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Bidat vs Perfect Wave vs Weiss and others

This is thread I started a while ago and promised in February i would start doing some real world comparative testing using the Bidat (Plus Mod) as the ref. The units under test are to include in no specific order the MSB Platinum Dac, the Weiss Minervera and the Playback Design player. I posted this under the follow-up of the original thread and it is there is you do a search under Digital for "ps audio perfect". I can't understand why it did not 'promote' to the top of the digital section as it did in the past whenever there was a new contribution, so I have started a new related thread with the first entry of my fun (and I hope edifying comparative experiences).
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Ok, I just got a broken in Weiss Minerva (several hundred hours at least). It has been in my system burning in for about 18 hours (18 hours since arriving in my home, time to come to thermal equilibrium). I have done some comparative listening to the Museatex Dcc-1 (a rarely known digital preamp 19 bit dual differential type) using glass Tos on both and then glass on the DCC1 vs a very expensive (can't name it yet as the manufacturer has not released it...sorry :( ) Firewire on the Weiss. I have a Mac Mini (2007 model) 2.0 ghz Core2Duo with 4Gig of ram running Leopard (although this model can only see 3.01 gig of that (I used 4gig as the memory transfer is optimized when the mem modules are the same). I also have a 1TB NAS (all over wifi). I am of course going to reserve final judement until a bit later.

I will be comparing the Museatex Bidat with the Plus Mod later this weekend. As a teaser, I will go on record and say that honestly at this point I don't agree with the stellar reviews concerning the Weiss Minerva.

It is resolute, almost technicolor but just to give you a short glimpse of what I am hearing, I could imagine a well healed vinyl person listening to Holly Cole on vinyl and then listening to the Weiss (playing the same in CD format) and saying "this is why I will never leave vinyl". Now that may sound harsh, but this is a hobby and I don't have a dog in the race, I am just reporting my ears findings.

I listened to a few high resolution files 176.4/24 and 96/24 but what I heard was a really clear highly resolved soul-less rendition of the music. It never ever made me smile or relax into the music the way the DCC-1/Bidat or even my former (when I actually spun cd's...wow time flies) stellar Dynavox Dynastation 2 (the finest CD player I have ever heard).

In a nutshell (at this point) it just sounds like digital and that aint good in my camp because I am not forgetting about the gear and just listening to the music. I don't like syrupy or dark, I have heard plenty of players try to use that trick to sound musical. No, I look for something that is more elusive and few their be that find that magical combination when forging through the nether regions of the digital domain. I will continue listening to see if the Weiss surprises me :)

More to come...
audiofun

Showing 9 responses by tbg

tbg
5,263 posts
 
I just noticed this thread. All that I can say is that my experiences are greatly at odds with what has been said here. Initially, I just used the Minerva driven by several transports and a music server. With the exception of using it with the Oppo 83 as a transport, I was quite impressed with the sound. This was primarily the width and depth of the soundstage as well as the bass. After about two weeks, I was even more impressed as the topend was more extended and sweet.

It had always been my intent to use the Minerva with a Mac server using Amarra and Firewire. The Mac has a USB output along with the Firewire 800 output, but the Minerva has no USB input. I had heard such a setup prior to buy all of this and was amazed at what I heard. When I finally got everything together and waited about a week, I would flat out say nothing in my experience with digital sources even approaches what I am hearing.

I have Shindo Labs vinyl front end and love it. The new digital front end does not sound like vinyl, it sounds like master tapes. There are several conditions, however. First, at least in my system, the Minerva at it full output overloads the line input. I find that two pushes on the Minerva down volume, while still pretty hot, works best. Second, I think the use of Firewire is essential. Unfortunately, I cannot really test this, but with my S/P DIF sources, I never got what I hear with the Mac, firewire source. Third, the Minerva and the Mac are very sensitive to power conditioning and to vibration. My mac using the trickle charger when plugged into the Synergistic Research PowerCell 10SE improved so dramatically, that I had to go back several times to make myself confident of what I was hearing.

I have never heard the Museatex Bidat DAC, but did long ago have the EMM dac. I have heard the AMR 777 and really could not stand it. The best dacs I have heard have been the input on the Lindemann 820S, the Exemplar Xindak Dac 5, and the AA tube dac.

All of this once again, suggests that component's sound depends on what is in the system and what ones tastes are. Given past experiences I expect that the Weiss Minerva will be soon displaced by another dac. Some say the new Weiss Dac 202 will do this, but I have yet to hear a production version.
tbg
5,263 posts
 
Audiofun, as I implied, my experiences are entirely contrary. I still maintain that minor system differences make a world of difference and tastes certainly differ. I have never heard the realism I hear with the Mac/Amarra/Firewire/Minerva. I am not interested in something that sounds musical, my goal is realism. Oh, I have no tubes in my system at present. I don't think I have ever even seen a Bidat.
tbg
5,263 posts
 
Some claim that all we can hope for in music reproduction is musicality. They don't mean realism, but merely that it is entertaining. This certainly is not my goal. In my 45 years as an audiophile, I have often thought that I was 95% of the way toward realism, only to have a major improvement of twice as good as it was.

Now I think of something that a professional once told me. You can always tell whether a piano heard through a wall is live or a reproduction. When you cannot, that would be a realistic system. Outside my room with the Mac/Minerva etc. I am getting very close on some well recorded albums. The best recording that I use right now is Willie Nelson and Wynton Marsalis, Two Men with the Blues.
tbg
5,263 posts
 
All that I can say is enjoy yourself. I agree that the disparity between the Minerva and the AMR is great, in the Minerva's favor.

Anyone who says that you walked in a room thinking there was a live group perplex the hell out of me. I know no one who has ever had that experience.
tbg
5,263 posts
 
You should have gotten a good deal on the Minerva as it is replaced by their Dac 202. I heard a prototype at CES versus the Minerva and heard some improvements. We will see whether that holds in my system.

I have often heard people say that they can hardly distinguish their reproduced music from live. As I said, at one time I thought I was close only to realize how far away from real I was when I got a better amp or speakers. I may still be quite distant despite being so impressed with the Mac/Amarra/Firewire/Minerva's realism, but realism is still what thrills me.
tbg
5,263 posts
 
The Weiss 202 dac and the Weiss Minerva. Europeans are claiming that they hear little benefits in moving from the Minerva to the 202.
tbg
5,263 posts
 
As a reviewer, I need to say several things. First, print and electronic magazines need advertising to survive. This was not the case in early subscription magazines like Stereophile and The Absolute Sound. There is an uncomfortable concern by both editors and reviewers in reviewing pieces from advertisers. I have known many instances of pressure from both sides in this relationship but have seldom, if ever, felt such pressure. But do personally know many manufactures and the personal efforts by small ones to make a go of their businesses. Nevertheless, I have felt that there is nothing positive that I can say about a product and simply returned it. Of course, unless the readership could note the list of "returned without review" pieces, they lack this context.

Second, you can learn the personal biases in what reviewers value when listening and key more closely on reviewers who reflect what you think to be important. You also gain familiarity with their equipment in a long review, rather than the often "blows away" etc. evaluations in posts here or elsewhere.

Finally, reviewers have listened to many components and have units for evaluation long enough to optimize them, at least within their rooms. Reviewers' rooms tend to be "above average" rooms.

Nevertheless, some individuals' postings carry more weight than others given their evident passions for what they hear. Reading between the lines, one often knows the poster has a good context for his (or rarely, her) posting and is quite sincere in what they say.

If you want negative and positive reviews in complete disregard to who advertises, you really need to learn to pay for your reviews and seek magazines not accepting advertising. The "internet generations" have learned to expect information at no cost. Lots of luck in getting unbiased information in such a circumstance.
tbg
5,263 posts
 
If I might throw another log on the fire, I got the Exemplar moded Oppo 83 in yesterday. It is, of course, a universal player with blu-ray capability. I had already compared it with the original non SE version, and it was quite superior, but this much better regulated version is the best player I have ever heard. Previously, I tried the output of this (cd only) into the Minerva, but the Oppo digital out is not very good. I have yet to try this with the new one.

I should also say that it only had about four hours of breakin last night. The teflon caps would not be anywhere near their best. More to follow, of course.

I would recommend, Audiofun, that you get a listen to this unit and there are many dealers who sell it, but it is under such heavy demand that it may be difficult to get one in your home system.
tbg
5,263 posts
 
Guys, in my experience Firewire is the best connection. I do wish read until right ripping were the rule. Despite the bit perfect claims for various drivers, I am suspicious of such claims given the time ripping takes on my Mac Powerbook. All that notwithstanding, I love the sound I am getting with the Mac/Amara/Firewire/Miinerva and have never heard its equal.
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