Meadowlark Audio, long defunct, is one brand that used first order xovers and time/phase aligned drivers. I have owned three different models and still enjoy my old trusty Kestrels.
Audio Physic offers time/phased aligned drivers now. As for first order crossovers, I believe I read that once but can't swear to it. I will say the Tempo offers about as holographic a sound as you'll hear. |
Vandersteen is hard to beat. Once you get used to them, its very hard to move to something else. Not too many companies make time and phase correct speakers. The design process is very difficult and time consuming. If the Vandersteen's are too revealing for you, the Meadowlark's that Timrhu recommends are very good, if you can find a good used pair.
One of the nice things about Vandersteen, is that they don't have too much of the box colorations you find with most other box speakers, as well as the colorations you get with esl's and ribbons. This type of transparency allows you to change the sound of your system very easily. When you upgrade other components in your system like amps, preamps, and sources, you hear more of the components, and how they change your system.
Also, you should be able to upgrade your 2's to Signature 1 status. |
Take a looked at the "Sloped Baffle" thread. Lot's of discussion about time coherent speakers. Two other brands that come to mind are Thiel and Green Mountain Audio. Of course, there's always DEQX which can effect time alignment corrections and room EQ adjustments.
Sure wish there were more brick and mortar stores where hobbyists could burn some time auditioning various speakers without sales pressure. Those days are long since past if they ever existed at all. |
Hey Robertsong,
I happen to have Roy Johnson's ultimate creation, the Green Mountain Audio Continuum 3 with the latest HX upgrades on it. It already had the HD upgrades when I bought the speakers from the original owner. It has the rosewood side panels and took Roy 4 months to do all the upgrades including sending the speakers to Audio Magic for their zapping of the wires. This is one of only 3 pairs of C3's ever made that now have his latest HX upgrades included. This speaker was the finest Roy ever made and is in very good condition 8/9. Fully adjustable midrange and tweeter modules so you can get the perfect time alignment no matter how tall or short you are along with stunning clarity from the first order crossovers and the individual housing for each driver. These are one of several pairs of highly rated speakers I bought near the same time and my wife would like to have someone remove the extra clutter--it is enjoyable to hear different well executed designs at different times, however. You can go to the GMA website under archived speakers to read about the C3's. The 6moons review was over the top in it's praise and this was before the HD and HX upgrades were even thought of--much better now says Roy. I can't vouch for the changes as I bought them from the original owner without hearing first and Roy put the upgrades latest HX upgrades in fresh after I bought the C3's in Colorado. I live in Illinois. These speakers are broken in and ready to be heard. The HX upgrades were over $2000 and the C3/HD's were last retailed at $17,995 prior to the HX upgrade. I would take considerably less than 1/3 if you wanted to try them out. I have the boxes for shipping. I was a VMPS demonstrator until Brian Cheney passed on and although every set of speakers I have are excellent sounding, I guess I just love the VMPS sound as it hits my idea of music better than the other speakers I have--if I had to make one choice. Others would no doubt feel differently and would tell me I'm nuts to let these go. Who can explain the way they hear things to someone who hears it differently and with dissimilar tastes in how music sounds?
Bob
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I just went to Vandy Treos from Proacs. Still love the Proacs but no other speaker I heard can match everything that Vandys do in their respective ranges. He keeps making a better and better sounding speaker. I've heard so many brands over the last couple of years and for MY ear, lol, the Vandys were the only one that made me feel the need to upgrade. So glad I did. |
Eminent Technology's LFT-8b crosses over from it's 8" cone woofer to it's Magnetic-Planar midrange panel at 180 Hz, via a symmetrical first-order crossover. That panel hands off to the speaker's Magnetic-Planar tweeter strip at 10K, also first order. |
Gallo Reference speakers all incorporate 1st order and crossoverless designs as well a time and phase coherency. They are among the least expensive and better sounding speakers that do so...
-RW- |
How true Rlwainright !
If I had any brains I would have just stopped with a pair of Gallo Micros's with one of their fine cylindrical subs. |
I've always found that once you introduce a sub that isn't integrated into the speaker itself, it has continuity problems. I just have a blending problem with subs and that includes very expensive subs, but again that's just me. I got the Treo's since they went low enough for my room and integrate so well. Tons of great choices out there though. |
i owned the kestral 2's and they were superb. recently tho i have gone to full range drivers and tiny tube amps. the sound is what the kestrals were trying to achieve as no crossover and single sound source solves those problems |
Robert-
I want to say that the Vandy Treo & Quattro models are 1st order cross-over, as well as, Aerial 6/7t models.
The above mentioned speakers are quite different from the Thiel line (my reference). In particular, I endorse the CS 2.4 & CS 2.7 models. The CS 3.7 are too big for my listening space. Thiel is very full-bodied from the top to the bottom, leaving no range(s) out. Remarkable timbre w/ Thiel loudspeakers- if this is your "thing" then search no further.
Happy Listening! |
As Bifwynne indicated we had a very good discussion on 1st-order x-over speakers in the "Sloped Baffle" thread sometime back in July 2014. A cut & paste from that thread (which was in response to Bifwynne asking me which were the 1st order x-over speaker brands in the market in a very similar vein as you have in this thread): 07-05-14: Bombaywalla
Bifwynne, yes, I think you have the list.
Single-driver speakers are also time coherent (since they dont have a x-over to begin with) but they might not have the freq range extension you are looking for.
Some of the latest generation Martin-Logans might also be time-coherent (they claim to have made big strides in integrating their woofer with their ESL panel) & the full-range CLX.
Quad speakers are also time-coherent such as the ESL-2085 & they might other models (ESL-989?)
Another brand is Eminent Technology LFT 8. They might have a latter rev of this model, not sure.
Yet another brand would be Sanders Sound Systems 10C & 11 ESLs. You'll find measurements of the Innersound Kaya & Eros Mk3 speakers on Stereophile if you search. Innersound speakers were basically made by the same person who owns Sanders Sound Systems today. I realize that I'm extrapolating since Innersound Kayas were time-coherent that Sanders Sound Systems 10C/11 will also be. This is based on a reasonable assumption that the same designer has not changed his philosophy when he started his new company. Atleast I did not get this impression when I spoke to him in Dec 2013/Jan 2014.
I'm almost willing to say that SoundLab ESLs are also time-coherent but I might be wrong here. Not sure.
That's all I can think of right now. If I think of more brands/models I shall post. Thanks.
Bombaywalla and in that same thread Unsound listed the following: 07-20-14: Unsound
I just remembered the name of the old poster that started a time coherent speaker company; Karl Shuemann. To be fair to all here's a list of those companies that have made time coherent speakers that I'm aware; of starting with Karl's (which fortuitously falls into alphabetical order):
Audiomachina
Dunlavy
Greenmountain
Meadowlark
Quad
Thiel
Vandersteen thanks. |
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I wonder if some of the panel speakers listed above would actually qualify due to the radiation pattern/time variances from the different points of their drivers?
The Quads and the Sound Labs might, due to their unique design principles. I'm not sure they meet the OP criterion of "w/first order x-over,...". If we were to include those designs without that distinction, some of those that use Walsh type drivers such as the original Ohms, German Physiks, Huffs, and HHR Exotic Speakers might qualify. |
Talked with Roy Johnson of Green Mountain Audio recently & he is very excited about his new crossover in his latest models.
I have had a GMA Continuum IIa for 12 years and couldn't be more pleased. |
Hi Unsound, the panel speakers I cited above (esp. with model numbers) I actually verified (at that time of posting) were 1st order x-overs. Others I cited more generically since I was not sure &/or could not verify were 1st order x-over. thanks. |
Robertsong,
I just re-read your topic heading which says "Brands w/ first order x-over, time & phase aligned".
Your next speaker that you really want should be "TIME-COHERENT". Time-coherency is what it's all about & it is time-coherency that is so very difficult to achieve unless you really know what you/speaker designer are doing.
A speaker that is time-coherent will be time-aligned, phase-coherent (I don't understand what phase aligned means) at its x-over freq & at all other frequencies as well. So, time-coherency is the super-set.
Many speaker are phase-coherent but only at their x-over frequencies. At other frequencies they are anything but phase-coherent.
Many other speakers are time-aligned - this can be achieved by a sloped baffle or inverting the driver line-up on a vertical baffle i.e. woofer top-most & tweeter bottom-most. By being time-aligned a speaker is not necessarily time-coherent. In fact 99% of the speakers in the market are not.
I would highly urge you to read the "sloped baffle" thread. There is plenty of excellent info on time-coherency by various members & in particular by Roy Johnson of Green Mtn Audio. In that thread I gave the link to one of the very best threads of all time on Audiogon that talked about time-coherency in speakers. We discussed this way back in 2002! ;-)
hope this helps..... |
Bombaywalla, I was actually referring to the Quads and Sound labs that I mentioned in my last post. Sorry, if I wasn't clearer. :-) |
In response to the poster who said thinks the Vandy Treo's and Quads are...they are....I love my Treo's....Vandy's only speaker that isn't is the model 1 |
In response to the poster who said thinks the Vandy Treo's and Quads are...they are....I love my Treo's....Vandy's only speaker that isn't is the model 1
Ctsooner Not sure why you say this. From Vandersteen's web site,"The Model 1Ci is a time- and phase-correct speaker constructed in such a way that the alignment and positioning of the drivers allow a point-source wave front and maximize the phase coherence of the loudspeaker at the listening position. Dimensional Purity in a shockingly affordable full-range speaker." |
Ok, I'm sure you're correct...Maybe I was thinking about it not being first order crossover...I bet that's what I was thinking. Either way, it doesn't matter since the 1c sounds so awesome for it's price range...Another best buy for Richard..Thanks for the correction. |
