I've heard the golden lion KT88 reissues are very good. I'm thinking of getting them. |
I recently got a pair of the Cherry 180s albeit in black. Been enjoying them for a few months now just with stock tubes. After reading this thread I will certainly upgrade the 12AX7 and 12AT7 input tubes to something better.
I was wondering if anyone has also upgraded the KT88 output tubes as well? Or would the benefits be only marginal?
Thanks in advance. |
Here's the link :)
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/superioraudio/equipment/0512/bob_carver_cherry_180_tube_monoblock_amplifier.htm |
Yeah, that's were I read about them but I forget which review. |
Yes, they're. I wonder about that post too. But it seems working fine. Exact same tube that one of the reviewers mentioned |
Thuan, are those the Voskhod 12AX7VKA?
Wondering if they are the same 12AX7 that Dracule checked the specs and posted above, they accept only 6.3 volts?
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I have Cryoed Voskhod 12AX7 and NOS RCA 12AT7. Very pleased with its sound. But I don't have Tele 12AX7 to compare. I'm hunting for a pair of Sylvania Gold brand 5751WA to try it out, still looking |
Anyone rolled the 12AX7 and 12A7? The best I've tried so far is the Psvanes. They sound better to me than the NOS Telefunken smooth plate 12AX7 and RCA 12AT7 combination. |
I might add that I'm a bit disappoint to see KT88 tube bases of these Cherry 180 are not ceramic. The KT88s are seated loose in these plastic tube bases. At $8k, ceramic bases should be used. Also speaker binding post are lower grade IMO- solid copper, Cardas type, would be better. My Cary 805C mono have better build, fit'n finish. |
Have anyone try KT120s with Cherry 180?
I read that KT120 has sweeter sounding like EL34 on steroid.
KT120 has same spec as KT88 ? aka Super KT88
As long as we bias these just like KT88, we're not stress the 180' transformer ?
I would live to try these on Cherry 180 - I currently roll mine with Gold Lion reissued KT88. Definitely step up sounding from stock Shuguangbtubes
TIA
Thuan |
Looking at the stereophile measurements of the 3.6 the impedance dips to 4 ohms at approximately 50Hz then continues down to 3 ohms for the remainder of the test and occasionally bottoming at 2.3 ohms.
While this might be a problem for many tube designs the Carver VTA's have a 2 ohm tap if needed. My Eidolons are a load that dips below 4 ohms and the 8 ohm tap sounds great.
I'd suggest calling Underwood HiFi, they may have experience with the 3.6. |
According to Bob Carver, there should not be a significant difference in sound between the two amps except for the extra headroom of the BBs. I have heard that the KT120s on the BBs may sound a little sweeter up top than the stock KT88s in the Cherry 180. But you got so much choice in KT88s, you could probably get the sound you're looking for by tube rolling. You can't with the KT120, which is only made by one manufacturer. Based on what I've heard from the latest Bryston amps in different systems (but not in my own), I can almost guarantee you that Bob's amps will have better sound staging/imaging, more harmonically correct and less fatiguing sound than the Bryston. Bryston will probably have tighter bass. That's my edumacated guess based on my experience. I think Thiels relatively lean sound will benefit from a good tube amp. |
Has anyone tried the cherry 180 amps with Thiel 3.6 speakers? Any opinions if the Thiels would be better driven with the Black Beauty amps? I am currently driving the Thiels with an older Bryston 4b (200w/ch into 8ohms) which has been a good combination. |
Hi Vic, thanks for the description of sound of the NuForce.
I would contact Bob Carver, LLC and make sure those tubes won't cause a problem if you decide to directly plug them into your amp without rewiring. |
Drac, well the difference is a lot like solid state and tube, so a comparison is not what I would call useful. When class D became recently popular there were some who wrote of hearing a tube like quality in the sound of their switching amp. I've had nine different switching amps in my system and none of them came close to sounding tube like.
My NuForce mono's began as the original Reference 9 SE and were upgraded to version 3. Generally speaking switching amplifiers are becoming more refined with the forward glassiness getting worked out. Channel Island, Nuforce, the big Rowlands, and the Hypex nCores to name a few.
I use switching amplifiers to power a pair of Avalon Acoustics Monitors in my studio. Their presentation that many find objectionable is exactly what I want from an amplifier in my studio environment.
I have used them in my main system but I prefer the relaxed presentation that only tubes provide for extended listening.
Switching amplifiers are simply a new amplifier option that many have found to meet their needs. The credibility and contempt by some in this hobby towards switching amplifiers is becoming more shortsighted. Design and technical improvements improve their sonic characteristics while maintaining their extraordinary efficiency and economical cost IMO.
I didn't know about the voltage differences in those tubes. Could that cause a problem? They were so inexpensive maybe I'll just forget about them. |
Hi Ait, I did not say vintage transformers are better. For the eBay Cherry 180s, Bob used pie wound vintage transformers that he bought when he was in college, I believe. Pie winding was important in the old days when the "iron" wasn't as good as present day core material. In the pre-transistor era, transformer designers had to rely more on their winding technique than the core material to get good frequency response. But pie winding is more time consuming and difficult to do. This is what Bob told me. |
So why are "vintage transformers" better than the ones wound now, specifically for these amps? Old is good? |
Vicdamone, how does the NuForce Ref 9 sound compared to the Cherry 180? I have not had Class D amps in my system. I've heard them in other systems and at shows, but the sound never won me over. |
Voskhod 12AX7 for only $1.70! Let us know how it sounds. However, it looks like you have to rewire the filament connection because it only accepts 6.3 V, not 12.6 V. Not sure how the 12AX7s in the Carvers are connected. |
The Absolute Sound Editors Choice and Product of the Year was also given to the NuForce Reference 9 switching amplifiers reviewed by TAS Senior Writer Chris Martens in 2009. Within a few months a small group of that periodicals writers, with the exception of Martens, panned the product in an unbelievably half assed "class D shootout."
On the other hand I've owned both the NuForce and now the Carver VTA 180's which are very similar to the more powerful Black Beauty's which were reviewed by Executive Editor Jonathan Valin in the December 2012 issue. My experience with both sets of mono blocks was and is very similar to the descriptions by both Martens and Valin.
I have a pair of Voskhod 12AX7 that I have yet to try. |
If anyone hasn't noticed, the Carver Black Beauty Amp won Editors Choice and Product of the Year awards by The Absolute Sound for 2012. And for some of you trying to figure out what boutique capacitor the amp uses (it doesn't), I would pay more attention to the sound of the amp than name brand parts. I put Vcaps for output coupling and am not sure they made a significant difference. It is the best amp I've ever used. If you really want to hear a significant upgrade in sound, get a pair of Psvane 12AX7 and 12AT7s, which are magical in this amp. Sound better than NOS Telefunken smooth plate 12AX7 and RCA 12AT7s. |
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The new Carver tube amps only have two pins on their IEC power connection, but any standard 15 amp IEC power cable can be used. Apparently they are a floating ground design. |
I realize this is an old thread. What's up with the IEC on these units? They appear to accept only two pronged cords,or am I mistaken? |
I owned a Phase Linear 4000 preamp, it was quad, and I thought it sounded good, but that was compared to "midfi" and not "high end". Once I compared it to "high end", I discovered it sounded kind of "tinney" and when I looked inside, the parts were cheap.
The question I asked in regard to the capacitors was very specific, "What kind of capacitors does he use"? |
The only other Carver product I've owned was a pair of Phase linear 400's in the early seventies for PA use. This was in the infancy of solid state but those amps took a hell of a lot of abuse with no problems until they were eventually sold over nine years later.
I don't have any experience with Carver's later gear. I'm told he still maintains Carver service for all his products.
I was skeptical until I did the research and talked to other owners. This circuit was designed by Carver and Tim de Paravicini. Whatever engineering tricks they used to come up with this level of performance is impressive to me. He partnered with Bob Farinelli to produce the amps and with Tony Ferrero to manufacture. I'm told Carver himself was involved in the design but not the manufacture.
I spent twenty-two years servicing engineering printing, plotting, and copying equipment. I know shit manufacturing when I see it. The by hand assembly work in my amplifiers is very well done. The product carries a seven year transferable warrantee and one year on tubes.
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Using the most expensive parts does not meet the bottom line, which is profit. I've owned carver products that used engineering tricks to sound good, but used cheap parts that don't stand the test of time. |
I was more interested in construction quality and the lack of using printed wire boards and crimped connectors. Also, I wasn't interested in paying for fancy casework. Mine are handsomely finished in black.
In voicing audio components using the most expensive parts may not meet the designers goal.
Your seeing the MSRP. You should contact Underwood HiFi soon regarding price and your capacitor question. He mentioned a possible price increase but I'm not sure when. |
Could you find out what kind of capacitors he uses. For that price, I want premium well known capacitors |
I thought I had a problem. It turned out to be one of my DIY power cables had a loose connection.
I did ship the amp back to Kentucky were it was run in for some time, tested, and I was promptly contacted. I subsequently found the cable problem and the amp was returned.
All in all the issue, or the lack of an issue, was communicated and handled very well. The VTA 180s have turned out to be an incredible fit in my system. |
Has anyone had any reliability problems with these amps or can comment? |
Zaphodbeeblebrox, I have a question for you could you PM me?
babafink@comcast.net |
I live here in Kentucky and bought a pair of Bob Carver Cherry 180M amplifiers.
These are the best amps that I have ever had, I won't try and describe the sound they make. I was never good at trying to describe what "bright", "warm", and all the other terms that reviews use to describe a speakers sound. I do know what sounds good to my ears and what doesn't. Besides, I am sure the "sound" will change depending on what speakers, Pre-amp, tubes, and source choices are. What I will tell you is that before these amps I was using a pair of Jolida 1000P stereo tube amps, and before that I had used McIntosh MC-2105, Jeff Rowland model 3 mono amps, NAD 272 Stereo amp, Magnum Audio Stereo Amp, and I am sure there was some others in there as well.
Of course along with all these other amps I also had many other Pre-amps, sources, and speakers so it would be hard to give you a true A to B comparison.
So let me tell you about the Bob Carver Cherry 180M mono blocks, they are truly hand built, point to point wired, and solidly put together in an attractive case that is painted Cherry Red with Black transformer covers and Gold name plates. I was able to go to Lexington and tour the small facility where they hand build these amps. So yes, $7k might sound like a lot of money for a pair of amps but when you honestly consider that these are Hand Built with point to point wiring by Kentuckians in Kentucky and not some sweat shop in some foreign country with slave labor you will understand that these are actually a bargin. I am not saying that parts inside the Amp are not from china, I believe some of the tubes are Chinese as are resistors etc. because this is a manufacturing company they have to get parts where they can at a reasonable cost and it is impossible to source a parts from America. These amps are made so well that I would venture a guess that they will still be working 50 years from now.
So that takes care of the build quality, as for sound. Well with these I have a full range of sound, from low wall shaking bass when playing Daft Punk via the Turntable or the highs of a woman's voice like on Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon. And with all thats going on in the music with Pink Floyd's The Wall it all becomes clear and precise. At least I think that how I should have described it. I sure some one will correct me if I get it wrong. So let's say you just want to Rock, spin some Iron Maiden The Final Frontier and prepare to just enjoy metal the way it was intended. The soundstage is huge with depth and the amp is dead quiet, thanks to a volume control built into the amps. Plenty of power available too with 200 watts per channel.
I have had my amps for about six months now and have not been disappointed one bit, of course I did change out the factory 12AT7 and 12AX7 tubes with new production Tung-Sol 12AT7 and new production Electro Harmonix 12AX7 tubes. But that's part of tube ownership, tube rolling. So is the heat that these produce, however they do not produce as much heat as my previous Jolida Tube Amps. And even my favorite Solid State Jeff Rowland put out a lot of heat under load.
So, I would recommend looking in to the Bob Carver Cherry 180M amps if you are wanting to get into tube amps. To get anything better you would probably have to spend well over 20k on VAC or something similar. Hey I would be surprised if these are the last amps you buy, so it you spread the cost out over 20 years the cost is quite low (That was a joke).
My System is:
Leben HiFi RS28CX Tube Pre-Amp with Tube MM phono stage and outboard Tube rectified power supply.
Bob Carver Cherry 180M Tube Mono Blocks
Janton A&V 803 Real Full range loudspeakers
Pro-Ject Xtension turntable with 12" Evo Carbon Fiber Tone Arm
Ortofon 2M Bronze Cartridge
Denon 3800BDCI Blu-ray player
Jadis JS-1 Tube D.A.C.
AppleTV 3rd Gen
Playstation 3
Core Audio Component Rack
Core Audio Amp Isolation Stands
Tice Power Block
Luminous Audio interconnect
Wireworld Silver HDMI
Luminous Audio Speaker Cable
50" Plasma Hitachi |
Sorry for the delayed response. Life has been happening big time. I love these amps more than ever. I don't have anything negative to say about them. I believe to date they are some of the finest mono-blocks ever made and the value is stunning. |
Thankful, reading the thread and your tube amplifier comparisons. Are you still happy with the 180s? Is there any new likes or dislikes to report? |
01-09-12: Husk01
Check out the video review at Avshowrooms.com Great new site.
. indeed! thank you for this info & the link. |
The best amps I have heard are tubes, and use some feedback. True there are many feedback designs un-listenable, just as many zero feedback designs have their own set of issues, and to my ears lack musical believability. Jallen |
Agreed. Dismissal of an amp because of negative feedback is a gross misunderstanding and overly simplistic understanding of circuit design as is dismissal of an amp due to transformers. OTL is a valid approach obviously, but at what cost? The sound into real speakers will tell the story and the ear will be the judge. |
A slight correction would be Bob said "flea powered tube amplifiers" were not his cup of tea. The Silver Seven amplifiers he created at Carver were tubed but produced over 300 watts. |
Basically just the power rating. Very similar sonic signature according to to Bob and Tony. Not sure how much different beneath the hood. |
What is the sound difference in the 180 compared to 305's? |
My Cherry 180 is more transparent than my AtmaSphere M60 which is saying a lot, but my 180 has the vintage transformer and Vcap coupling caps with better binding posts, RCA connector, and captive PC cord that the standard 180s lack. It's all around best top 5 amps I've heard. |
Thanks Husk01!!!
The reviewer rates them in the top 10% of all tube amps he has ever heard (which means at any price)!! I knew they were special the first time I heard them. |
Check out the video review at Avshowrooms.com Great new site. |
if you don't have big bucks the best buy out there is the Pure class A Zero feedback Spirit 3 Integrated retail $5200
but $4500 deliverd is possible and 60wpc pure class A pentode ,or 40wpc Triode is more than enough for most people not going deaf.The unit is almost 80 lbs transformers are huge by Any standard and are superb
from Lundahl of Sweden and the new MK3 is Totally redesigned with Austrian-German Build quality better than Any even at $10k makes Prima luna look Bad . |
Ayon Triton, MAC, and VTL. The MAC and VTL belonged to a friend I work with. All the other comparisons would include ss. |
Thankful, for a point of reference, what tube amps have you own that you are comparing to Bob Carver 180? |
Audioquest4life - Great observation, I believe some of what has been occurring in the audio world is border line insanity. As I talk and correspond with folks like yourself I'm finding frustration with over the top high pricing. As folks like Bob push the envelope and price fairly the competition will have to take notice and follow suit. Like most people I have to pull every trick in the book to raise money for this hobby. So when something of this quality comes along I feel better about the purchase. The competition had better take notice of these type of trends. I'll repeat again that I believe the 180's will compete with much more expensive mono-blocks. |
"It looks like one of the breakthroughs on these Bob Carvers is bringing this performance profile to more more affordable levels and reasonable size. No small feat."
It is about time that a tech savvy individual has been able to bring a product to market with a great cost to performance ratio. We need more of that in order to allow people with shallow pockets to delve into the market. I am starting to see trends in other products where a manufacturer develops an introductory product incorporating lots of technology based on their top of the line products. Good news.
Ciao,
Audioquest4life |
According to the Bob Farinelli they really pushed the envelope with the 180's and 305's. I can attest to the fact that these are some of the best sounding mono-blocks tube amps I have heard at any price. They will be in my system for a long time. |
