Bryston BP-17 cubed or Benchmrk LA4 Preamp

Congrats on using the Paragon System E. I have one as well and is extremely well built and crafted. Tough to beat at triple the price

After all this preamp testing, my pocketbook is a bit lighter but I have  learned a lot.

The smoothest, sweetest, most pleasing sound is from a 1980 vintage Paragon System E tube preamp that I bought years ago new. I recently rebuilt the external power supply, replacing everything except the transformer. The caps were out of value and I needed to size a resistor to supply the 12V heaters. I installed six new Genalex Gold Lion ECC83/B759 tubes to replace the vintage Tungsram 12AX7 tubes that were the original equipment.

I've been using this set-up now for about two weeks. Really sweet and articulate strings and female voices. Beautiful. And I think it has passed the long term smoke test.

But... there is no remote volume control!

I put the Levinson no 38s into duty as a volume control . It has exquisite control of volume (0,1dB steps !). And it does the conversion from single ended RCA signal inputs to true balanced outputs is done insoide the no 38s! Two problems solved.

The end of the journey.

Now I'm off to create more problems for myself.....

You should try the Holo Audio Serene preamp. I have the LA4 and the Serene. They are almost identical, except the Serene is a bit warmer but not too warm.

Well, here's an update on my exceedingly frustrating search for a new preamp.

I've listened all month to the used Bryston BDP-17 cubed I bought a month ago, It took a while, but I've concluded that it too produces a sibilance that I just can't stand to listen to for long, even if this sibilance is far less noticable than in the Pass preamp.

I put the Levinson no 38s back into the system. Bingo, great sound, no sibilance (unless it is on the recording). But it is 30+ years old. Listener bias?

The sibilance from the Pass and Bryston is most noticable on the early Decca LPs of Wagner's Ring, particularly the ones that were recorded in the late 1950s to mid 1960s. It was recorded in a former dance hall by John Culshaw and conducted by Georg Solti. The first LPs from this era had a lot of sibilance and some screechiness on voices. It is listenable with the 38s, intolerable with the BP-17 cubed and the XP-12.

Maybe the 38s is missing some detail that the others pick up. So they might be more true to the source. I do know that the 38s creates music is can listen to without worrying about when the next insult to my ears will come. It stays, for now.

I've not tried a tube preamp. I have an 80s Paragon System E preamp. I have completely rebuilt the power supply with all new components. I'm now using this amp as a phono preamp. I enjoy the smooth mellow sound I get on LPs with this preamp. 

I will temporarily replace the 38s with the Paragon E. If I really like it, I will find a way to keep it in the system as my preamp. But since it is quite old, I am also searching for a modern day tube preamp, such as the Linear Tube Audio microZOTL preamp.

The big downside of the Paragon is that there is no remote. I'll need to find a workaround for that.

@kevemaher I find it interesting but not shocking that the Pass preamp did not pair well with your Bryston amp. System synergy and how it sounds to you is ultimately what is most important.  I was considering a Pass XP-12 preamp to pair with my Pass amp and while I'd expect the pairing to work well, I ultimately went in a completely different direction.  I purchased the Revelation Raven tubed preamp, the brainchild of Don Sachs and Lynn Olson, from Spatial Audio and it brings a big smile to my face every time I listen to music.

Keven,

I had the same experience with a Pass XP-12.  I was so happy that I didn’t sell my Bryston BP-26.  That’s the second time I’ve replaced a Bryston piece with another highly regarded replacement, only to put the Bryston back in my system.  Thankfully I’m done upgrading now.

Toolbox149

@jc4659 

This is a very long overdue update. I bought a Bryston BP-17 cubed last week. I'm head over heels pleased.

What happened to the used Pass XP-12? Right our of the box, t heard a lot of sibilance and other high frequency screeching. I sent it to the factory. Pass found that two gain modules were out of spec. They replaced them with the current gain modules. After it returned, it still was shrill. I sold it.

The BP-17 cubed works so much better in my system. It is definitely warmer than the XP-12. My amplification chain consists of the Bryston BP-17 cubed, their 2.5b cubed power amp and Revel f208 speakers.

This is a surprising result, not one that I had anticipated, but one that I am quite pleased about.

Congrats on the Pass XP-12!  Let us know how it sounds in your system. The Apt Holman preamp was legendary in its day.

I bought a Pass Labs XP-12, used for about the same price as the Bryston and Benchmark preamps. I will get it tomorrow.

The reason for the switch to Pass is that the buzz around the Pass gear is that ii is warm(ish) sounding. The other two are probably neutral. I'm looking for a bit of warmth, so...

I replaced the 38s with an old Apt preamp, I have recapped the PS. Yes, it sounds different....better to my amazement. Vocals and strings are a bit clearer and the entire sound is smoother, with no audible edges (the Apt is from 1978!). Only downsides are no balanced lines (XLR) and no remote. I've made a special cable to change male XLR to male RCA. No ground loop hum. But the lack of a remote is a bit of a pain.

Anxious to hear the XP-12!

I could try this test using the volume control on my Oppo BDP-105 to play digital media and files. This seems to be a good way to estimate the sonic signature of the 38s.

I want to stay analog all the way with my other sources - a tuner and two cartridges - so I will only use the above for testing. I need a control amp to select the different analog and digital sources. After the preamp, my system is all analog (EQ, crossover and speakers). The only digital components are the Oppo and the BDA-3.

@kevemaher If it has a volume control, have you tried connecting the BDA-3 directly to your amp? You would need to turn the gain way down before doing this. The sound will tell you which direction, warmer or more neutral than the M-L, you are looking to go.  As mentioned above, The Benchmark LA-4 is "neutral" as is the Holo Serene preamp. The tubed LTA microZOTL is another excellent option. While I never heard the Pass XP-12 it is probably very good but maybe a bit warmer than the ones mentioned above. Not sure how you feel about Ayre preamps but they are  also on the slightly warmer side and the reliability is up there with Pass electronics.

Now, I've been looking at the Pass XP-12. It has all the features I am interested in.

I've read that it is warmer sounding than the Benchmark and Bryston preamps. Will it match well with my Bryston 2.5B^3 power amp?

New ones are at my price limit, but I can pick up a used model for about the price of a used BP-17^3.

Opinions on the warmth of the Pass XP-12? Thanks.

@kevemaher sorry, but I’ve got zero experience with Levinson.  If you’re looking for  warmth, I’m not sure either of these will give it to you.  I think the Bryston is even cooler sounding than the Benchmark.

I have owned a lot of Bryston gear. Including the BP20 preamp (not the same level as the BP-17).  Bryston always gives me a bit of fatigue. Even the BP-17 and the 4B3 with Vanderstream Treo speakers had that hardness on top that I knew so well from the Bryston SST line I had.

If you want a neutral preamp, The LA4 is amongst the very best at ANY price. I would use the LA4 with any amp I owned at any price. Now if you want colour then the LA4 is not for you. The LA4 will sound like your other gear.

I use the LA4 with my Sanders Magtech amp at the moment, no fatigue. The LA4 was also used the following amps:

• CODA #16
• CODA #8
• KRELL DUO 175XD
• Parasound A21+
• Benchmark AHB2

All of the amps sounded great with the LA4.

BTW - I owned the Bryston BHA-1 headphone amp. I would think that this amp is better than the amp in the BP-17. I found the BHA-1 fatiguing. In comparison the Benchmark HPA4 preamp (I stupidly sold) was state of the art for a neutral sound (no fatigue).

At that price level I’d take a hard look at the Linear Tube Audio MicroZOTL preamp that uses tubes but they last forever in this design so very low cost/maintenance.  And you can swap tubes to get exactly what you want and they offer a home trial period.  Just another option FWIW.

@jimmy2615 

Extremely helpful insight. I don't think that I am sensitive enough to pick out this subtle effect, but I'm glad you can.

I don't really know if my system is on the warm side or cooler. I have nothing to compare it to. No local audio nuts or stores nearby. I purchased a Cary 120s tube amp to get a warmer sound, but found that it did not appreciably alter the sonic presentation. My preamp is the ML No. 38s and speakers are Usher V-604. The Ushers provided a touch of warm. I want more. No more tubes for me.

I've had a the Levinson No. 38s in my system for so long, I can't remember how it affects the sound.

I'm not sure if you are familiar with the No. 38s sound. It is a pretty old unit. I've read a Stereophile review that it describes it as "neutral" which can mean "clinical" or "etched" or "detailed". Perhaps this preamp is pushing my system toward the cooler side.

So my questions are: will the BP-17 cubed be warmer or colder than the No. 38s in my system? What are my options for a warmer sounding preamp within the $6K price limit ($6K new list price). Any Bryston preamps?

I’ve owned both as well as the 2.5B, and while I often extol the virtues of the Benchmark, I would recommend the Bryston in this case.  The Benchmark is quieter and very transparent, but the Bryston is more musical especially with the 2.5B amplifier.  The  amp has a bottom up voicing and the preamp a top down voicing IME, and therefore they are very synergistic.  The preamp is very fast also, very immediate.  But ultimately you probably couldn’t go wrong with either.  The Benchmark holds their value well.  The BP17 can be had used for just over $2k.  My only problem with the Bryston was it was slightly noisy in my system (I.e., a hiss coming from the speakers, whereas the Benchmark is dead quiet).  

Very sensible. This was my approach when buying the Bryston 2.5b cubed.

The LA4 seems pretty good. Tough choice!

I've bought preamps twice.  Both times I did a bunch of research, obsessed over it for a while, and then decided I didn't believe 98% of what I read and just bought Brystons because I believed they were close to as good as you can get and last forever.  I bought a BP25 for $1000 in about 2008 and a BP26 about 5 years ago for about $2100.  Both work perfectly.  No noise in the knobs, connections all work perfectly.  When I replaced the BP25 with the BP26 I thought it eliminated a very slight honkiness but it was so subtle that I only noticed it that one time.

Given what you’re looking for sonically you’ve identified two excellent candidates IMHO.  I can’t speak to the Benchmark, but I owned a Bryston BP6 (very similar to the BP26 minus the balanced connections and separate power supply) for years and it is the quintessential “straight wire with gain” type component.  It simply passes on what it’s fed without editorializing, and it’s very quiet that leads to a large 3D soundstage due to what I perceived was a complete lack of background noise so individual images just pop to life.  I’d guess the BP17 sounds more alike than different from the BP6, but that’s just an uninformed guess that it maintains much of the Bryston house sound.  Just my experience FWIW, and best of luck.

@soix Well, I'd like the preamp to be neutral. Not sterile or shrill, but no tubbiness either. I need all the inputs and outputs the BP-17 has although I have a workaround for the LA4's inputs.

Don't need a DAC or streaming. I have a Bryston BDA-3. I don't stream.

Not looking for improvements, just replacement for an aging ML No38s. If colored at all, I prefer a slightly warm preamp.

The Benchmark HPA4 preamp is the LA4 preamp with a great headphone amp inside. It is a fantastic piece.

What improvements/sound characteristics are you looking for?

@kevemaher will PM you.

@nekoaudio  I'd like to hear more about the demo BP-17 you mentioned.

Please PM me if you would like.

I have seen new units for sale at a few online retailers.

What is the difference in the sound between the  the BP-17 cubed and the BP-19 cubed?

Both the Benchmark LA4 and Bryston BP-17^3 are designed to be reference-oriented devices. So things like frequency response, etc. will be very similar. The noise floor on the LA4 is lower. The BP-17^3 has more inputs and outputs, plus a headphone jack and the option for DAC or phono modules. They're both excellent options.

The BP-17^3 has been discontinued, so you will likely not find it available new. But it does mean you may be able to find a used or demo unit at a better price (I have a demo unit available). The BP-19 replaced the BP-17^3 and still fits in your budget. The BR-20 is a little above your budget.

Oh, new or used, but I would prefer new.

Budget is $6K USD. Both of the preamps above meet this criterion.

I'd like hear opinions on at least two things:

1. Between the two preamps I've mentioned above.

2. Between either of the two above and any other preamp that I should consider within the price range.

What’s your budget, and are you looking for new or used?