What terrific feedback! Thanks so much everyone for your help with this.
In answer to a few of the questions asked above:
- I have fairly eclectic musical tastes. I listen to old folk and country (think Bascomb Lamar Lunsford and Ralph Stanley), jazz (Jarrett, Monk), rock (Pixies, Patti Smith, M.I.A, the Dead.), symphonic classical, opera, world (mainly Japanese since I lived there for so long, and Brazilian of the quasi-jazzlike Milton Nascimiento variety). I really would not want to have my system be a major impediment to listening to any type of music
- My normal listening position will be about 12-15 feet from the front wall (which is actually windows) and slightly off-center. We will also use the room for entertaining a few times a month so being able to fill the room with low to moderate volume music would be useful
I am totally unfamiliar with horns. Would something like Avantgarde Trios with subwoofers be a good approach? I'm a bit concerned about the bass module crossover, and soundstaging
Thanks again for the advice! I've already spent hours searching the web trying to form a view on everyone's recommendations. |
Maybe consider the large PBN whip ass speaker (WAS) |
Rr999, I'd just like to suggest that you indicate to the assembled multitude what kinds of music you listen to. The need for high speaker efficiency, given the moderate power rating of your amplifier, will be especially important if your listening includes music having wide dynamic range, meaning a wide DIFFERENCE in volume between the loudest notes and the softest notes.
It is not uncommon, for example, for well engineered classical symphonic recordings to reach brief volume peaks that are 30 db or more greater than their average volume, and 40 to 50 db or more greater than the volume of their softest notes. A 30 db ratio of peak to average volume levels means that you will need 1,000 times as much power for volume peaks compared to the average levels of those recordings. And a 50 db difference between the loudest and softest notes requires 100,000 times as much power for the loudest notes as compared to the softest notes.
Many and probably most rock recordings, on the other hand, are compressed to a dynamic range that is in single digits as expressed in db, meaning less than 10 times as much power is required for volume peaks as compared to the softest notes.
Perhaps differences in the kinds of music that are listened to by those who have posted contribute to the divergence of opinion.
Good luck in your search.
Regards,
-- Al |
And oh.. Btw I'm quite familiar with the Wilson Sasha, my brother owns and currently use them in an all ARC system. I don't think they would cut it in a room that size. Possibly if your ceiling is the norm 9-11', otherwise, as others here have suggested, you might need at least the Maxx2/3s to do the job right. Then, there'll be amp question.. While I'm sure your Luxman have the 'watts' for sPLs (Maxxes are quite efficient), I doubt they'll have the requisite 'currents' to properly control them woofers.
So, I'd too say yes, explore bigger more efficient speakers if you are not looking to major overhaul your entire system.
Good luck! |
All this talk about what speaker will fill what room, with not much mention about how it's going to sound in the end. You should allot 1/3 of your speaker budget towards room treatment. You are going to need a lot of it.
Shakey |
Another good candidate to look at would be Tannoy larger Prestige line. Probably Westminster or better still the Westminster Royal SE. Had them for years in a room almost as large, driven by Cary 300SE (15w), then later Cary CAD805 (50w), filled the room sweetly without a sweat. Your Luxman will be more than up to task, I'm sure.
At one point, a friend looking to buy these speakers demoed them at my home and brought his Accuphase (less than) 100w integrated+Sony 555ES cdp if I recalled correctly, it sounded great too that he ended up with the Canterbury (one model down). Definitely worth to check out ie.if you don't mind/love their classic look. |
I'd say pick up a pair of old OHM Walsh 5s somewhere for <$1000 and give those a shot first before spending big bucks. You'd have little to loose and much to save/gain even if they do not cut it. They can be resold easily with little or no loss,or traded in to OHM for up to 40% discount on a newer pair if desired.
I would love to have a room that size for any OHMs and would never trade it if I did for anything in the smaller rooms most of us are limited to in our homes. I've found the OHm Walsh CLS speakers are NEVER the bottleneck. In your case, the amp would be, but it may still be good enough that it not matter. MAxing out the amp with the OHMs in a room that size should be an incredible experience that I would love to hear! That or the option of adding a good powered sub.
[url=http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/687ohm/]1987 Stereophile Review of the OHM Walsh 5[/url] |
In addition to the other suggestions, if you can find them, Duntech Sovereigns or Dunlavy SC Vs or VIs could give you that big sound, but I doubt that the Luxman would be up to driving them to best effect in that big a room (especially the Sovereigns which, despite their relatively decent stated efficiency, really need an amp that can control their low frequency drivers).
If you really want to fill the room with your current equipment, I think Atmasphere's advice is the best; or else you can just use part of the room in a more nearfield setup as others have suggested, that would give you far more options. The glass walls will be an acoustic problem for you, I'm sure. |
OHM F 5015's with 15" powered subs built in for ~$10,000 (if available currently) can fill that room as good as just about anything dsigned for home use, I would bet. The powered subs would take a lot of load off the main Luxman amp and could work very well I am thinking.
My OHM F5s which are similar but without powered subs running off my $3600 used BEl Canto ref1000m 500w/ch amps could even do a respectable job I bet. This combo has yet to show any signs of stress or breakup at any volume in my setup. The wide range OHM CLS Walsh driver that handles most music up to ~7Khz or so and minimizes demand on the tweeter is a big reason for that. Few other speaker designs can compare in terms of ability to go loud and clear, perhaps none at similar cost.
Older earlier generation OHM Walsh 4s or 5s might be had for less than $1000 used. I have used old OHM Walsh 2s outdoors even off an 80w/ch Tandberg receiver, and volume was never an issue. It sounded as much like live music as most anything I have ever heard, including many big buck reference systems. The sound of the older model OHM Walsh speakers are not as refined overall in most rooms as the latest and greatest, but might work very well for very little if room size and acoustics becomes the bottleneck towards achieving the kind of high end audiophile sound one might expect in most rooms.
Pro gear is more often applied in very large rooms/venues. Not as sexy, but perhaps the most bang per buck? |
The Classic speakers don't have the resolution. This is a load of bull. The Classic Audio keeps up with any of them. Its beryllium midrange field-coil driver is very fast, relaxed and revealing. The speaker uses Mundorf caps in the crossover with 6db slopes. You need to do the math. You have a big room, and speakers with moderate efficiency (89-93 db) will not fit the bill with any integrated I know of, not if you want to fill the room with anything that sounds like real music. So if the speaker has less than 96 db I would strike it from the list, unless you feel like getting a 500 watt amplifier to drive them, because that is what you are going to need with speakers of lower efficiency. For example, if you have a speaker of 91 db and a 500-watt amp, you will be able to play at exactly the same levels with a 125-watt amp if the speaker is 97 db. The reason is because our ears work on a logarithmic scale rather than a linear scale. So to get 3 db increase in volume requires double the amplifier power. 3 db is not a lot! 10 db sounds like it is twice as loud, but that takes 10X more power. If you were using a smaller room this would be easy. But the advantage of a large room is that the virtual size of the musicians becomes life-like in the sound field- something you can't do in a small room. So you need a speaker with the bandwidth, resolution and efficiency. Most decent speakers have two of those three attributes. The reason I am an advocate of the Classic Audio Loudspeaker is that it has all three. So does the Audiokinesis Dreammaker, although it is slightly less efficient, it is still more efficient than most speakers mentioned so far. The problem you are going to run into with speakers of lower efficiency is that by the time you get the life-like levels, you are going to be pushing the speaker pretty hard and its going to do some compression. Plus you can count the number of musical natural sounding amps that make 500 watts or more on one hand with fingers left over, price no object. That is why when you get into situations like this there is the expression 'gold-plated decibels'. Go with a more efficient speaker and this will get a lot easier! |
Audiooracle, I agree that a lot of the speakers wont be able to fill a large room, but I dont think the Salks are in that category. At the 2010 RMAF the Salks were in the Iris ballroom. Steve Stone of TAS said they were the best sound of the show and they were playing a lot of orchestral music.
Bob |
How far will the speakers be from the back wall?
If 4' or more, I saw some used Genesis 200's (dipole hybrids) listed but they have the older-style Carver ribbons. Serenity Acoustics is a brand new venture that displayed at RMAF with the OB/servo sub Super 7's but I don't think they even have a website yet.
How far from the speakers would be your listening position?
If more than 15', maybe line arrays like http://angelcityaudio.com/products/gr-research/
Saw some used LS9's listed on audiocircle.
Don't under-estimate that Luxman. |
you need giant speakers most of the products mentioned can not fill a room of that size sufficiently, and it is not a matter of just efficiency it is of bass response and the ability to move a huge column of air, other issues will be of limiting echo and reflection.
A pair of Maxx or other similar sized speakers will do it.
The Salons, Aerials, are not big enough. The Avante Gardes are a good but can sound shouty and are super fussy.
Salks won't do it either, Tyler you can never hear and have O resale value, as with other home brew speaker companies.
The Classic speakers don't have the resolution. |
Yeah, I tend to agree with the idea that if your seriously sticking with that gear?....well, don't bother going down the road with that speaker list! To truly eek out the performance from them you will need tons of cash beyond just the speakers to make them sing properly. Serious;y, look into the JBL arrays perhaps for some ass kicking fun with the power you have now. |
If you own the house and your wife does not mind you would be better off building a room within that room. You certainly have enough space. |
Thanks so much everyone. I am now more confused than ever! I especially appreciated P59teitel's extensive discussion of the pros and cons of each speaker I had put forward. I'll also explore some of the other suggestions kindly proffered. I'll make sure to post back with an update later. |
A big room like that is likely one that you want to leverage, and not fight, unless you are up for major sound treatment expense. Omnidirectional speakers lend themselves to that with their tendency to fill a room with sound rather than fire it directly at you.
I'd love to hear my big OHM F5s in a room that size. I think the Luxman could do a pretty decent job.
An alternate approach would be to go for near field listening. That opens up many new possibilities, including with the current amp. |
That room is going to be a nightmare. You may as well resign yourself to the fact that you will only realize a certain precentage of what any speaker is capable of. Those 17' ceilings will surely be your undoing.
Shakey |
I would get the salon 2s and a new amp and maybe you can add a sub if you feel the need. Another thought would be dynaudio c4s but again you need more power in that room. I'd put half my budget into big awesome power it's going to mean more than anything else in that room. |
Horning eufrodites pulled way into the room to create an amazing soundstage:
http://www.ultraaudio.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=203:fall-road-trip-high-water-sound-and-wes-bender-studio-nyc&catid=31:general&Itemid=46 |
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I think whether the 120 w/ch Luxman would cut it or not with the less efficient speakers would likely depend on listening habits, volumes, type of music, etc.
Having powered subs in the mix would help if needed. |
I know that verity Audio speakers tend too do well in big rooms I think this has something to do with the rear woofer. But I a not sure if you amp is up to the job. I cannot say either way. |
I know everyone is going to recommend their own speaker brand, but don't forget Daedalus. Lou's Ulysses speakers fill a vast room at RMAF, they look stunning and are ridiculously low in price + every year they get a "best of Show" report at RMAF. What's not to like? |
dc10 audio "the instrument" but more $$$ perhaps the dealer in Denver or CT will give a big cut. |
I would not overlook Coincident. |
I've heard the Anats in a decent sized room. Very nice, at least with the acoustic vocal jazz recordings demoed.
The audiokinesis and Classic Audio suggestions are probably a good one for use with the integrated amp. Less efficient speakers may need more juice in a very large room. Class D amps are a nice fit there, but that would require an amp switch if that were an option. |
Thanks so much everyone: there's an a great amount of info here to parse through and I'll spend the next few hours researching everyone's suggestions.
One feature that attracted me to the YGs was that they incorporate active amplification for the woofers. Has anyone heard these in a large room? |
See all the suggestions your getting? BIG ROOM...BIG PROBLEMS!! I had one and moved to a smaller room and system. If it's all about moving air for dance music and the like, then just get JBL K's or something. To enjoy the subtelty and texture of the music, you will need magic in a room that size. A pair of Wilsom MAXX's maybe would do it? |
This is a second recommendation for the Classic Audio Loudspeaker. You will want the efficiency!
If that is outside of your budget the Dreammaker by Audiokinesis is another possibility- it is relatively efficient too. The other speakers in your list will need about 4X more amplifier power at the very least. |
WHoops, sorry, I of course meant to say 8500 cubic feet, not 8500 square feet.
Sorry. |
John Strohbeen at OHm Acoustics has recently been touting some new models in the $10K range that incorporates large 15" powered subs into the model 5000 design that otherwise is advertised for up to 8500 sq. feet or so (and costs ~ $6500 or sowithout the powered subs). Might be worth a call to OHM to see what might be done there. |
I second the Tyler Acoustic Speakers...I have the Woodmere II's in a room that is 30 x 25 and they are fantastic...My suggestion is to contact Ty and have him build the speaker that will work best for you (drivers, crossovers,tweeters etc), not only sonically but also aesthetically as he has many grains of fine wood to choose from. His wood and workmanship is top notch...and best of all its MADE IN THE USA |
I suggest the Salk SoundScape 12s. They are incredible with vinyl. You are not likely to find them used, but since they are internet only, the price is much less than a bricks and mortar place would have them. They sound very natural and have so broad a dispersion that they have a similar tonal balance at any seat in your room The image would suffer, of course, but the tone would be very similar anywhere. Of course, I wouldnt buy this or any other speaker without hearing them first.
Bob |
Just some general thoughts on each of the five speakers you've mentioned:
a) Revel Salon 2s: I own these and am very familiar with them - see my virtual system for more info. Pros: soundstaging is outstanding - they disperse very well and so your sweet spot is expanded, a considerable asset if you seek to move about your large room. And certainly capable of filling your room. Also they are very neutral speakers that should do well in your glassy room. Cons: they are not very efficient and would quite likely require more power than what your Luxman would provide, especially in a room that size. A few have complained that they are lifeless, although I do not agree.
b) Wilson Sasha: Have heard these on several occasions. Pros: very nice in well-treated rooms. Excellent, propulsive mid-bass and very extended treble. "Front-row" sound if that is what you are looking for. A little easier to drive than the Salon 2s. Cons: not a paragon of neutrality. Humped in the bass and treble, and that latter quality may make them fatiguing in a glassy room. Don't soundstage as well as the Salon 2s, nor is dispersion as good. But they might have been my choice for a man cave.
c) Aerial 20T: have only heard once. Pros: good bass when properly fed (like the Salon 2s, they seem to need to feed). Very good midrange coherence. Cons: tweeter did not seem to disperse well, so restricted sweet spot.
d) YG Anat Studio II: have not heard. Plenty of reviews of them both from publications (which seem to like them) and show attendees (mixed bag, some say they are grainy and/or lifeless while others think they are neutral and/or revealing).
e) Rockport Mira Grand II: have not heard (but I would like to). Not generally a D'Appolito configuration fan myself, but both pro reviews and blogs from people attending shows seem pretty uniformly positive. |
My room is 30'x30'x 12', and my Tyler Acoustics Woodmeres do a superb job of filling the entire room with full, rich sound. My listening chair is 18 feet from the face of speakers. I have found the Woodmeres to be very listenable for long periods, and I plan to keep them for as long as I'm around. |
If you want something that will actually fill that large a
room I would suggest something like the Classic Audio
Reproductions T-1. I've heard them at RMAF in a very large
room and they worked well.
They are very efficient and should work well with your
amplification. Most of the speakers you list are not
efficient enough for your amp. Especially in that large of a
space. |
someone (not me) is auctioning off a pair of Genelec monitors on audiogon right now. that is an enormous space you're referring to by anyone's standards.
depending on your musical tastes and your interest in acoustic treatments would
perhaps be the greatest challenge of all in this case.
Of course I could also imagine a number of price-no-object speaker systems (4 cabinets) doing a great job of pushing enough air around that room to give you the kind of clean dB's that would also sound - "there are no words"- |
I'd also love any thoughts from the community on Wilson Sashas or any other speakers that might do well in a big room in that (used) price range. |
If you want to fill such a huge room and enjoy to listen close to life levels the speakers mentioned won't do the job IMO. Also you need speakers with a narrow dispersion. I'd like to suggest some used Avantgarde Omega Duos but you would have to add another set of 225 subs. Also a Luxman integrated, even though probably not the best amps, will have plenty of juice to fill that huge space with sound when using 107 db efficient horns |
The Luxman 509u @ 120 wpc is too low powered to properly drive any of these speakers. You should consider more efficient speakers from DeVore, Silverline, JM Labs or Coincident. |
