the whole point of this forum is to share ideas and opinions,we don't have to agree, my opinions on hi end audio are founded from first hand experience...listening to the equipment in my home. I have heard quite a bit of gear in my home, not just the stores. In the last year or so I have had the following in my home to listen to.
Amps.. Mac 252,Mac 402, Mac 501s Mac mc275
Vtl mb125,Vtl 185,Vtl st150 and st85
Goldmund 2.3...a gaggle of Naim. some Mark Levinson
ARC vs55,dynaco st 70 radii set
Pre amps..Vtl 7.5 vtl5.5 vtl 2.5
Linn wakonda,Mac c2200 mac c45
cd players Linn cd12,linn ikemi, linn ghenki,Mark levinson 390s,meridian, ayre,rega and consonance
a gaggle of "hi end " interconnects
What do I own...Khorns,Linn Ninkas and a pair of B&W CM2 bookshelfs...I have a Mac c220,Macmc275 and a Mac 252, a VTL 2.5 and a st85, a restored dynaco st70 a pair of Radii set mono amps, a mac cd player...a Linn Ikemi/wakonda/lk100.
It basically is 3 systems larg, medium and small...oh I use linn and naim speaker wire with basic interconnects.
I listen to all 3 and I like them all, I found the sound to be musical and engaging and fun...the Mac gear simply smokes on the little B&ws and does quite well on the khorns,...Vtl works super on the khorns and the 2.5 is one hell of a bargain in a pre amp...the little radii are nice and only 3 watts(they are not my favorite though) and the dynaco is a gem on the khorns....the ninkas work very well with the linn gear....All I can tell you is what I hear, to the gent that started this post, I feel for you, you simply haven't found what you are looking for....as always trust your ears. |
I think I'm taking this thread in an unrelated direction, so I'll write to Superhonestben directly.
Good luck, Gellis1, and please post what you decide on. |
The reason i say this is because i do listen to a wide range of music, from Aerosmith to mary black and lots in between. I play drums and have been in a few bands, have also done a full length,pro recorded cd in Boston,my point is we don't know what the "air is supposed to be" or the "imaging" etc...I fully agree with Linn's view about home hifi...the easier it is to follow the tune the more njoyable it is. I was there when we did our cd....medium size room,bass player was next to me...1st guitar player was 12 ft away behind a screen...2nd guitar player/vocalist was in a booth...12 feet away,
there was no "image" but when I play it at home there is an "image" pretty much sounds like most other cds...there is alot of mixing, overdubbing etc that goes on in recording. So when somebody says " this system images great" or "has great air" they are pulling at straws....because they were not there.....what I think they are really trying to say is....I like the sound.....and thats fine....but how many people who say " they like the sound" are tweaking and fiddling and in my opinion not really listening to the music....they are listening to the equipment. |
Music is not music, Ben. If that were the case, then we'd all be running the same components. I would piece together a system that would play Diana Krall just as well as it would Metallica, and then insist that all others match my standards for toe-tapping engagement.
You just asked the other day about SET amps, and I think you will find as you mate them with your K-horns, that they will shine with some musical genres (jazz & classical, for example), and less so on others, like hard rock. The more revealing the system, the more you get. But that air to which you refer is indeed part of the music, as in the space around the players, and the acoustics of the recording studio. Some people actually like to hear that, as it offers a dimensionality to the experience that otherwise is kept under wraps by the associated equipment. In other words, listen to a SET amp, and you might hear that it is dramatically different than your push/pull, in the same way that a 5-iron is not a 3-wood, and one club (or amp) does not necessarily cover the entire game with aplomb.
It's wonderful that you have found, as you call it, the 'point' of music. But your point is not likely to mimic that of all other people. That, in my perhaps not so humble opinion, is exactly the goal of this forum. To learn what else is out there, beyond the standards that appear as absolute truths in no place else but our own mind. |
I dont agree with that,music is music,rock, jazz,pop,classical etc...a good system should sound good on whatever type you play on it,sure some systems might shine a bit on quartets or full orchestral, but a real hi end system should sound good, very good or whats the point. Also if you are tweaking your system it means it doesnt sound good. If you keep searching for equipment that has more "air" your search will never end because that is NOT music. Again a system that is musical makes you want to listen to more music....not tweak and fiddle etc.....so if you dont get that from your equipment, it aint musical pure and simple....may have alot of "air" and "soundstage" though but who cares,if you are not tapping your foot and in the groove...like I said, whats the point ? |
I agree with Larryb. Most high end is not great for rock music. Resolving and revealing, airy and transparent, these are generally not the ultimate sonic goals of a rock-oriented system IMO. I went through this process, and ultimately decided that simpler is better.
When I had a Jolida 502B paired with Soliloquy 5.3 speakers and an Adire Rava sub, I found I was totally engaged when listening to rock/pop/country. With the switch to an Audio Aero Prima Hybrid, the bass got tighter and punchier, and the sound was equally as engaging. By the time we upgraded to a $2200 CD player, and a pair of $6500 speakers, the musicality of the system far surpassed that of the recordings, and we were beset on a quest similar to yours: to tweak the thing to death until we realized that the simplest (and less expensive) system worked best for us when it came to this genre of music.
On another note (so to speak), how do you like the Cremona's? I found them to be exactly as you described your system as a whole--sterile, and harsh in the highs. Are they more to your liking with the addition of the Pathos? I would think that you would find the music more to your liking with some tubes in the system--either in the form of a hybrid or tube amp.
For our rock-oriented system, we are reverting to something simple:
Audio Aero Prima Hybrid Amp
Simple CD player: Rega Planet or Naim CD5i
Soliloquy speakers (probably 6.3)
I did not care for the AU24 IC's, nor did my wife. Smoothed over highs, and frankly boring in our system. We much prefer the clarity and immediacy of the Z-Squared. Or the Verastarr.
Sorry if this sounds scattered. I'm just trying to say that when it comes to creating an engaging system for the type of music you like, I would suggest that less is more.
Happy New Year,
Howard |
Gellis, your system looks good to me. Please pay attention to room acoustics and try some sound proofing. When there are lots of reflective surfaces, you can apply diffusors. Be very judiciously with absorbers, because they tend to make the sound lifeless. I don't like rubber or sorbothane feet under the equipment, because of the same results. To me wood is the best material to use with audio equipment, not glass, not marble or granite, not metal or high-tech materials like carbon. The use of cones will lead to thinning of the sound and shrillness. Don't be obsessive with cables, because my credo is: A system is INHERENTLY good or bad sounding. This has nothing to do at all with cables, tweaks, whatsoever! A bad system will not sound good when applying $10,000 worth of cables! |
Hey Homer,What yah say,I can't here U...... |
Gellis1,
Take a look at Kimber's PBG and KCAG, neither sheilded. They do offer a sheilded version of the PBJ and it sounds worse. One example but do not worry about it. You will be fine using a digital source. Trust me on this. You will dig the cables.
Chris |
I read the AU24 interconnect wasn't as nice sounding as the speaker cable. I thought interconnects needed sheilding but not speaker. How do the interconnects work without sheilding? |
Maybe you've played too long and too loud without hearing protection. Get an aural test for the heck of it, it's not too expensive. |
Gellis1,
I think that is a great choice. I am sure you will probably prefer the Pathos over your current seperates and you eliminated a need for a pair of interconnects. I think you will also dig the Au24. It does not look like much but it is the best I have used. I went from using AudioQuest Anaconda and Volcano to it and have not looked back. Make sure you use their PowerChords on what you can like the Pathos, your CD Player, Etc.
Now see if you can't get a one box CD player and try it with your current set up. I would put money on the table it will sound better. Good luck!
Chris |
I would star over and start simple, forget expensive interconnects and wire, start with basic cable, you hear what you hear, I have owned aheard in my house lots of hi end gear, some sounds good, great and awful. I have tubes and ss. Try to fund a dealer who will loan you some stuff and if you like it go with that, as always trust your ear.
I own Mcintosh and love it. |
I skimmed thru most of this thread---What this guy needs is Lowther horns. They don't look any different than regular speakers. Just the cone protrudes the enclosure. Talk about speakers that sound good walking around--these sound great in the next room. In the midrange they have few equals.Cheap and cheap to drive. You will need a sub--(maybe) |
Chris,Thanks for all the wisdom,Funny thing dec30th I purchased an intergraded.Pathos, and spoke to John at the Cable co. about getting all Audience.I"m not sure how to spell it but WOW De ja vu |
After looking at your system I am surprised as many that it does not sound great. However, if you do not have a good synergy between components, even the most expensive of systems can sound like crap. If you are truly not happy, I would suggest you sell the system here on Audiogon and start from scratch.
Also, simplify things. Eliminate as much cabling as you can. For example, go with a high quality one box CD player like a GAMUT, an Electrocompaniet, or a CARY. Digital Cables can be the devil in my opinion. I was never happy when I had my Theta combo as I was always found good in bad in switching the digital cable. I got to the point where I three sitting around for different types of music. A one box source eliminates this link.
Also, maybe consider a larger pair of Speakers opposed to Monitors and a SUB. I personally love your speakers as I own the Concertos but my room is small. It sounds like the sound you are looking for might be better suited with a larger cabinet.
Also, stick to one cable product. Do not mix and match. If you like the Nirvana use their interconnects, speakerwire, and Power Cords as they are made to work together. I used to mix and match and have stellar results using all Audience Au24 and their matching Powerchords.
I hate to say this to but ditch the Vibrapods. They are are anything but an improvement IMO. They do more bad than good (At least they did in my system). I agree completely with your comments. I cannot stand using pointed hard brass or metal isolation devices either as I mainly listen to CDs and SACDs. Too much detail can take the emotion out of the music IMO.
I have recently purchased some Tone Wood Vibration Devices made from Brazilian Rosewood that would floor you on your system from a company called Monument Reference. You might want to check something like that out for your digital source. They add a sense of "space" with digital sources that is hard to describe.
Also, take out your echo busters and listen without them. Then add them in. Make sure they are an actual improvement. Not all things work well in real world applications. I do not think this is your problem but you want to eliminate every possible suspect.
Then take a look at your power set up. I know I will probably take a lot of crap for saying this but ditch any and all power conditioners. I have tried a lot of different combos and the best results I have had has been with using aftermarket power cords plugged straight into the WALL. There is a real nice guy named Albert Porter here on Audiogon that sells Cryo'd outlets for a reasonable price. Upgrading your wall outlets is a great cheap tweak.
Anyway, there is my two cents for free. I really wish you luck because I have been there.
My system now is not the most expensive but probably one of the most musical I have ever owned. It is also one of the most simple systems I have owned. I always grin when I go to my local high end shop and listen to a 30 or 40K system that is set up and I can usually find fault with it. It is all about synergy and the music.
GOOD LUCK!
Chris |
Most high end gear IMO isn't great for rock since it tends to emphasize the midrange, and other subtleties that are not mastered well into rock recordings.
If I had it to do over again, and maybe listened a little less to classical and jazz, I'd go with top end P/A speakers and professional amplifiers. Every commercial joint I've been in where I thought "Wow the sound is great in here." I noticed used commercial gear.
If you're into rock, pop, country, etc., I think that's the best bang for the buck, and will get you closer to what you're used to hearing when you gig. |
ANALOG, ANALOG, ANALOG !!! Where is your turntable ? A good analog rig will enhance any system. You have some excellent equiptment which deserves a good source component. If funds are a problem, get a VPI scout or Nottingham rig. Make sure that it is on a very sturdy level and HEAVY base. Since you are a musician, I'll bet you have some 2&4 track open reel tapes. Get a reel to reel on Ebay, some factory pre-recorded Reel to reels and be prepaired to be amazed. |
I would prefer a solidstate preamp with tube amp, rather than the other way around. That is, assuming ones speakers are "tube friendly." But that's just me.
The problem with highend audio is there are so many routes to take. Yep some are going to say you have good equipment and others are telling you to sell it all, including the room and house. How many of us have identical components? Hardly any. That should tell you something.
Sounds like you may need help with power, resonance control, and acoustics? well maybe not all three. But the happiness seems to lie in the details. I think he's psychic! Do you have a local mapleshade or walker audio dealer? they are usually pretty good with helping you with cost effective and sonic effective tweaks. Just a thought. No affiliation with mapleshade or lloyd walker. |
I can understand that. I've never owned tube equipment myself but have heard of people bi-amping speakers using solid state for the low end and tubes for the highs. |
I should change my subject to,Broke and confused.Some people out their tell me I have really nice gear and it should be ringing my bell, others tell me to sell it.Well anyway I"m not going to quit.I took out the vibrapods and things got more harsh,remember that was one of my problems I"m going to try my old sovteks and see if maybe I have a bad tube.How about suggestions on tube monos.Brand & watts. I play bass in my band, I don"t want to give up the speed & tightness you get with solid state,but I also like the warmth of tubes.I thought maybe with a tube pre & solid state amps you could achieve that,but maybe not.My bass head is a hibrid and works well. |
My $.02?
Get rid of the Vibrapods and Classe amps. Try a good tube amp or tube monos. Vibrapods squash PRaT, at least in my system. |
"I think the TACT is a pink noise generater."
Gellis1- the TacT is not a pink noise generator. It uses pulses at three different frequncies to measure in room frequency response and time delays between the speakers.
It uses this measurement to calculate an inverse correction curve for the system based on a target curve and subwoofer crossover points/slopes you select. All this is done in digital. You can program 9 difference correction curves to suit your musical tastes.
You can also manually adjust with it's digital 12-band parametric equalizer or a programable 3-band tone control to touch up problem recordings on the fly. |
Play some jazz, if you think this sounds better, consider the speakers. |
I think the TACT is a pink noise generater if so,we"ve tried other brands in the band and I had one in my vehicle. Always went back to manually adjusting the EQ.I"m still thinking about the Maranzt M-7. |
Get rid of the tube preamp and DAC. Use the the funds
to get a TacT RCS 2.2X. Run the transport directly into
the RCS. Put the sub in a corner of your room and let the TacT system measure and balance out the system. If you play in a band, you know that the sound person has to use EQ controls to adjust for room conditions. Time to bring
the same concept home. |
I have to reiterate here. Stereophile Test CD track 19. Put your ear right in front of the speaker and then slowly back away. It may not solve your particular problem, but it will give you an idea of good...or bad your speaker placement is.
Cables, power conditioners and other tweaks are important but I think people get a little obsessed with little stuff like that. I'm not an expert but I'd be willing to bet somewhere somehow it's an acoustics issue. |
Gellis1, you asked up a little ways about putting everything in a different room. If that's not too hard to do, give it a try. Will give you some insight into the role your current room is playing in your unhappiness. |
Well, when I ask for help I didn"t expect all this. Scott,you suggested the Richard Gray well I had one of them to,and I tried the Chang so I don"t know maybe I don"t like line conditioners maybe thats why I like the Furutech and then again maybe I should try some other line conditioner.That could be part of my problem.How about speakers,are mine to nice for the type of music I listen to? |
Gellis1,
I cannot speak to the power conditioners that you have because I have not personally tried them. However, based upon what I read I was not overly impressed with them. What I can atest to is what I have experienced in my own system. After researching power conditioners for myself, I concluded that the Richard Gray units were the ones I wanted to try. That being the case, I purchased a single "used" RGPC 400 MKII from Audiocon and put it in my system - just to try it out. It removed a large amount of the grundge and increased the dynamics of the sound significantly. It turned a system that was sterile to me into one that was extremely enjoyable to listen to. As a result of that experience, I rewired my system power for 240VAC, and added a 240VAC to 120VAC transformer and an RGPC 1200 Custom. The results have been wonderful!
This is the route I chose for my system, and If given a choice I would do it again because I think it is fundamentally sound. If I feel the need for more conditioning in the future I will probably add a PS-300 for the front end components.
Just my opinion - good luck :o)
Scott |
Psychic, you animal you !
You're so psychotically correct ! |
Gellis1,
If I remember correctly the Marigo bands are about $70 per driver pair. If the basket arms are of smallish circumference you can treat 2 driver pairs. These can add significant "involvement" for a relatively modest investment.
There are loads of DIY projects at Tweaker's Asylum that you can try that involve component isolation and other beneficial tweaks. I sense that your dissatisfaction could be cured with attention to some of the details I have mentioned. I have personally installed the Marigo bands on two pair of loudspeakers and greatly appreciated the results both times. I doubt very much that this treatment alone with get you where you want to be, but I am pretty confident it will make a difference that you will appreciate.
If you get over to the Tweaker's Asylum, check out bdiament posts regarding decoupling components and loudspeakers with roller bearings. I think he is right on the money with his assessments. An Audio Asylum member (transmissionfluid) is currently trying to organize a group purchase of Barry Diament's DIY Hip Roller bearings. These are 7075 grade aluminum discs milled to certain specs provided by Barry. If I were you I would take advantage of the offer. I don't know how close he is to getting this going, but I hope that it happens soon.
As Psychicanimal and others have mentioned, power treatment is another area that can help lead you to bliss. The only power treatment I am using personally is ACME silver plated/cryo treated outlets and this has lowered my systems noise floor significantly. I am currently researching how to more fully exploit power delivery options.
I also agree with Psychicanimal, sonic bliss involves a lot more than money alone can buy. That said money well spent on accessories can go a long way towards contentment too. With your budget you can afford to go slow. ;-) And even with a large budget, patience is the wise path to take.
If you are willing to make the investment someday, Machina Dynamica isolation platforms will most assuredly have a huge impact on improving the enjoyment of your current system.
I have never heard your digital equipment. If you make a specific request with North Star DAC/Transport in the title you presumably will find people who have. It is a good idea to poll these people as to what isolation, power, and cabling solutions have worked for them. |
Marigo VTS tuning bands on your dynamic driver basket arms. That is one of the suggestions.Do you think I should try it? Or maybe put everything in a different room. Someone suggested cardas cables,Done that,Been their.Not rejecting.Don"t forget my first subject.BROKE.I was thinking it was my source and ask if anybody had heard the North Star Design DAC& TRANSPORT but nobody replied on that.I did remove the vibrapods but no change. |
Gellis1, what do YOU think the problem is? Many suggestions have been made and you have rejected several of them. It seems as though you are looking for a specific answer to validate your own opinion. |
Hey, I don't sell anything--and you're the one who's not happy. I'll put it in other words: The professional is able to compensate the idiosyncracies of his equipment. Thet's why I say what I say. Audio is not about buying expensive equipment. Audio is about knowing how to set up anything, anywhere and making it sound right. This skill takes time and effort to learn. With psychic power and primal intensity, |
LOL, so far you have been told to experiment with or replace everything in your system including the room! So much for help. Not that I have your answer either.
As long as we are all giving out .02 cents, let me add another .02, making it .04 cents!
I do believe a room plays a big part, but I believe many, if not most, on here would say that they have setup many systems in many rooms and had them sound good, doing little or nothing to the room. Could changing room setup and treatment improved this, absolutely.
Also, I bet the majority of the users here do not have power conditioning. |
What's up with "High end is who you are"?
Yeah I read "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" once.
BTW not all Cardas power cords are good; I bought one that was terrible with my power amp -- the hexlink I think. The Cardas Golden power cord was COMPLETELY different and should not ruin the bass as in your experience. |
High end is who you are, not what you buy,But you keep trying to sell me something! |
All you have is a glorified power strip. You need to read, study and decide which approach to take for your system. First is whether your system will run off a 220V dedicated line w/ step down isolation transformer(s) or 110V dedicated line(s). Next is if balanced power will be used. That's enough for now...
High end is who you are, not what you buy.
*** |
I had a Chang Lightspeed didn"t like it. I now have a Furutech E-TP80. |
I did not see any mention of power conditioning. Until you clean that up you cannot accurately assess the other elements of the system. The harshness you mention could very well be from dirty power - I doubt that it is coming from the excellent equipment you have. Clean it up, and then you can address system synergy, acoustics, etc. - if you even feel the need to at that point. |
You may need to play with the crossover settings on your sub. I had set my crossover phase with a signal generator to give the strongest sound at crossover. I was very unhappy with the sound, although I didn't really tie it in to the lows. On a whim, I switched the sub polarity, and I was able to turn the sub up without boom, and everything sounded much more natural and alive. Best part is this one is FREE and EASY to do, and reversible! |
Forget about both for now. Get EVERYTHING out. The point is that you have not addressed the power delivery/noise control department. Audio is mainly about power, vibration control & acoustics. You need to work one at a time. Power is relatively straightforward (I'm lying) and acoustics can be dealt mas o menos. Go to http://www.decware.com and the Rives forum in the Asylum. Catch up on the acoustics subject. High end is who you are, not what you buy. *** |
Maybe I"m wrong but I thought vibrapods soften the sound and cones gave you more detail and highs.Not what I"m looking for. |
Nrchy, you missed the point, too! |
I'm not sure what psychicanimal was getting at since I'm not psychic, but a good system will not deliver good sound if it is fighting against the room. Your room is a more important componant than any other piece. I would suggest going to http://www.rivesaudio.com and plugging your system into their software. You may be able to get a good starting point for what to do. I say that because there is nothing wrong with your electronics and speakers although I did notice there was no mention of the turntable you use as your primary listening source : ) BTW ditch the vibrapods, and go with cones. |
Maybe knowing how real music sounds takes something away from the recorded experience? I think this could happen if you arrived at a point of comparing them. Sound quality verses performance verses what you know and what you hear,etc. Something like this could be dismal. I honestly believe my system must suck big time compared to many I see here, and yet having listened to recorded music most of my life I have little experience to justify my sense that what I am hearing is not quite right, not real. It is a relief really. I imagine people who listen to live music or who play instruments can not bridge the gap between what sounds real and recordings they hear. Music comming out of the isolation of a studio might well seem sterile, even when it comes closest to fidelity. Maybe recordings with their limitations are the weakest link in your system. |
Everybody's missed the point. I must be John the Baptist...preaching in the desert. |
I had AU24s on the speakers and Golden Cross interconnects,wasn"t bad ,but I think I like the Nirvana stuff better.Tried Cardas PCs, made the bass bloaty and slow so I settle for ESP Essence on amps,Nirvana analog on Pre and Top Gun Specials on the tranport & dac.I have Brimars in the Pre there suppose to be very musical.So I don"t know maybe its my source.Has anybody heard the North Star Design stuff? |
Use a competent dealer. He will lead you to what works and what doesn't together. I'm lucky enough to have one but they are rare. Find someone that just sells the brands that he believes to be the best. Avoid dealers that are stuck selling specific brands.
Rob |
