Hi guys, today's technology has brought us a new type of tweeter made of diamond or beryllium. Do you know what are the strengths and weaknesses of diamond vs beryllium? Which one is the more expensive? Has today's dome tweeter better resolving power than the venerable electrostat? Jim Thiel once said that dynamic designs will be getting better all the time and will probably surpass electrostatic designs.
@mijostyn Like I said, you are a geniuses, rewriting the book on loudspeaker design. Please share the bliss with us and show us your speakers, and of course measurements of your “child's play” results. I am sure you know how a
phase cohere step response looks like, right?
That is odd kosst. I did not think I offered an explanation of break up. I only mention some factors that might or might not contribute to it. You obviously like Science cop do not understand it either or how to or how not to apply crossovers or how to chose drivers to accomplish a specific goal based on their static specs. I suggest you and science cop get yourselves a bunch of drivers, capacitors, chokes, test equipment and soldering irons so you can start having fun playing around. If you are stuck for money I can loan you mine:)
Mijy, Waiting for some pictures... And since you admitted you have “test equipment״ should be no problem showing test results (although according to you tests continued signals are worthless, so what exactly are you testing?)
Until then, you are added to the “ignore these wannabes” list.
Sound better, or sound more accurate? The latter is whatever is lightest and stiffest, i.e. diamonds. I have beryllium. It is fine. I listen to good music, not to equipment.
This does nothing to settle anything on the issue of course, but as a matter of pure anecdote:
I recently auditioned the Paradigm F3 with it's beryllium drivers against the B&W 803D3 (diamond tweeter) in the same room on the same equipment.
For me the high end frequencies of the B&W were much nicer, a more beautiful sense of harmonic richness, distinction and clarity to cymbals and other high frequency elements. The Paradigm sounded somewhat opaque in comparison.
I was surprised as I've never been a big fan of the B&W speakers.
The 7F and especially 9H sounded super crystal clear and transparent to me. Both with moon gear. They were only out done in detail, imaging and clarity by the Magico M2 and Tidal Contriva G2. These speakers costs far more.
Koost, I remember reading about that amplifier and the review wasn't good, basically Stereophile said the amplifier was super lean, and clean, fast and articulate, the reviewer tried lots of things changing cables, adding a tube preamp to enrich the sound of this amplifier but his conclusions weren't exactly a rave, and if the amplifier was a clean and lean sounding amplifier than the sound with the Personas should have been awful.
The Persona's are a very low coloration loudspeaker that does tend to emphasis the top end, the speakers are very exciting to listen to, therefore you need to pair the speakers with a wamer combination of components to add a bit of tone color back in.
Hence we use Krell Class A designs, or T+A voiced to emulate tubes with the Personas and get fabulous results.
Here is the summation on the SAE amp:
Conclusions
The SAE 2HP-D is a super-powerful, ultra-low-distortion, low-noise, high-tech power amplifier. It produced tightly controlled bass; fast, clean, delicate, precise transients; dynamic punch to spare; and delivered bountiful musical thrills.
Others will find it on the lean, analytical, perhaps over-speedy side, with less than generously expressed harmonics.
Making the 2HP-D sing required carefully matched components,
Though the 2HP-D's midrange and overall sustain were a bit stingy, again, the right partnering gear (in my case, ARC's Reference 6 preamp and Audio Tekne's TEA-8695 phono preamp) will give some listeners everything they might want.
However, the SAE 2HP-D is clearly not an amp for those who prefer a soft, warm sound.
The other thing is it seems you are baseing your experience on this one demo, rather than a composite of hearing the speakers at different locations and on different gear.
We have heard a lot of Magico at shows and at dealers and most of the models sound the same, we heard the A3 at the New York audio show with AVM and Nordost and the sound was very different from past Magicos which tend to sound a bit smooth but not totally engaging, here the A3 were bright, and overly punchy a very different sound.
So do we now base our opinions on the A3 from just the show demo or do we keep on attempting to hear them under different circumstances before passing judgement on how they sound.
Also Kost it comes down to what you find musical? If you are a Vandersteen Harbeth kind of guy, who loves soft dome tweeters or a recessed treble it is unlikely you will find the Personas to your tastes.
It tooks us a while of tunning before we came up with magic for the Personas they are not a drop and plop loudspeaker they are very finiky beasts but when you get them right you get a sound which is in the league of $60k-120k loudspeakers for $25-35k a pair.
I did a long audition of the Persona’s in which I was able to achieve a good set up of the speakers a year ago. I thought they sounded pretty good, but they wore me out.
This second audition, I again didn’t just allow for how the dealer set them up. I listened to them in various configurations, from the classic equilateral triangle, to moving them around to other positions (I prefer a wider spread so we did that, we got them off the walls, I got a good seating position much like I use at home with many different speakers). They just didn’t do anything for me. Just sounded sort of grayish in timbre, and with a top end that wore on me over time. (And I’ve heard many speakers with extended top ends that don’t wear on me like that).
If I’d only heard the Performas by themselves this recent time it’s possible I might not be so hard on them, but compared to the B&Ws, which were showing me more spatial and timbral information of all the instruments and voices in the mix...remember using exactly the same gear driving them ( the latest Bryston amps)...the Performas were a complete disappointment.
I know...I know...it was the "amplifier" or "cables"......
First audition - can't remember. Second audition, as I already said: Bryston amplification.
I'm not going to talk cabling with you as we don't agree on that stuff.They were thick cables...hope that helps ;-)
Agreed that system matching and set up can make a difference. But I have been auditioning speakers for many years and I have a good idea of how to get a picture of a speaker's character. Though I favor my tube amps, I always prefer to hear a speaker during audition powered by SS amps if possible as a more neutral starting point (never know how off-neutral a particular tube amp will be, where the variation among SS amps is much smaller).
Every speaker I've ever found to sound excellent sounded that way on different gear - yes, some variation among gear but the essential character of a speaker remains. If a speaker "needs" warmer gear, special attention to cables, warmer source and all that, then it needs fixing from external gear. That's already a warning sign IMO.
Anyway, I heard what I heard in two auditions (and I've actually heard the Performas in another location too), and no longer have interest in those speakers.
I'm sure you like them, so do some other people, and you have speakers to sell, but I'm not buyin' :)
Prof boy do we have some disagreements with you and there is a reason why you are coming up with what you are comming up with.
First: If you like tube amplifiers your audition on a speaker should be on a tube amplifier, demoing on a solid state amplifier is going to give you a totally diffeent feel.
Second: Your comment that solid state amplifers tend to sound similar is one of the most ludicrious statements ever.
When we were setting up our KEF Blades we had at the time four different solid state amplifiers that we could demo with them, a set of Parasound JC 1, a set of Electrcompaniet AW 400, a set of Chord SPM 650 Monoblocks, and a set of Chord SPM 1400.
So in order of price $10k Parasound, $12k Electro, $14k Chord, $32k Chord Reference amplifiers.
Just changing from one set of amplifiers to another and then to another you could hear the speakers open up dramatically. The Parasounds made the speakers sound slow, and closed in. The Electros were faster and cleaner and the speakers presentation livened up, the Chord monoblocks sounded even better with greater dynamics, cleaner overall the speakers sounded faster, and the Chord Reference all of a sudden the Blades sounded like live music with much greater dynamic range, far tighter bass, more detail a huge floating image.
So if you heard the first set of amplifiers your experience with the Blades would have been nice speaker but eh I don’t see the fuss, vs the Chord Reference amplifiers where your jaw would be on the floor.
If you listen to a Naim they sound distinctly different than most solid state, with a more rhythmic quality and a warm slightly recessed top end.
The Personas on Naim sound magical as the speakers are a bit forward and the Naim is punchy and a bit recessed.
Compare that sound with say an Ayre, or a Bryston, which are cleaner amplifers with. less coloration than the Naim but a far more neutral less involving sound do you think that combination will sound good or bad?
Amplifiers fall into brighter faster cleaner, and warmer, richer sounding presentations.
The new Krell XD amplifiers for example have a distinctly creamy presentation.
So Profi we differ cables make a very audible difference and must be matched with the electronics and sources so must the electronics.
A great set of speakers with the wrong electronics will not equil a great sounding system this usually leads to boy I don’t know what that reviewer liked in those speakers kind of comment.
Another point is there is no good sounding speaker that sounds good all the time, your good sounding speaker if that is the case will suffer appropriatly on the wrong electronics or the system has no resolution.
If a speaker has no resolution it will sound "good" which in reality is mediocre all the time. A good recording will sound good on a good system and a bad recording will sound poor on a good system.
If your system sounds good all the time on all recordings no matter what you don’t have an accurate system.
Prof for the record can you list your entire system including cables?
You aren’t talking to some newbie who just walked in to your store who needs your education and salesman's wisdom. I’ve been in the hobby for much of my life, heard a gazillion systems, done some reviewing myself, listened to plenty of systems at reviewers places as they went through equipment, as well as audiophile pals, (I still have pals who review so I’m constantly listening to all the gear as we change things) and have gone through tons of experimenting and equipment of my own. So I have my own experience to go on, thank you very much.
From having owned and used many different amps, including SS, I know the general characteristics of my CJ tube amps vs most SS amps, and I know in which way the character of a speaker will be nudged when it goes from an SS amp to my own amps. I’ve learned to get quite a good read of speakers on unfamiliar amps, especially SS amps...and I often hear a speaker on a VARIETY of amps (sometimes tube and SS), and the essential character I can recognize is CONSISTENT. (Unless we are talking about very inaccurate amps or horribly matched amps that can’t drive a speaker).
I’ve lost count of the number of times I have identified why I don’t care for a speaker, while the dealer said "Oh, that’s because they are being powered by THIS amp, or DAC, or cable, let me switch to this one..." only to hear the same essential character remain.
I know you think differently, but you are barking up the wrong tree trying to tell me all the things I’ve heard a billion times from dealers and other audiophiles.
Again...it’s not that I don’t think amps can’t make a difference. I own CJ tube amps after all! Rather, especially with SS amps, they tend not to make a sonic difference of a magnitude that completely changes my opinion of a speaker. It’s certainly possible I have not heard the Persona’s at their best and would alter my opinion slightly of them.But my experience hearing speakers in many different systems shows my I’m VERY unlikely to like a speaker where I did not like it elsewhere.In fact that has not happened once, ever, whereas speakers I have liked in unfamiliar systems I continue to like in other situations, including if I bring them home.
So I have from you the same salesman’s pitch I’ve heard many times, vs my own long time experience
Not much further we can go on this.
And I’ve listed my gear numerous times on the forum. Don’t care to again in this thread. (I’ve told you before I use mostly Belden cabling.Though sometimes I have audioquest, other brands, even Nordost in my system, when friends give or lend me cast-offs and I happen to need a cable. Sorry...no major revelations from cabling).
Prof, 100+++ Speakers are the weakest link by far and will be responsible for the overall sound of a system regardless of anything accept the worst components up stream. If a cable changes the sound of a system it is a bad cable. Good ones have no sound of their own. I use Canare wire. Prof uses Beldon. Both perfectly fine. Cable length is perhaps the most important factor and when you make your own you can size them perfectly. It sickens me that so many of us fall for the idiotic marketing of manufacturers who have only one goal in mind and that is to make money. Nothing else. While I am at it, audiophiles use to build stuff. From amps to cables to speakers. It seems the modern audiophile is just a consumer of products for the sole purpose of satisfying their ego. They have no idea how to handle a soldering iron let alone design a speaker. I have been ostracized for using drivers in a clever way because a few people think they know what is going on by reading static specs. Unbelievable. Instead of being quizzical and asking me why I designed a speaker in such a way they immediately shot me up because I did not coincide with their unexperienced and faulty version of reality. In doing so they lose the opportunity to learn something and perpetuate their own mythology. How dysfunctional can you get. Older guys like Prof and myself have been through the ringer and made many mistakes in the endeavor to find the sound that we want. It is called experience, the best teacher of all. Next some idiot is going to post an extremely negative review of this post and he is exactly that individual that I am talking about.
Kosst it has nothing to do with load, it has to do with creating a system where the parts are balanced and work together.
The Persona series has excellent dynamic capabilities. Are they as dynamic as a horn no they are not but with a suitable amp they have plenty of drive.
We have heard 70 watt tube amplifiers with great drive, as well as 300 watt stereo amplifiers. So it sounds like the system you heard the Personas in wasn't' balanced to work in that room.
Prof there will always be a house sound with a product, however, you can change some of the characteristics of that product depending on cables, electronics and sources. If the dealer changed the dac and the sound didn't change that means that the dac swapped isn't a different sounding dac then the original dac or that something in the system was masking these differences. We can totally change the sound of a system just by changing a dac.
Our dacs are tube based or solid state based on the product we are demoing and they really do sound different Dave and TroyAudio Doctor
Again, audiotroy, you are writing as if I would never have experienced swapping between CD players, servers, DACs etc.
Aside from having done plenty of my own CDP/DAC swapping tests (including blind testing!), I’ve experienced countless different DACs in other set ups. As I’ve said, the voice of speakers has remained constant as I’ve heard them in various systems, which inevitably means with different DACs (and amps etc).
I’m familiar with everything you could say on this subject, and as it happens I’ve come to my own opinions.
It’s nice to see your enthusiasm for the hobby, even though we differ on some things.
Your quote:
while the dealer said "Oh, that’s because they are being powered by THIS amp, or DAC, or cable, let me switch to this one..." only to hear the same essential character remain.
If a dealer can't change the sound of his loudspeakers by chainging electronics or digital that doesn't speak well for the dealer.
We can dramatically change the sound of a speaker by just changing a dac, if you have a brighter cleaner speaker, use a tube or warm based dac, the Light Hamonic Davinci running DSD, the T+A digital, the Aqua Hifi.
You want to bring out more detail in a wamer sounding speaker go to Mytek or the T+A Dac 8,
You want wam and punchy use Naim.
This dealer that you heard the Personas might not have what we would call the right equipment, Bryston amplifiers are too clean to be a good match same with Ayre and a few others, you need a wamer tubier sounding solid state brand, T+A or Naim are really magical with the Personas. The new Krell gear also sounds great, the Anthem separates are good, the integrated is not good enough, the Micromega M100/M150 are great.
This is where we differ Prof, we tune a system by chainging, cables, power conditioners, digital etc, till the system sounds really good.
The Personas are super revealing but if you tune them right the speakers perform against extremely expensive speakers.
In our demo room we had the Polymer Audio Research a $68k speaker with Acution Diamond Midrange and Tweeter in a 300 lb all metal enclosure,
We also had demoed a pair of Kharma Exsquite Classiques at $120k set of speakers all on the T+A electronics, top of the line digital cabling ect.
In both examples these uber speakers were not sounding better just different we sold off the Polymers which were very impressive but not twice as good, and sent back the Kharmas as thanks but not worth $120k.
Prof you should take a road trip to hear what a set of well setup Persona can actually sound like.
We are not saying you will magically fall in love with them, they still might be too clear for you, but we think you would come away suitablly impressed that they are really quite extraordinary loudspeakers and are a bargain for the price.
Again, you are repeating the same stuff I’ve already said I disagree with.Repeating it again doesn’t help.
If you are drastically changing the sound of speakers via a DAC, you are using poorly designed DACs. (A lot of those going around in high-end, yet charging more for them).
If you need to drastically change the sound in order for a speaker to sing, then it says something negative about the speaker.
I know you are in in the "everything makes a difference" camp, which is one reason why I would not rely on you for audio advice (sorry to be blunt).
And I never said the Personas were "too clear" for me. In fact as I said, they sounded less clear than the B&Ws. Mostly, I just don’t care for the overall timbral quality of that speaker. And as you know I’m hardly the first to find the high frequencies of the Persona fatiguing. I’ve seen many mentions. And it’s not surprising given you can see the "smiley face" top end rise in measurements made of the speaker.
I’m not saying they are bad speakers at all. They are quite accomplished speakers and have very competitive technology for their price.
Look we all know you tout the Persona’s are the best thing since sliced bread and you’ll defend them to the death. Any of us audiophiles can get annoying about a product we are infatuated with, but hearing it over and over from a salesman with a vested interest in selling them can be even more tiresome.
Kost you really dont understand any of this do you7
Almost any competant amplifier can drive any loudspeaker that doesnt mean that the resulting match would sound good.
A 660 hp Ferrari engine can push any car right? What if we dropped this engine in a Toyota Camry do you think this abomination would perform like a Ferrari?
Amplifiers cables sources all sound dlfferent just because you heard them at a dealer or that the dealer sells expensive stuff doest mean that dealer can create great sound.
Many dealers will give up if a product doesnt sound good to them instantly or is not selling for them, it takes time to figure out a product your dealer may not be willing to or doesnt have the desire to find matching gear.
Tell you a story we were invited to hear a pair of 9H when they were first being shown to dealers.
Thc shop tbat had the speakers was a one room, mid fi shop their best electronics a 3k Musical Fidelity amp inexpensive cables and a Blu Sound Node.
Know what we didnt like the sound elthe but we dld find that the speakers were doing some things well.
When we got our samples and found the right combination of electronics and matching components did we make maglc.
Kost your Lotus point completely misses the point, a performance based product will only sound as good as what you use with it and how it is setup. It is that simple.
Please answer the question:
A 660 hp Ferrari engine can push any car right? What if we dropped this engine in a Toyota Camry do you think this abomination would perform like a Ferrari?
Would the Ferrari engined Toyota Camry handle like, brake like, have the drive feel of the Ferrari?
The answer is of course No, a Ferrari performs like a Ferrari because the engine, drive train, brakes, and handling components are matched together working together in unison.
Take any part away and substitute any lesser part and watch the performance fall apart.
Lets make an audio analogy, $150,000.00 pair of speakers being driven by a $300 Yamaha receiver on zip cord,playing over Blu Tooth, do you think the $150,000.00 pair of speakers is going to sound good or horrific?
We suppose you think that electronics don't impact the sound of a system, and cables are bunk and the only thing that matters is the speaker correct?
Sure only the speakers matter lets listen to the above listed $150,000.00 speakers on the Receiver playing Blu tooth, and lets talk.
Kost, it is not the point, if you can’t understand that a Ferrari engine transplanted into a family sedan won’t make a family sedan into a race car.
A race car is a race car, the same way that a Ferrari makes a poor cross country vehicle for conveying a family.
A high performance loudspeaker is not going to sound good on really cheapie electronics, as the really cheapie electronics are adding distortions to the speakers as well as not really being able to control the loudseakers.
The SAE amplifier that you mentioned if it is the new SAE amplifier was lambasted by Stereophile for sounding too bright.
We are not making any false arguement please go to a good shop or one that you might have a friend in, and ask them to hook up your amplifier with your cables and sources and listen to the speakers before and after and you will see that electronics absolutely make or break a system.
Rbach, we all have different opinions, what is interesting is that you are more interested in harassing us, then adding anything to a discussion.
We are also willing to bet we test a lot more equipment than you do.
Sorry for having an opinion, if you read the initial posts we said that that gentlemans system would probably sound good if he was using a tube preamp and a warm dac guess what he was.
The defination of a class act is not having a releavant opinion and just harassing people who do.
How do you explain why an amplifier sounds bright, Stereophile couldn’t and or why an amplifier sounds dull?
If you look at published frequency response graphs of almost any modern amplifier they are flat from 20hz-20khz.
And yes Kost, unlike you we have had these loudspeakers in our store, we lived with them and found out what their intrinsic characteristics were and or are.
Kost you don’t need an engineering degree or an electrical degree to understand what sounds good and what doesn’t.
We talked about cars before, if a Ferrari is driving at 60 and a Pinto is driving at 60 the spec is the same, does that mean the cars drive the same?
On the same token if I take a Ferrari put 82 octane gass and deflat the tires at different pressures accross the board does it drive like the manufacturer intended? According to spec or not to spec?
We live in a world where certain things must be experienced and their is not enough measurement criteria to determine why something sounds good.
You are looking for empiracal data when there is none, that can prove that one amplifier sounds right on a particular set of speakers but people with ears know it when they hear it.
Last point Kost why do so many people like records over digital, digital has no noise much greater dynamic range, doesn’t degrade, has perfect frequency response.
Or tubes?
A tube amplifier has poor damping, is noisy, wears out, has much greater noise floor, yet why do so many people prefer the sound of at tube amplifier?
Thank you for the countless hours you spend in the forum educating us. Don't know how you find the time, but we very much appreciate your constant posting.
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