely hard material (harder than metal), which seemed like a good idea, but which in the end fabricated the illusion of increased detail rather than its reality (the metal-to-ceramic created a disparate-material barrier which filtered out the bass frequencies in order to unnaturally highlight midrange and high frequencies). Such a ringing from metal slapping stone would imitate this phenomenon as well. I can see, on the other hand, that stone/slate is much heavier and less flexible than wood, so we'll see anyway what happens when I receive the slate.
Finally, is slate truly more effective than other types of stone - like marble or soapstone for instance - or is this simply another mythology arising, like that created by Origin Live for the RB-250 (marketing their product, which worked), created by Shindo for their fabled plinth (marketing their product, which is at least half the price, which worked), created by Garrarders concerning the grease-bearing (I and many others prefer the oil-bearing of the 401, yet grease-bearing Garrards continue to command the highest prices), and so on. It would be instructive to have a similar marble plinth built and see what happens. Marble does itself have certain interesting structural properties, and even more limestone, and sandstone, and so on. Soapstone is soft and easily worked, and has been used to build speaker cabinets by a company up in Scandinavia. Before the rise of the slate plinth, there was a granite plinth marketted in England (again) for the Garrard, which was highly-regarded.
But are any of these stone alternatives superior to Direct Coupling to a high-mass CLD wooden plinth? In order to find out, I'm having a slab cut large and thick enough to test out on its own without coupling to a plinth, but thin enough to afterwards be coupled to a wooden plinth. I'll mount my handy-dandy RS-A1 tonearm so I can swap back and forth instantly to get an accurate idea of what's going on. As always, you can depend on me to report honestly, if slate is as incredible as everyone makes it out to be, then I'll incorporate it in future plinths.
Getting to Reinderspeter's top-plate, this does indeed address one of the Lenco's main weaknesses, that [relatively] flimsy pressed top-plate: the thick and strong steel will be harder to move, will not flex nearly as much, and couples VERY effectively to a wooden (or stone) plinth. Traditionally, simply stacking up audiophile ideas (such as adding Reinderspeter's top-plate to slate) leads to sonic disaster, systems have to be balanced. But, it will be easy to simply marry a Reinderspeter top-plate to the slate slab I am having made. Of course, this all takes time, so be patient!!
Getting back to other issues, hi Mariusz, don't worry, I'm not accusing you of promoting belt-drives, my adding a belt-drive project to my long list of projects reflects my support of all turntable designs, which is why I am investigating, for instance, the issue of quartz-locking versus servo-controlled DDs, and the issue of torque (a bare minimum is necessary) versus inertia (improtant to have enough inertia to overcome the motor's sonic signature/imperfections). The Rotary Platform is truly a beauty, with a solid brass platter which is i 1/2" thick at the rim, and some 3/16" thick!! Feels like much more than 15 pounds, in the same way the Lenco's 8-9 pound platter feels like much more than that. I'm actually looking forward to hearing it once done, I LOVED my Maplenoll turntable back in the day, which amongst belt-drives was King for SLAM, bass and PRaT (which is why Walker took it as his basic platform for the pricey Walker turntables). Until I tripped over the litle Garrard SP-25 in a Helsinki fleamarket, that is. I'll be coupling it to a high-mass plinth, as always, haven't heard a 'table yet which didn't benefit from this. The Technics SP-10 MKII mythology, for instance, already in the long-ago said that a minimum 60-pound plinth was necessary to extract performance from it.
I've recently gone back to the RS-A1/Denon DL-103"E", that is a Denon redone by phonophono in Berlin, and Boy is this the most perfect match, still, that I have found for it, though there are strengths in some other matches. The phonophono '103 has MUCH better bass, detail, and high frequencies than the conical-tipped one, and is less bright to boot!!
Anyway, have fun with your repsective projects all, getting close to realizing the Reinderspeter Project, and working on getting that slate slab done!! In the meatime, my "regular" Giant Direct Coupled Lenco continue amaze and delight!! LOVE the Trumpets of Leipzig LP (Baroque) I picked up for 25 cents recently!! |
Mosin, it is cool. Everything is peachy.
P.S
$300 router, $30 bit, $3 worth of glue & 33 cent pencil
is all I need.
Total = $333,33 |
"Well, I have the water jet. All I am missing is the CNC and $300,000 to prove you wrong. LOL"
I figured I had better put that in my post just to cover myself. ;) |
Well, I have the water jet. All I am missing is the CNC and $300,000 to prove you wrong. LOL |
Hello again,
"Is slate better then combo of MDF, ply baltic birch ???"
There is absolutely no contest. Slate has properties none of those materials can match. Wood can be used to make a very nice plinth material, but slate has it beat.
"What I do know is that making plinth for Lenco or any other turntable from slate can and probably is pain in the A$$ to execute successfully and effectively."
True, but worth the trouble.
Using slate is a simple case of careful planning, and proficiency with tools. It is definitely not a material for those who do "get by" work, however. Still, I believe it can be handled by most who possess rudimentary skills, and have a few decent tools at their disposal. A $300,000 water jet CNC and a crew to run it does help. ;)
mosin
|
John, I am not promoting belt drives or anything like that.
All I am saying is, that :
plinth design is extremly important
If possible, more mass is better IMO
wood works and is DIY friendly
it is more practical and economically a better choice
Is slate better then combo of MDF, ply baltic birch ???
I do not know.
What I do know is that making plinth for Lenco or any other turntable from slate can and probably is pain in the A$$ to execute successfully and effectively. That is of course only my opinion.
|
I was worried also about (i) how to bolt my Triplanar onto a slate surface, and (ii) whether the slate surface of the tonearm mount can be made perfectly flat and plane parallel to the turntable chassis. If I did it, I would use the "Reinderspeter" (4mm-thick flat steel) top-plate that I recently purchased, and that engenders another question (mentioned by Hxt1) of how to affix the plate to the slate surface, which again has to be as flat as possible. (Do you have an opinion on how to do this?) I am anxious to see the results of your own efforts to incorporate slate in a plinth. |
Lew,
A few points... First, the cost is inline due to the reasons I stated earlier. Second, the meaning of "well coupled to the platter bearing" is different from what everyone has come to accept. The reason is because the constrained layer nature of slate is so efficient that sounds actually change when they travel through it. They don't go far with thick slate, so the coupling becames sheerly a mechanical one. If the mount won't allow the tonearm to become misaligned, it has done its job because there are none of the resonance coupling issues that exist with wood and other materials. It really is that different. That said, Weiss will make one however you like because slate can be cut in virtually any way you can imagine...for a price. I don't know about the other guy, though.
mosin |
So, Mosin and Hxt1, based on your personal experiences with building from slate, it would seem that the prices of the two commercial products are not at all out of line. Would you agree? (Of the two, I favor Jonathan Weiss' plinth, because it is far more massive than the one made in Wales, but I was not so satisfied with the way they treat the tonearm mount. It seems to just sit in a hole in the top deck and may not be well coupled to the platter bearing therefore.) |
Everything you have said is true, Mosin... Despite the preparation, discussions with the shop, measurements... There were still 2 complete failures bfore the third go round. When i got the "correct" one home, the table still wouldnt seat properly! After much grinding, swearing, testing, swearing,grinding, swearing VERY loudly.... I finally got the thing together.... Slate is not easy to work with, and yet i want to do it all over again..... Insanity. |
"There are all sorts of problems with slate - marriage of surfaces - "
True, but it is possible, as you will soon see for yourselves.
"Lenco-to-slate (regardless of the CLD nature of slate, it is still stone and so hard, which means metal slapping against stone as no surface is perfect) and slate-to-plinth - the inability to Direct Couple"
Again, possible...just a different discipline, but not as different as one might imagine. However, it doesn't nail easily. ;)
"The traditional recipe, i.e. wood, still represents the best real-world solution."
Wood is probably the easy way. Still, there are merits to slate that wood cannot begin to imitate. Think of slate as the ultimate constrained layer because it is that. It isn't a project DIY material for the faint hearted or rank beginners, though. It has the curious property of becoming an advanced project which requires extensive planning.
. |
To join in on the discussion of alternate drive systems, I want to remind everyone that I have never written that one cannot obtain good results from a belt-drive, just that they are inherently inferior to the other two drive systems (once the bugs have been worked out), and that from an engineering point of view - that is engineering TO A PRICE, as engineering is meant to be - belt-drive is a failure as it requires a much larger investment to achieve idler-standards (assuming they can be achieved) than a sonically equivalent idler-wheel drive. I've often been on record praising the AR 'tables, Roksans, and such-like. For producing decent 'tables on a budget, the old platter/bearing, motor/elastic band solution can't be beat, nor profits, which is why they dominate/d (coming soon to a theater near you ;-)).
In this vein, I just picked up an irresistable belt-drive: a very rare "Unity 1 Rotary PLatofrm", which is as impressive as it sounds. It sports a solid brass platter, with most of the mass concentrated on the rim, which weighs in at 15 pounds! Worth its weight in gold. It is fixed to a truly superb main bearing, made of a sort of steel of extreme hardness, as neither it nor the bushings show any sign of wear whatsoever. Something is laser-imprinted into the metal of the shaft. Other than that, it is a classic belt-drive with a motor and belt. Story is it was manufactured in the '80s, was too expensive to manufacture (brass alone worth its weight in gold) and so carried a higher price-tag than people were willing to swallow, and the fellow went bankrupt. But, some day when I'm done with other experiments, I'll rebuild it into a plinth, polish up that brass, have an acrylic mat made, and set it up with a tonearm. It'll be fun, and hopefully musical!
There are all sorts of problems with slate - marriage of surfaces - Lenco-to-slate (regardless of the CLD nature of slate, it is still stone and so hard, which means metal slapping against stone as no surface is perfect) and slate-to-plinth - the inability to Direct Couple, not to mention the long list of perils listed by Mosin and so on - but I'll give it a go when I have time (still working on Reinderspeter's top-plate). The traditional recipe, i.e. wood, still represents the best real-world solution, and though this requires quite a large platform, the Direct Coupling absorbs the noise away from the 'table AND the vinyl (magically ;-)) to excavate the mighty Lenco/Idler and DD and even belt-drive potential. One gets used to the size: way back when I built the Canadian Rustic I thought it was huge (now seems quite puny), then came the Giant Lenco which now in the context of an even larger plinth (and certain humongous belt-drives) looks just reasonable, and now I have the Ultra Lenco which now seems just normal. Of course, carrying it is a bitch, but I wouldn't want to sling a Walker into my car either!!
I hooked up a pristine H-K Citation Twelve Deluxe (powerful vintage dual-mono SS amplifier) to my Yamaha NS-690s, hooked THAT up to my Ultra Lenco/restored main bearing, fired up Nine Inch Nails "Pretty Hate Machine" and thought I was being hit by an earthquake (I rushed to the volume control) the house shook so hard!! The dog ran for cover. Astonishing how much powerful and DEEP bass (like fleets of submarines sailing at depth among depth charges in my living room) the Lenco can force smaller speakers (the Yamahas are average-sized 3-way stand-mounters) to produce!! Meanwhile, all the itty-bitty details continue to remain clear above it all.
Anyway, have fun all, more to report soon-ish! |
Hi Mario,
good to hear from you. Always a pleasure.
Thanks for understanding. That was my point exactly.
We can all gain from each other experiences.
(I am sure my MMF-7 arm-board looks familiar. LOL)
My take on use of wood, MDF or ply. is that it is relatively easy to work with and effective. Its only drawback is that you need mass to get the most out of it ( For truly great design I would not go below 65 pounds). I sounds great on triple layered plinth too (I have tried that - experiment is more like it) but it leaves you only the after taste that won't go away. I am no builder or anyone that should be taken seriously in TT design or someone that has the know-how. I build TT for fun and my own satisfaction and use materials & techniques that make most sense and are within my reach and skills.
Using slate might be too time consuming and costly to make it right. Slate is difficult to work with and fragile. It can get complicated and fast if your design isn't anything but simple. I personally would not take upon myself to use it in my projects. I do however have access to a 'Soapstone' and guy who can and will turn my vision into reality. But how would that work in Lenco plinth design - sound wise is everybody's guess. But it might be something I may explore in the future.
Cheers and
happy listening
Mariusz |
"Oh Lew, I believe Jean's use of use of acrylic is not aboard any of his plinths, but is used in conjunction with marble as an "underfoot" base."
Guys,
My last turntable used acrylic over wood, and it is quite effective.
mosin |
Hi Everyone,
Well it certainly seems like old times a'brewin here.
Mr. JStark wrote:
"I do apologize if some of you find it not on topic.
just sharing some ideas that worked for me. Not a Lenco project but some techniques will be implemented in that project as well."
No apologies needed at all on this. Your experiences in other facets of plinth building or other "Non-Lenco" areas are quite welcome.
Not far back in the posting, Jean and I were discussing the merits of servo-controlled Direct Drives. So go for it, by all means.
After reading a good bit about the slate upsurge here and elsewhere, I'm certainly rethinking my intended use of a doctored marble surround in a traditional Baltic ply/mdpb plinth. The reclaimed marble, which I have tons of, was going to get internal bore-outs with epoxy fills before fitment to a reduced size traditional plinth. However these heroics with unknown prospects in reducing marble's resonant ringing properties might not be worth the effort.
Maybe a good compromise in choosing a slate quarry would be something along a "Baltic" pedigree. :)
Oh Lew, I believe Jean's use of use of acrylic is not aboard any of his plinths, but is used in conjunction with marble as an "underfoot" base.
Sail on, guys!
- Mario |
Lew,
To give a bit of background, I'll take you back several years. My first e-mail to Jean expressed an interest in building a turntable from cement or machine grout. I abandoned that project shortly after, but the idea always stuck in my mind. Later, when slate hit the scene, I remembered the idea, and looked for similarities. There were many, and working with slate appeared at first glance to be easier. Shortly after that, I started my current project which makes heavy use of slate.
What I have learned, so far:
1) If you combine plinth materials, (I haven't) be sure to study which one should go where. I say this because slate is astonishingly effective, and it should be used in those areas that generate the most noise and vibration.
2) Building with slate isn't an easy road to travel. If your project is complex, there are so many issues to be aware of that it boggles the mind. Is it flat enough? What glue should be used? The list goes on. Also, using slate is a lot harder and slower to work than wood or acrylic. Still, it can be done with normal tools, unless you require extremely precise cutouts in your design.
3) Most mistakes are expensive ones. A small error can quickly take you past the point of no return, so be very methodical in your approach.
4) Slate is the most effective constrained layer material that I have ever used. I mounted a motor directly on the surface, and could not hear it with a Litman pediatric stethoscope from less than a centimeter away. It is very impressive in that regard, but not dead like lead.
5) Soft slate works great. If you happen to lightly chip it, it is easier to fix than some harder material.
6) It's pretty, too. ;)
Regards,
mosin |
Mosin, Yes I remember quite well the details of the argument between the Welsh and the US slate plinth-makers. The photo of the slate roof going to seed was a real hoot for its irrelevance and scare tactic. And I agree, from an empirical reasoning, one would think that a soft slate might actually be superior for plinths, even assuming that Welsh and PA slate differ appreciably in that quality. Personally, I don't have a problem with the price of these products; one always has the option of not buying and of DIY.
What struck me about Hxt1's idea of putting slate over MDF/plywood is the similarity to Jean's recent brief mention of using acrylic on top of an MDF/plywood plinth. There is a lot known about the properties of matter that relate to absorption and reflection of transmitted energy between dissimilar materials. One needs to know the values of certain constants for each of these materials to figure out whether these expts have potential. OR build and listen. |
Sorry for typo. Pics are here. Base will look the same, just thinner. Stand was purchased from a company that also builds TT. Materials and 2 stage system will be used in Lenco project. |
This is one of my favorite threads to read with sort of anticipation what you guys are going to come up next.
I love to experiment myself, however finding time is a real problem for me.
I would like to see this thread to be as clean as possible and avoid another shut down by AgoN. (lot of info. down the drain)
Having a different opinion is always refreshing and I am all for it. Person reading this or any other thread won't be force to look at the subject from prefixed point of view but will be expose to the matter from two extreme sides of the argument or view. At the end you are given a choices.....and what it is true I leave it to You - Reader.
Now, to get back to the topic.
I have no expirience with slate or any other natural stone used in building turntables but I do agree with Johnnantais
in regards to mass as a solution (shortcut) to stellar performance and base for Lenco.
My own projects are as slow as a snail but I am getting some work done. MMF 7 with bamboo butcher block plinth, MOERCH UP - 4 tonearm and DENON 103R is long done and sounds way better then original version - hands down. Turntable "X" is almost finish ( I will upload some pictures to "my system" later tonight). The "X" is a combination of quality parts and different techniques are implemented to make it work.
Here are some of them:
Platter: Machined 67mm acrylic contoured to match record surface (indent for record label)
Bearing: Large diameter inverted fixed spindle with polished ceramic ball on Teflon thrust plate.
Motor: Belgium manufactured precision hi torque DC motor
Drive: Mono filament, non elastic drive belt
Plinth: 10 layers 3/4inch each. 5 layers of HQ MDF and 5 layers of HQ(13) Baltic birch.
Motor is not in contact with the plinth ( Almost like MMF7 design) to reduce vibration transmission & noise.
Arm-board is made out of acrylic (0.5inch also oddly shaped)
Separate base made out of the same materials as the plinth. (6 layers. Also a stand for the motor)
Iso-pads used between top 3 and bottom 3 layers of the base. Heavy brass cones for TT (3).
Last but not least, a dedicated stand - 95 pound (aluminium and marble. Fill-able with sand if desire)
Total weight - about 200 pounds.
I can not tell you if it is going to sound any good but I sure hope so.
I do apologize if some of you find it not on topic.
just sharing some ideas that worked for me. Not a Lenco project but some techniques will be implemented in that project as well. I left a Lenco build-of for last becouse a expirience and know how is little on this side of the face but after two smaller projects I am hoping to gain basic skills and knowledge to use in Lenco table building expirience.
Cost of this table is in the region of $1200 and not including arm and cartridge. Arm will be also MOERCH UP - 4 and DENON 103R cart. (arm-boards on all tables are made in such a way that switching arms is fast and easy = cheap)
Next time a little more on all out assault design for my Lenco project.
Cheers
Mariusz S. |
Cool! Mrjstark! I was hoping to hear something like this from the onset... I for one have vowed not to spend over $1000 on any one component (to maintain harmony in the home) so that means a lot of used, and a lot of DIY gear.
Apples and Oranges are just that , Apples and oranges... though I admit, after a lifetime of eating apples, one probably would naturally pine for a taste of orange..... or something like that!
Anyways, I like the sound of the slate plate so far, even though it is soft, and green,,, good point RE: vibration damping Mosin! |
Home "made" or "professionally" molded to the desire shape, weight & form........makes very little difference IMO.
What counts is that you all have tried (in its own way) to improve on already great design - "Idler - the performance/economy CHAMP" , and that's what counts.
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My opinion only
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I too am againts overcharging fellow audiophiles/music lovers. But it should not be a mystery that some are in it for the money. And the last group that is a little tricky.......to figure out (at least for me). Real audiophiles with real talent and skills that figure out how to do both: support their hobby(s), passion and put the bread on their family table.
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"Hxt1, No need to apologize here for what you may have written on the LL forum. The tete a tete between the Welsh and Pennsylvania slate deck makers on the Vinyl Asylum was pretty hostile and revealed two fairly closed minds. I am sure you slate-ers can all just get along."
The problem between this pair of slate providers, as I see it, is that one of them accuses the other of selling inferior slate which I assure you is untrue. He even goes so far as to feature a photograph that he borrowed from a roofing seller's website to supposedly demonstrate the inferior nature of his competitor's product. The truth is that the photograph is unfounded for a variety of reasons. For one, its origin is unknown, and if it is indeed of a Pennsylvania slate roof, its age cannot be established. In any event, it is not evidence because it may be from a Tri-State area where acid rain took a particularly harsh toll, and the fact is that there are scores of roofs in Pennsylvania, New Jersey and New York that have survived over one hundred years, not to mention neighborhood sidewalks which would be a more fair comparison. But then, we aren't building roofs or sidewalks, are we? No, we are making turntables which see only indoor use, so the entire point is moot. What we are left with is the sonic quality of various types of slate, and no one has ever demonstrated a difference one way or the other. One would probably be safe in presuming the heavier plinth to be more effective, and perhaps the one of softer stone. Why would the softer variety be better? Well, if you consider slate as a constrained layer material, which it is, then resonances would travel through those layers slower and more diffused than in the harder variety, but probably not enough to make a difference. In the end, it may come down to sheer mass and design. So why is either so expensive? That may be a simple economic reason. Water jet time is very expensive (that is how those plinths are cut), some samples of slate crack and are wasted, and some sellers pay extra for selected clear grained slate. It's a case where one should carefully scrutinize the product, and go with his best judgment, in my opinion.
Regards,
mosin |
Yeah, bottom line is: "I want the moon, but can't afford it"! I have moved on, but can't believe that no one has yet commented on what a cool idea my 'modular plinth' is!!!!
I won't hold my breath! |
Hxt1, No need to apologize here for what you may have written on the LL forum. The tete a tete between the Welsh and Pennsylvania slate deck makers on the Vinyl Asylum was pretty hostile and revealed two fairly closed minds. I am sure you slate-ers can all just get along. |
My apologies in advance to Darren for my brash, abrasive stance on this.
I would obviously be buying a slateplinth instead of DIY if I had the $$$$.
Regardless of the reviews, I think they look great, the wife thinks they look great, and after hearing common slate in action, I am sure they sound FANTASTIC!! My experiment is not intended in ANY way to compare to the original, highly reviewed Welsh Slatedeck in any way whatever. Darren has established a well-earned positon in the marketplace by creating a great product, to very high standards. I simply decided to give something vaguely similar a go in my own back yard. I felt as though I wre building a wagon, and suddenly the Head engineer at Rolls Royce was on the phone, that's all....
Sheesh, I'm really truly sorry for being so snitty about the whole thing
Humbly (for a change) Harvey. |
WOW! A lot of emotion surrounding these slate plinths!!! I hope no one on this forum is marketing anything!!!! I seem to have really ruffled some feathers over at LL with my less than genial response to the UNSOLICITED advice heaped on me concerning my lo-buck slate experiment... I would consider the whole thing a big mistake if it didn't sound so damn good!!!
I said it at the other forum, and I will say it here, at the end of the day, we're talking about a piece of slate, with a hole in it. If someone wants to go all steak and lobster about it so they can justify charging $1000 at the door, so to speak, good on 'em!!! |
"Mosin, that's a teaser and no mistake! :) Backstage Pass has a successor?"
Colin,
Indeed it does. This is my most ambitious project ever, and I hope it works as expected. I tried my very best to break new ground on this one, and the big question is whether the ground is firm enough to stand on. I believe it is, but I will know for certain when the needle hits the groove, won't I? In any event, this is a fun hobby because we not only enjoy ourselves, but we learn things. I have learned a lot with this one.
I'll share what I found out with you guys in a month or so, but the turntable is a study in mass, inertia, isolation, friction, materials, speed control, assembly technique and a couple of other areas. Some of it may prove useful to you guys.
Regards,
mosin |
Hi Harvey, I'll give it a go and report on it, looks like the snowstorms are coming to an end and Spring is about to make an appearance!!
Mosin, we'll keep an eye out for further idler developments. One fellow (hi Stephen) e-mailed me a suggestion: a peripheral ring-clamp for the Garrard a la VPI and as suggested originally on a certain vintage 'table website (can't remember the link now out in the Isolated Country, the one with pages for the SP10 MKII, Thorenses and so on). Anyway, I'll see what can be done once I've made the measurements and consulted with a machinist. Though the Garrard has more torque than the Lenco, it's not a huge difference, having perhaps 20% more torque, so extra mass might amount to only an extra 4 pounds or so to even out the result and make it approach/match and perhaps surpass the Lenco results. The MASSIVE Garrard bearing can certainly take the extra weight, just make sure that the 'table remains level so as not to wear the bushings out on one side. Of course, if a ring-clamp, it can't foul the Garrard controls, measurements must be closely calculated.
On this subject, I cannot emphasize enough just how important Direct Coupling to a high mass is!! I point again to the beating the Sony 2250 served up to the Technics SP-10 MKII in identical plinths (i.e. size and make-up of burch-ply/MDF), despite the Sony's significantly inferior torque. The Sony can be Direct Coupled, the Technics cannot. And the difference between Direct Coupling to a 60-pound plinth and Direct Coupling to a 30-pound plinth is MUCH moroe than a simple doubling of sound quality, the Lenco crossing over into a whole new and unbelievable league.
On this point of Direct Coupling and mass vs inertia, AND quartz-locking, I also cannot believe just how musical the quartz-locked Technics SP-25 is when Direct Coupled to a high-mass CLD plinth. So this makes me wonder: why is the Technics SP-10 MKII so [relatively] unmusical (and inferior in every audiophile sense) to the Sony 2250, and the SP-25, also quartz-locked, ends up being so musical? Given the latest Garrard vs Lenco experiments/experiences, I point to the issue of torque vs inertia. Not only can the SP-10 MKII not be Direct Coupled, it also has MUCH more torque than the Sony 2250. But then the SP-25, which is also quartz-locked, CAN sound musical. So quartz-locking is not inherently a-musical, as I previously thought. What is happening is that the SP-10 MKII's drive system is, like the Garrard's, SO powerful it is imposing its sound on the music, resulting in the quartz-locking being audible (not a pretty picture). Given more inertia (a more massive platter, with mass concentrated on the rim) and Direct Coupling (which absorbs/eliminates noise AND further immobilizes the 'table), the SP-10 MKII should preserve its advantages (all that torque/control and superb build quality) and achieve a high level of [relative] musicality. As to Relative Musicality, a Giant Direct Coupled Lenco has to be heard to be believed, and to understand just how musically-powerful vinyl can be, I believing the Lenco is currently at the top of this heap as well.
Further on this point, the previous owner of the Shindo Garrard is also the owner of a second-from top-of-the-line Maplenoll with massive platter (40-pound graphite/lead platter) and Corian body (his current 'table), and like me years ago when I first heard the humble Garrard SP-25, understood within three minutes just how superior the Lenco was (in my case, I understood, given just how humble the SP-25, that the idler-wheel principle was superior). The Lenco has its powerful 1800-rpm motor and an eight-pound platter. While the Lenco's motor is not as powerful as the Garrard's, not too much can be made of this as the Lenco's motor is still very powerful, spinning at 1800 RPM and weighing in at roughly 4 pounds, and once actually having lifted an 80-pound Lenco off one foot when I accidentally engaged it at 78 rpm from stopped!
Anyway, I'll have to get my hands on an SP-10 once again and see if, after all, something can be done to Direct Couple it, and see about a ring-clamp or substitue heavy platter.
Finally, on the Budget Reference System Front, I cannot believe the results I am currently getting from my current system, which was assembled on a hunch: of course the Ultra Lenco (even larger than usual), followed by the MAS 282 tonearm matched to my Grado Woody (they ALL have the same basic character of super-exciting dynamics, irresistable musicality, retrieval of air and resonances which allows accurate identification of acoustic instruments, wonderful vocals, powerful bass, and so on) and the Sonus/Mayware/Satin M-117HZ, then via the Sony 2000F preamp to the Dynaco ST-120 (!!!) and out via the Klipsch Heresy speakers. We're back in the Kundalini Effect days, and here I now stay, afraid of messing with this latest recipe to achieve the Kundalini Effect. Come to think of it, the last time I had this effect/sound, I also used the MAS 282/Grado combination. The MAS seems to be the secret ingredient in achieving Full Grado Potential, but I'll do further experiments and see if there are alternatives. I also managed it with a Denon DL-103 on various tonearms, particularly the SME V. Anyway, I cannot believe just how wonderful the little Dynaco - available usually for $200 - is via the Klipches (running somewhere arornd $400 usually)!! The magic is stupendous, the SLAM limitless, the delicacy endlessly inviting, and informationally superb, if not state of the art (perhaps the Sonus/Satin will give me this, I'll check it out). A Super Budget System for peanuts!!
On the subject of the Denon DL-103, I was shocked, in a high-resolution system (tubes/Quad ESL63s), at just how vastly superior the Denon DL-103"E" (elliptical tip, new aluminum cantilever) from phonophono in Berlin was to the regular '103, in the bass as well as in terms of detail/clarity, which was in an utterly diferent league. And the Denon magic was completely there to boot. Highly recommended, send your 103s to phonophono for retipping!!
Anyway, have fun all, winter's almost over!! |
