@phd Question is how many users that you were referencing leave their gear on all the time, or listen as often as it takes to actually break the gear in. The ARC preamp I mentioned, would have required a number of months or more...perhaps more than a year, to actually break in IF the user was not listening every week ( and for extended periods). That, plus one wouldn't really want to leave a tube preamp ( or any tube gear for that matter) on for weeks at an end. ARC stated that their large Teflon caps needed 600+ hours to break in!
Break in time that extends to months or maybe even years!!
On another thread, we have a well known and well respected piece of gear ( and great sounding too, IME) that according to the member who is reviewing it, needs in excess of 1000 hours to fully break in!!
While we have all heard of gear that needs immense amounts of 'break in' time to sound its best, usually gear that involves teflon caps, I question whether this very long break in time is the job for the consumer? Is it reasonable for a manufacturer of audio gear to expect the consumer to receive sub-par performance from his purchase for potentially several months ( years?) before the true sound of the gear in question can be enjoyed? Or, is it ( or should it be) perhaps the job of the manufacturer of this gear ( usually not low priced) to actually accomplish the 'break in' before releasing it from the factory? Thoughts...
While we have all heard of gear that needs immense amounts of 'break in' time to sound its best, usually gear that involves teflon caps, I question whether this very long break in time is the job for the consumer? Is it reasonable for a manufacturer of audio gear to expect the consumer to receive sub-par performance from his purchase for potentially several months ( years?) before the true sound of the gear in question can be enjoyed? Or, is it ( or should it be) perhaps the job of the manufacturer of this gear ( usually not low priced) to actually accomplish the 'break in' before releasing it from the factory? Thoughts...
114 responses Add your response
daveyf The ARC preamp I mentioned, would have required a number of months or more...perhaps more than a year, to actually break in IF the user was not listening every week ( and for extended periods) ... ARC stated that their large Teflon caps needed 600+ hours to break in!That's not at all what ARC states. Check your user manual. If you don't actually own any ARC gear, you can "look it up," if you care. Many ARC user manuals are online. |
@cleeds ARC didn't state anything about the long break in time in the manual of the piece I am referring to ( I did not say they did, you somehow read that?) , but in a response to a review, this was recommended. I doubt any company mentions much about 'break in' time in their manual..particularly IF it is going to be lengthy. |
daveyf ARC didn't state anything about the long break in time in the manual of the piece I am referring to ( I did not say they did, you somehow read that?) , but in a response to a review ...What review was that? I doubt any company mentions much about 'break in' time in their manual ...ARC does. That's why I mentioned it. |
Caps can be broken in on simple fixture consisting of a variable voltage supply modulated with an audio signal. There are plans out there to build them cheaply. You can gang lots of caps onto the same fixture and run it indefinitely. Any manufacture that says that a product needs to be broken in for weeks or months is just hoping that you grow to like it well before the return window is closed. Transducers such as cartridges do need a short break-in time as the suspension needs to loosen up a bit. Cables? Somebody has been smokin to much weed. BillWojo |
@billwojo Any manufacture that says that a product needs to be broken in for weeks or months is just hoping that you grow to like it well before the return window is closed.Shhhh....a successful marketing campaign ensures that the advertised "break-in" window exceeds the time required for confirmation bias to fully develop. Cables? Somebody has been smokin to much weed.Another manufacturing secret.... "Roll another one |
Several years ago I recall reading the the Large Hadron Collider at CERN would only operate at 50% power for 1 year following startup to allow the magnets and other heavy electrical components settle in. I recall that the physicist mentioned that the crystal structures in some component needed time to align or de-stress. Maybe 1000 hours to break in some audio gear is not unheard of. |
Several years ago I recall reading the the Large Hadron Collider at CERN would only operate at 50% power for 1 year following startup to allow the magnets and other heavy electrical components settle in. I recall that the physicist mentioned that the crystal structures in some component needed time to align or de-stress. Maybe 1000 hours to break in some audio gear is not unheard of.I am sure this news has been already debunked by some audio "scientist" here....Or James Randi... What a waste of time because CERN dont consult the right "scientist" probably.... Me I know perfectly well that out of the box any electronic component is more than ready to use, no "tweaks" needed, no time to waste, we have proven it with measures.... :) |
| Post removed |
My post was a joke.... :) But sure some debunk even joke if it is about "break in"....It is a serious subject matter... It is very important after all to debunk audiophile "crazy" impressions.... If you perceive rainbow dont say it is real, it is a subjective impression clothed in an objective one clearly... :) An A.I. will not perceive it....Reality dont need impressions....;) Wait ! I realize now that what I had just written is wrong... An A.I. connected to a human brain will.... And will be more intelligent... Able to debunk his own impressions and knowing why.... And no blind test needed... :) I apologize for my joke or sarcasm.... We are not always wise.... I will go back to the shed where Newton observe light wrongly with his corpuscular theory, and i will read Goethe to complete it rightly...But wait is Goethe not a poet? Poet are more stupid than some "audiophile".... Wasn't Goethe stupid ? He wrote that there is no theory behind phenomena and that phenomena are the theory... It is sure now, Goethe was an "audiophile".... Wait a minute... Is it not quantum theory that suppose that a photon cannot be called a "phenomena" before being in the theater of consciousness, but only a probability wave? I throw my hat to the wind... I dont understand anything anymore... Where is Feynman when we need it ? |
No debunking, just accurate reporting.I just realize that you are not debunking anything... I misread your post... But by "accurate reporting" are you suggesting that the preparation of the hadron collider has nothing to do with the preparation of an amplifier by an "audiophile" ? We often interpret things how we want them to be. That does not make it true.This is very wise remark.... This hadron collider does not need to "break in" for sure...a collider is another beast than an amplifier... Or a cable... Simple then, for the time to come, why do we not call "break in" the necessary preparation for a love affair between some chemical catalytic component and some neuron? This "illusion" or "audiophile" pleasurable sensation is like a rainbow after all.... And after all, "real truth" or "the" truth like you said,(Or isn’t me saying that?) dont need any interpretation and has nothing to do with this love affair, and the birthing of truth is like Athena birth, coming nude from the head of Zeus... Is’n it? P.S. I just remember that Feynman said that if someone pretend to understand quantum mechanic he is lying...I think Feynman dont understand truth either.... Or do he? I will let you decide all that... :) I will just give you a hint about my own opinion with only one word: "consciousness"... Make of this word what you like it to be, a reality or an illusion, but beware of the consequences... |
Regarding the LHC, this is from Wikipedia. Initial lower magnet currentsEdit In both of its runs (2010 to 2012 and 2015), the LHC was initially run at energies below its planned operating energy, and ramped up to just 2 x 4 TeV energy on its first run and 2 x 6.5 TeV on its second run, below the design energy of 2 x 7 TeV. This is because massive superconducting magnets require considerable magnet training to handle the high currents involved without losing their superconducting ability, and the high currents are necessary to allow a high proton energy. The "training" process involves repeatedly running the magnets with lower currents to provoke any quenches or minute movements that may result. It also takes time to cool down magnets to their operating temperature of around 1.9 K (close to absolute zero). Over time the magnet "beds in" and ceases to quench at these lesser currents and can handle the full design current without quenching; CERN media describe the magnets as "shaking out" the unavoidable tiny manufacturing imperfections in their crystals and positions that had initially impaired their ability to handle their planned currents. The magnets, over time and with training, gradually become able to handle their full planned currents without quenching.[80][81] The LHC is down for a major upgrade, when it comes back up it will be called the High Luminosity LHC. Sounds kinda like a god... So yes, the LHC required a break in period, and yes, like us audiofools, the physicist at CERN have an insatiable urge to upgrade. |
Thanks, my only point being that break-in is a real thing, but I certainly don’t know how long it takes. Speakers, amps, caps will likely take different lengths of time. Now, can I interest anyone in a newly designed amp using superconducting magnets? Break in will be 20 to 30 years at the specified power output. |
| Post removed |
Yep. Break in of an audio component such as a capacitor or speaker surround, or more importantly an audio system, such as a preamp or speaker, could easily form the basis of a masters thesis or PhD dissertation. This would not begin to cover the multitude of material combinations that can be applied to any one loudspeaker or preamp system, so we’re left with debating assertions, which is entertaining and educational. |
| Post removed |
heaudio123 Ultimately the only thing that matters is is the effect audible. Would be a relatively easy test, a new unit(s) and burned in unit(s) and do A/B/X analysis. Unfortunately that is anathema to many audiophiles. >>>>It almost sounds like you’re volunteering to do the required A/B/X analysis. I look forward to your analysis. That is unless it’s anathema to you. The confirmation of the audible effect of break-in is a sticky wicket, I’m afraid, if one attempts to compare the sound of a component before break-in to the sound after break-in. What prevents the earnest audiophile from trying to get to the bottom of break-in is not only the 🔜 uneven audible effects of break in 🔚 with but also the difficulty in making comparisons of the sound over long periods of time, e.g., two weeks. If one wishes to compare the sound of his system two weeks apart not only is his memory of the sound in the first case crucial to the test but also, perhaps more importantly, how can he attribute any differences in sound to only break-in since a slew of external and internal variables probably changed. Rarely does the intrepid audiophile sit still for 2 weeks. Surely he would make some changes to his system in that time, no? And shouldn’t time of day, day of week, the weather be considered in comparisons of sound? Nothing is easy, if it was easy everyone could do it. It is virtually impossible to control all the variables in tests like this, a test which on the surface seems like a slam dunk. |
| Post removed |
Start the a/b test with a component for which it should be easy to discern the difference between new out of the box and then after 1000 hours of normal playing. A pair of full range speakers should do the trick, handily. Well, actually two pair would be needed, one new the other run in for thousands of hours. That would be a really fun test to take part in. I’ll supply the post test beer, win and snacky things. |
fundsgon Start the a/b test with a component for which it should be easy to discern the difference between new out of the box and then after 1000 hours of normal playing. A pair of full range speakers should do the trick, handily. Well, actually two pair would be needed, one new the other run in for thousands of hours. That would be a really fun test to take part in. I’ll supply the post test beer, win and snacky things. >>>>>Sounds good to me. See ya in about a year, then? 🤗 |
| Post removed |
These are the kinds of things people think up when they have yet to develop any real listening skills. Its like in the beginning its real common to use one special recording and play it over and over again. To sit in the same spot, obsess over matched volume levels, on and on piling one ritual on another, one check and balance and qualification (reliably? double-blind? are you sure? really really sure? really really REALLY sure???) on top of another, with no end in sight. This is all goes away once you learn what’s what. Then all of a sudden it hits you how mind-numbingly soul sappingly boring it is to play the same little bit over and over again. Or even the same track. Or even to pause the track. All these crazy ideas of having to do it fast and everything be just a certain way it all goes POOF! When you learn to listen. Best example I know, one time at CES they had this crap PA system and it had some problem and it was outdoors and packed and from where I was way in the back it sounded like just your typical crap PA system. But to the guys up closer and towards the middle, they were complaining. And so people are running around back and forth trying to figure out what it is. And then someone in the middle yells out check the something or other. I couldn’t hear. Like I said, way in the back. But even from way back there it was clear something happened. Now instead of running around one guy is looking at one specific thing and then a few minutes later its fixed and the show goes on. Word travels fast. Within minutes the word reaches even to me way in the back. The guy was Stan Ricker. He said there’s a bad resistor in the crossover. Or cap. Something like that. Been a long time. Anyway, point is, this guy listening for the first time to an absolute piece of crap system, outdoors, and with mega-distractions, was able to diagnose an electrical fault right down to the discrete part involved BY EAR! And he didn’t need no double-blind A/B or any of that. Listening skills. Get some. |
heaudio123 I believe that is the suppliers making the 1000 hour break-in claims ...That's an interesting belief. Is that like a faith-based belief, or do you have something that actually leads you to that belief? |
| Post removed |
| Post removed |
heaudio123 stepping in it big time: Does anyone have the current price per acre on swamp land in Florida in this current pandemic? Why? Are you a real estate agent? Because you sure don’t seem to be an audiophile. CES stands for Consumer Electronics Show. Stan Ricker is an audiophile legend. The place was packed. With industry insiders. The guy I roomed with, he had more parts and equipment than you could stuff in a large fishing tackle box. That’s just one guy. One random guy. This was an audience full of just that same sort of "random guy". Hell yes they had the part, and the solder, and replaced it. Chris Brady was there, standing right next to me. https://teresaudio.com You can apologize any time now. |
@ebm I agree. McCormack dna-750s’ pair have been upgraded to Teflon caps. Probably,not broken in yet. They do have a much different sound from turn on- and the first hour, to leaving powered up for 24+ hours. I’m sure my last post delved into this, it is true, there’s a colder sound, and the mids and bass just don’t sound right. After 24+ hours of just being in the “on” position, with the preamp, and CD player. The first couple hours are colder, less goosebumps for sure. Turned on Friday evening after work about 5-6 pm, left on til Saturday evening, the sound is so much different, it is a night and day difference. I’m a huge believer, and it is true, when. The components are warmed up, they are relaxed and just have a nice tone to them. especially when I play the CDs of the LP’s I recorded to them, they do have a nice warm sound,no fatigue at all. The few pops and ticks are very welcome, as I love the album sound. Even the Yamaha receiver and SL-1200mkII I use to play into my computer to record the LP’ I LEAVE. ON FOR at least an hour to warm up. I do notice a difference. As far as a year,. Mine are never left on continuously, off for storms, vacation, and when not listening. Good reading in here. |
Albert Einstein could predict the orbital precession of a star around a black hole, but not even he could predict the break-in period of a pair of bookshelf speakers. But seriously, I recently purchased a pair of speakers. I demoed them at the dealer with my amp and CD player. The dealer would not sell me the demo pair because, according to him, they took forever to break in. The new speakers sound fabulous right out of the box, but aren’t quite as dynamic as the demo pair. We shall see if they become so, but for now the music brings tears to my significant other. Well, maybe me too, on occasion, after a few drinks. |
| Post removed |
| Post removed |
| Post removed |
fundsgon Albert Einstein could predict the orbital precession of a star around a black hole, but not even he could predict the break-in period of a pair of bookshelf speakers. >>>>His prediction was all the more remarkable as Einstein didn’t believe in black holes until his death. He became a strong believer of black holes after his death. |
mahgister Albert Einstein once wrote on a blackboard: “Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts.” >>>>>Nope, sorry. Einstein would never say something so trite. It doesn’t mean anything. |
Geoffkait, true enuf. He did however, predict orbital precession. His calculations perfectly predicted mercury’s orbit, which is subject to a higher degree of precession than the outer planets. Orbital dynamics using classical physics are not able to accurately predict the orbit of Mercury, Einstein’s Gravitational physics is needed for that. recently, a star orbiting the milky ways central black hole was shown to be behaving as Einstein’s calculation predict. Astounding. Anyone know what music Herr Einstein listened to? Okay, now we’re light years off topic. My fault. |
