Best cost no object tube phono

I have heard a decent line up of Phonostages over the years.
I have gone out of my way to listen to them in all design Topologies,
SS, Valve Hybrid and Valve Input/Output.

I listen with my ears and not the Math, even though tweaking the loadings is a useful option.

I am a Tube Amp person, but failed for many years of investigation to discover Tube Phonostage Designs that were offering a acceptable Transparency, and did not get to be trialled in my system.

There are Tube Phonostages available 'now' that offer to me everything I have been on a quest for.
As a result I have in use today, a Valve Hybrid and Valve Input/ Output Phonostage available for use in my system.

If I were to decide on one only it would be a Valve Onput/ Output with SUT.
My experience of Valve Phon's is that there is a market catered for that very much enjoys a catering for those who seek a obvious 'richness' in a presentation.
This leaves a broad avenue for assessments, one mans Nirvana (Richness) is for sure another mans Nemesis if seeking (Transparent) .  

A little of topic, but still relevant...

This brand isn't discussed much, but it is a true all tube unit, AND available without second mortgage. Tube rectified.
https://www.musicdirect.com/phono-preamps/icon-audio-ps3-mk2-mmmc-phono-preamp-demo

Anyone heard one? For the price, it appears solid.

Hello rauliruegas,

You have a fair opinion that, for you personally, the noise level of an all-tube phono stage, like the Aesthetix Io, is too high to satisfy your preference versus a stone dead quiet solid-state phono stage. But this is a matter of personal, subjective preference, not an objective fact. With all but the very lowest output moving coil cartridges, most people report no noise at all with the Io.

I have used, and loved, the Aesthetix Io for over 20 years. For me the sonic realism and emotional engagement I hear from the Io vastly outweighs a very slight tube noise, if any at all, with extremely low output moving coil cartridges.

Teo, nice piece of writing. You realize it’s all assertions on your part, I’m sure. But you have left us all hanging. Is there any piece of commercial manufactured equipment that meets your very high stipulations? Or are you saying the wave kinetics unit does that? You talk about our sensitivity to odd order harmonic distortions. Does it matter if solid-state devices produce odd order distortions, if the level of those distortions relative to signal is extremely low, lower if done well than that of tube- based phono stages? If a tube-based phono stage were to have the band width that you deem to be necessary, then it would also be able to produce odd order harmonic distortions on out to super high frequencies, which might be a downside, or not. Alan Wright who designed some very fine phono stages wrote a booklet on this subject, where he also was in favor of very wide bandwidth in (tube) phono stages. He claimed to hear a difference between 1MHz bandwidth and 750kHz, using his RTP3C phono. The RTP3C used a balanced hybrid cascode input stage, a bipolar transistor on the bottom and a high Gm tube on top. This gives huge gain, very low noise, and megahertz bandwidth, not to mention balanced operation. Best of all, it could drive both tube and Ss purists nuts, because it was both. I’ve never heard the RTP3C, but I’d like to.

For tube try and get a demo with the EMT JPA 66.

Oh and if you do many users prefer its sound from the active preamp outputs ( it has a volume control function or direct out ) even if being fed to a preamp...

Like in your DAC thread, Ypsilon is insanely good but there are a million options for great tube phono stages. When you say cost not object, are we in the $25K-$50K range? Their stage with the right SUT is going to be at a best in world level. Key is just matching to your cartridge. Ypsilon has some incredible SUTs that a lot of folks use.

At a more reasonable priced unit would be the Jadis JPS3. Again, some best in world type performance for $16K.

Aesthetically, moving forward with Jadis DAC & Phono or Yspsillon DAC and phone would be brilliant and offer a contrast to your accuphase gear.

Here ARC, Allnic, VAC and a million others are available. It is just a matter of finding the right unit.

Again, PM me if you want to dig in and discuss anything.  

That’s a Scott Frankland item, as far as I can tell. (Wavestream Kinetics)

his comment about requiring a 250kz-300khz basic or fundamental bandwidth, is true.

for, when one applies a equalization circuit of any kind known, to a circuit, to change the gain of the circuit as we scale the frequency ranges, we get an interaction with the LEVEL of the signal, at the same time. thus the unit is not stable in EQ level as we change the signal levels at high speed (class D output filter problem, and in the passive crossovers of speakers and so on, and on, and on) or when we try to create a dynamic and large leading edge to a transient.

Scott has put a sequenced (apparently) pair of individually overall 250-300khz bandwidth circuits.. into a pair of eq’d circuits, to recreate the RIAA curve. It’s why the better RIAA preamps break up the eq into two curves, so as to get past the transient phase and frequency integration problem. It’s why some circuits use a very large voltage (comparatively speaking) single rail power supply system for their RIAA circuits.

In the case of tubes it can be a +300 volt single rail. this, so that when the signal goes to a very high transient level, all the complex aspects of linearity have a chance to come into existence, all while unencumbered (as much as possible) by these gain circuit derived distortions. Again, the gain distortions are alleviated (strongly relieved) by the

circuits design (staged gain),
high bandwidth,
and high voltage rail... as a set of three fundamentally important things.

In the case of tubes, we also end up with an originally linear gain on the devices (tubes) themselves and avoid the generation of odd ordered harmonics in this overall complex in situ (for tubes) environment. Solid state is all odd harmonic distortion creation. very bad. (only the SIT and the V-Fet fix this impossible to ignore odd ordered distortion problem that exists with ALL known solid state electronics.)

four things, actually....

high voltage single rail power supply, (complex reasons why)
actual linear gain devices (tubes, SIT, or V-Fet)(complex reasons why)
High bandwidth circuits (complex reasons why)
staged gain circuits (complex reasons why)

so, FOUR things for ’best RIAA", on this planet ...in the known world of functional physics... as applied in an engineering application.

Thus dynamic and micro-dynamic scaling becomes linear at as well. something that solid state cannot do, as it is all non linear gain devices with solid state. Due to how the ear works and it’s innate sensitivity to absolutely minuscule amounts of odd order distortion, this point becomes at least as important as anything else, or in effect, truly fundamental in importance. like a functional rope requiring a middle part, this gain circuit requires a linear gain device to be in place, in order for the output of the overall system to be complementary to how the ear works.

Thus: RIAA? Done correctly, done in the most functional and perfect way known to humanity, for human ears?

Low noise high voltage rail power supply, staged gain circuits each with very high bandwidth...done with tubes.

Accept no substitutes.

And that’s all she wrote.

Problem is, human ears and the associated interpretive intellects, are all individual. Some will arrive at other ideas and solutions, and promote those ’solutions’..... even if those solutions are incorrect.

If those people live long enough,and continue working the problem long enough, and if their intellect and associated hearing capacities are good enough, they will eventually arrive at the place and space I’m talking about.

Since this combination is NOT the bulk norm in overall human society, you will find very few people doing it correctly... and very few people buying said correctness... and very few people accepting or promoting said perfected correctness.

The seeker of the esoteric limit is the odd person out.. and will be either maligned by the (audiophile) masses or not recognized to exist or both at the same time.

The pinnacle, in idealization and acceptance... of the mass center of the given group (yes, even here in high end audio)...will be what they recognize as perfection, which will not be correct. It is just their (mass as a group) limit peak, is all. A thing that their limits tell them is the full reach of reality. well, that’s just wrong. human growth as a continual action, illustrates this to them, if they bother to continue to grow.

The norm... is to not reach the limit... and to have the few peak people and peak situations be considered freaks ---by the larger mass of those less prone to do the work involved in seeking perfection.

Might and mass by no means has ever made right... and this certainly applies here, in spades. Sadly, it also applies to the greater world.

This apparently is still available.
http://theaudioarchive.com/TAA_Products_Wavestream_Kinetics.htm

Plenty of features to keep an audiophool busy.

TW ACUSTIC RPS100 uses four tubes 2 12ax7 and 2 6dj8 Very well made with a great large dedicated power supply.You are able to select loading,riaa curves light on or off etc.Sounds wonderful dynamic,quiet with great midrange,great bass dynamics,soundstage and detail.I have had others this is by far the best and most versatile.

When you say money no object - do you really mean it?

Omni Gon
Audio note
Ko do 
Zanden
Ypsilon

Also, Miyajima makes a SUT that would presumably be a perfect match with your cartridge.

Using that you would only need a MM phono stage or could use a MM phono input.

Your dealer may have the SUT in stock or a loaner if he caries the Miyajima cartridges

OP,

There are a few threads on this. As Raul points out it is very difficult to get very low noise in an all tube phono stage. Most phono stages use a SUT or FET for gain in front of the tube amplification. That being said, there is something about an all tube phono stage if your cartridge has enough output to stay above the noise floor.

Aesthetix Io and SPA Nova are all tube phono, and there are others. You should work with your dealer to audition some phono stages before making a selection

Shindo is the ne plus ultra of tube preamps! Ken Shindo has passed on but his son is carrying on the tradition!

@rauliruegas WOW man!!! Your post made me believe immediately. All made sense to me now.....now, let me ask you a direct question. FM Acoustic or Accuphase C-47 for phono considering the rest are Accuphase??. 

Sweet

Dear @uwiikz : This is my response to almost the same question that I posted in other thread and I can tell you that even at 100K there is no tube phonolinepreamp that can’t do it.

Cartridge needs can’t be fulfilled by any tube alternative, tubes was not for this very specific task.
Do it a favor and wait till you finish your today overall room/system new " adventure " and if after  you did it and tested in deep ( say: after 3-4 moths. ) still think in tubes then come back again , only an advise:



""" For me the functions of a phonolinepreamp first than all is that can achieve an accurated inverse RIAA eq with zero frequency deviation at each phono stage channels ( both channels should have evenly frequency about. ), other main target is to have active high gain to handle any output level cartridge ( LOMC or MM). As a fact phono stages exist because these two main targets/functions.

We need that high gain but we need it along very low noise. These 3 targets are the heart of any phonolinepreamp and the true challenges to any manufacturer because it’s really a hard task to achieve those targets at the same time ( even for SS electronics. ).

I like many phonolinepreamp in the market some of them already mentioned here: FM Acoustics, Gryphon, Spectral, CH, D’angostino, etc, etc.

Yes only SS because tubes in this specific function can’t do it and I owned from humble ( Jolida. ) to top design tubes electronics by around 10 years so I’m not speaking of my preferences but audio devices that its technology can in true be nearest to those targets..

This is only an opinion and I think is valid as any of your opinions.

I don’t like very much to talk about tubes in phono stages but I will put an example through Aesthetix IO ( I listened the first time at A.Porter house and latter on 3 more times in other systems. ) where they say the unit has active high gain with low noise and yes it has 80db of gain that’s a tribute for an all tube design but unfortunatelly failed on noise level that was measured a poor A-weigthed 57db and where the RIAA eq. deviation has ( by manufacturer spec. ) a high 0.5db swing deviation.
That frequency response goes even worst because it depends of the control volumen that at different volume position different frequency response.

RIAA eq. frequency deviation levels is critical because in theory must be to mimic in inverse way the recording RIAA eq. to we can have a flat frequency response.
Not an easy task even for SS designs because that eq. is not a " delicated/tiny " one but goes from around -20db to +20db, this is a huge equalization with several problems not only about frequency response but phase and other issues.

Look, graphic equalizers in the audio market as Accuphase, Soundcraftsmen, Crown, Klark-Teknic, etc, etc. ( I owned all and other ones been parametrics. ) in the best case its control levels by octave or 1/3 octaves can give you a range between: -15db to +15db and the RIAA demands -,+ 20dbs ! ! """



Here an all, 35K+ dollars, tube design by Lamm and you can see that is not really accurated on the RIAA inverse eq.:

https://lammindustries.com/pages/phono-stage-lp1/

but the Aesthetix I/O is over 16K dollars and can’t do it.

So, it does not matters an all tube can’t mate those 3 phonolinepreamp targets. Today the best you can do is to go with SS.
Today SS electronics are really good designs and way different to the 20-30 years ago designs. """

Tubes in phono job never can gives you the rigth bass range with high quality levels even the high frequencies are really deficient in this specific task that's the handled of a cartridge signal a very low level signal. 

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.