But, tylermunns, the same can be said of practically every instrumentalist that played this music. So, you’re saying that all those great instrumentalists that played, for instance, “All The Things You Are” were not playing Jazz at all? That all those great performances of “three minute pop tunes” that served as vehicles for Jazz improvisation were not Jazz at all? Not arguing, just trying to understand your viewpoint. Getting back to singers, please name other singers besides Lincoln that you consider to truly be Jazz singers.
In the meantime, how about a little non-Jazz 😉:
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@frogman
"For me an even more interesting question is why, when considering artists in the admittedly very small group at the very top level of excellence, some listeners feel the need to declare one or the other “the best” as if that opinion is some sort of objective truth".
Well, we all have egos. One thing I've noticed about mine-- it 's very enamored of trying to (objectively) "validate" it's subjective preferences, Of course, this is an impossible quest but that doesn't stop it trying! :o)
It's only because I recognize this in myself that I recognize it in others. It's so very "human".
@tylermunns
"As far as vocalists go, Ella isn’t “straight jazz.” When we talk of vocalists of this ilk, (Holiday, Vaughn, Washington, Sinatra, etc.) I don’t consider any of them “straight jazz.” I think of Abbey Lincoln who, by the 1960s, was singing real-deal jazz music with the great Max Roach (her husband). Brilliant.
Those previously mentioned vocalists are singing the songs of Jerome Kern, Cole Porter, the Gershwins, Harold Arlen, Rodgers & Hart, Irving Berlin, Rodgers & Hammerstein, etc. "
I hope I misunderstand but you seem to be asserting in the above post that when Jazz musicians play/sing tunes written by Jazz musicians, they are Jazz artists but once they tackle "songbook" material, they suddenly (in your mind) morph into something suspect-- something lesser-- something somehow not quite "legit". What are they, then. at such moments-- Pop artists? Coltrane playing Naima is Jazz but Coltrane playing "My Favorite Things" is Pop?
"When I think of jazz vocalists, I think of people singing jazz music"
Judging whether something is Jazz solely based upon the origins of the material seems to me a very distorted perspective.
Have you considered why "My Funny Valentine", "All The Things You Are", etc. have been interpreted many many times and in many different ways by "straight' Jazz players? Perhaps there is something about these tunes that lend themselves to exploration via a Jazz esthetic that makes them valued by Jazz musicians?
Betty Carter is a supreme example of an artist who took "standards" and truly made them her own. If you don't recognize that as the very essence of Jazz, you and I, Sir, hail from very different planets.
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"Jazz is a way of playing music." --- Jelly Roll Morton. (he should know)
Which means all of the first Jazz tunes, were not Jazz, when written, but played in a Jazz style later.
Cheers
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@rok2id
"Jazz is a way of playing music." --- Jelly Roll Morton. (he should know)
Which means all of the first Jazz tunes, were not Jazz, when written, but played in a Jazz style later"
Yes! This is exactly what I was attempting to convey!
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barts -- I’m mightily impressed with your concert going. My parents saw Sinatra a couple times in Vegas. Sinatra at the Sands? I’m not quite sure. They did, however, take me and my sister to see Sammy Davis Jr. when he was in Vegas. In any case, their "con-oy-zer" selection of MOR is now in my hands.
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@stuartk
“You seem to be asserting that once jazz musicians tackle “songbook” material, they suddenly (in your mind) morph into something suspect, something lesser, something somehow not quite ‘legit’”
I neither asserted, nor even insinuated any such value judgement on jazz compositions or pop compositions.
I addressed a question in this thread regarding jazz singers. I am not sure how to define such, as jazz seems to be dominated by instrumental music, and artists’ catalogs like those of Holiday, Fitzgerald, Vaughn, etc. are so heavily populated with pop songs of the ‘20s-‘50s. I don’t see how my language betrayed anything derisive regarding those incredible songs.
I am, and have been for a long time, a deep lover of those songs. My piano playing over the last year has increased noticeably via my constant digging in to those very songs. This music is less intimidating to take on as a player than Sergei Rachmaninoff’s or Thelonius Monk’s, but still challenging and simply a joy to study and play. I just love them, and love being able to actually play them now with something that resembles competence. I am, and always have been, a ravenous, insatiable pop guy.
I consider jazz to be that singular, unique, original music of Parker, Gillespie, Davis, Monk, Coltrane, Mingus, Roach, we could go on and on, and further on into the ‘60s and ‘70s, Coleman, Taylor, Art Ensemble of Chicago, I could go on. I really get excited by the music of those last three, plus Don Cherry, Roland Kirk, again, I could go on.
That’s my take.
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@tylermunns the songs of Jerome Kern, Cole Porter, the Gershwins, Harold Arlen, Rodgers & Hart, Irving Berlin, Rodgers & Hammerstein, etc. These are some of the greatest pop songwriters in history, but not what I would call jazz.
Substitute jazz for country + Broadway for rock n roll = You call it jazz, I call it bad Broadway. Sam does get to it after 5 minutes in case you want to skip ahead.
The Geezenzlaws swinging out on a rope. That would be one of those things which seen cannot be unseen.
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@chowkwan
I love that show! When Glen sings “Gentle on my Mind” and kicks the buh-jeesuz out of the guitar solo, it’s sooooo fantastic!
Is that Jerry Jeff on the far left, in the blue shirt and black hat?
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There's bop, bip bop, bebop, rebop, hard bop, post bop, Cowboy BeBop and even BeBop Deluxe. What does it ll mean except that it's all music.
As the great trumpeter said, “I'll play it first and tell you what it is later.”
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@tylermunns You are alright if you like country. For those unaware of what @tylermunns is talking about:
I do believe the gentleman you're talking about is not Jerry Jeff but Waylon. Y'know I just purely cannot resist.
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@chowkwan I figured it out, the guy is Bobby Bare.
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With respect to Billie Holiday vs Ella Fitzgerald, I find that the emotion that Ella conveys is more subtle, but it's there. Billie Holiday can be a bit over the top for me.
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A late posting by me.
Billie Holliday "Lady In Satin" with Ray Ellis Orchestra. The feeling in those aging textured vocals with marvelous backing. IMO it was her best.
Ella's "Songbook" will always be extraordinary.
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@tylermunns
"I consider jazz to be that singular, unique, original music of Parker, Gillespie, Davis, Monk, Coltrane, Mingus, Roach, we could go on and on, and further on into the ‘60s and ‘70s, Coleman, Taylor, Art Ensemble of Chicago, I could go on. I really get excited by the music of those last three, plus Don Cherry, Roland Kirk, again, I could go on. That’s my take".
And my take is that Jazz is first and foremost an improvisatory language whose character is not defined by whether the material being playing is original to the artist.
We can simply agree to disagree and leave it at that.
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@stuartk ”an improvisatory language.” That’s not vague at all.
Any kind of fancy, martini-clinking music with improvisation in it? Okay.
I’ll just wear a tux to my next gig and start scatting and getting all busy with my extemporaneous playing, doing a Katy Perry cover. That’ll be, “jazz.”
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@edcyn
Thanks for the compliment...but don't be that impressed...it what was presented to me by happenstance of location.
Here's a few more for ya:
Saw the original cast of "Hair" on B'way, was outstanding nudity and all.
Allman Bros at the Capital Theater in Passaic NJ when Duane was alive and they (it could be argued) were at their peak with those members. Just after the Fillmore East concerts.
Spoke with Jerry and Phil prior to a concert of the GD at Roosevelt Stadium in Jersey City. Phil was way into talking about the sound system.
Saw the GD at RFK Stadium in '74 with the "Wall of Sound"! Simply and completely out of control in an amazing way. The only thing I've heard live that is close was Sting at Radio City, that was awesome as well.
Oh yeah, saw Sting at the Bottom Line in NYC play the first concert in the US when Dreams of the Blue Turtles came out. Small club (think gymnasium) and was five or six feet from the low stage, beer in hand. Spoke for a moment. Nice guy.
That's enough for one day.
Regards,
barts
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@tylermunns
Now you're just looking for a fight.
You STILL do not get my point and I've lost patience trying to explain.
I'm done.
M
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