Bel Canto Dac 3.7 in 2018?

@goldprintaudio , thanks Taylor.

@bunkertoy Feel free to reach out if you ever have any questions.  Would love to chat. 

Taylor

@goldprintaudio Awesome, you already know half my system. Finding shops that carry great brands is declining. I miss the wealth of information from dealers such as yourself.

I would tell you about my gear and you would already have an understanding of my system. We all love to talk about our gear journeys. Dealers are the first ones to listen.

Most of us have been regulated to internet reviews and online audiophiles. 

Cheers brother.

 

 

@bunkertoy  Yes, I'm a Revival dealer.  Love both the Atalantes and the Sprints!

@goldprintaudio 

Ya Matt was incredible... 5 stars.

Not many people know about the Revival Audio Atalante speakers.I noticed you are a dealer do you sell them ? is that how you heard them ?

I'm a bit floored as they sound incredible and didn't break the bank. Replaced my Totem Signature One(30th anniversary).

Nice system!  I had the DAC3 on demo in my system, which was very good BTW, and then got to hear the VBS version that took the DAC to another level of performance entirely, which frankly shocked me.  Sounds like you’re experiencing the same type thing albeit at a higher level.  Congrats!

Congrats on your 3.7 Ref upgrade!   Matt at Ace Tomato is great.....he does some nice upgrades.

And great speakers!  Love the Atalante3.  

Hi All, I know this is an old thread, but wanted to reach out to fellow Bel Canto 3.7 owners.

I was wondering if my 3.7 was getting old and behind the curve.

I reached out to Bel Canto about upgrading my Power supply from VBS to VBL.

They got me in touch with Matt Cramer of Ace Audio Tomato Audio. I believe he was an engineer with Bel Canto. After chatting on the phone with him, I sent my DAC from Toronto to Minny for some upgrades. I chose the "Reference" upgrade apposed to the "Statement " upgrade. There were many more upgrades Kimber wiring etc..., but I had to stick to my budget.

I’ve had the DAC back for about 3 weeks and I’m extremely happy with the results.

I didn’t have enough $$ for the ref umbilical cord, which I hear is also as nice upgrade.

Just wanted to share this recent upgrade with other Bel Canto owners. Not many owners here in Canada. Maybe others can chime in, if they have had upgrades etc... Always great to hear other thoughts about people’s impressions of the Bel Canto DACs

Thks

My System:

Bryston 3B Cubed, VTL 2.5,Bel Canto 3.7, Revival Atalante 3, Transporter

@cnb3

Hello,

Apologies for the late response. My system has changed a lot since this post.

Congrats with the 3.7. 
Feel free to message me. I’d be rambling way too long on this thread to explain all that you are questioning / potentially need. 

Thanks Taylor!  Yes, it has both optical and coax S/PDIF.  Is there any reason to think there’d be any difference between using optical S/PDIF output, coax S/PDIF output or (I guess with a convertor) USB output?  Put slightly differently I guess, what is the point of the RefLink/ULink/MLink other than, I suppose, to address a sich where only output option from device to 3.7 is USB?  

@cnb3   I don't really know much about the Innous options, but a quick look appears to show it has coax and toslink out, so you should be able to use those.  If you want to use USB out, you will want a RefLink/ULink/MLink.

Taylor
www.goldprintaudio.com

@goldprintaudio 

Thanks for the input - appreciated.  I did buy the 3.7 with VBL - it’s in route! 

As a dealer, do you happen to know if the Innous Zen Mini MK3 will connect well to the 3.7, or if I will need a Ref Link or mLink - neither of which Bel Canto appears to still make?  The Zen Mini MK3 seems very well thought of and just perfectly fits my remaining needs all in one fell swoop - streamer, CD player (and ripper), and music storage.  (And size-wise almost perfectly matches Bel Canto.)

@cnb3 

I'm a Bel Canto dealer, so I can perhaps help a bit here.  If you can get a good deal on the 3.7, I think you will for sure like the differences b/t it and your current 1.7.  The 1.7 is a nice little dac, but the 3.7 really does take it up a few notches (and is a great match with your amps).

Hey jred - I’m currently contemplating what I think you did (going from the 1.7 to the 3.7 with VBL), in the hope that change will make a significant sonic difference.  If I’m understanding your transition correctly, can you speak to the resulting difference?  For what it’s worth, also running ref600m monoblocks,

Apologies for the delay. 

I had the 1.7 - came across an offer for a nos 3.7 for a great price. If I missed the 3.7 deal. I would have purchased a Dialogue Premium pre amp, en route with the 1.7 ... Bridge the Ma6500 as main source of amplification. 

Since last post I obtained a pair of special 40s with Twl speaker cables, and a Twl discrete audio usb cable. Prior was a Audio Quest Carbon. 

I sold the 1.7 and some other gear. Though definitely held on to the Aci’s

The Ref500s should be showing up this week with a 30 day trial period. The plan is to utilize the ref link to the 3.7 via St fiber. Jumped to the MA- 6500 making that the pre amp, bridging the ref 500s. I agree that a tube line stage would be the best bet. Though finances only go so far. 

I already had my eye on the Don Sachs SP14, and the LTA microzotl preamp. Good call!! 

Both Preamps look like great contenders. Though it seems like you get the best bang for the buck with The SP14 specd with all upgrades. The works. 

LTA is beyond a safe bet. Just as good or perhaps better than Sachs. I’m assuming the LTA will have different sonic characteristics. 

Imo I believe with this selection of gear. I’ll be more then content. 

Thanks all for chiming in. Very much appreciated. 

Sincerely,

J

I'm confused.  Do you have the DAC1.7 or 3.7?  You state in your equipment list that you have the 1.7, but in a later post you say you have the 3.7.  C'mon man.  Let's get this straight here!  If you have the 3.7 I'd absolutely look to upgrade to separate amp and preamp as the biggest absolute improvement overall to your system.  If you have the 1.7, that's a tougher call. 

BTW, great speakers -- modern-day classics IMHO -- and great choice in TWL power cords.  The maker went to Clarkson College -- our arch rival in division 1 hockey at St. Lawrence 10 miles down the road -- so I should by all rights hate him, but have to totally respect his work in power cords.  

If you have the 3.7, I'd absolutely look to separate amp and preamp as the bigger absolute benefit to your system.  Specifically, I'd ditch the PrimaLuna idea and contact Don Sachs about him building one of his SP14 preamps for you.  And while you're at it, talk to him about his new KT88 tube amp that may actually be able to drive your awesome Sapphires.  If he says yes, JUST DO THAT and be done with it!!!

But, here are some other options I'd consider for preamps.  I think @teajay here did a fantastic review of the new Linear Tube Audio preamp that seems more than compelling.  Also, Ralph's Atmasphere SP3 preamp is a relatively unheralded and outstanding preamp in its own right.  These three are at the top of my own personal list, so thought I'd throw them all out therefor your review.  Read the reviews.  They're all awesome and will likely kill your current integrated. 

Now to the amp.  You seem to want power, and I don't know the sensitivity or impedance characteristics of your speakers, but being monitors I have to assume they need some power.  I've had very limited experience with "digital" amps.  However, I heard Joseph Audio Pulsars driven by Bel Canto REF500s that sounded absolutely fantastic, so I'd certainly look there.  But, if you would also entertain a more traditional Class A/B amp, I'd take a serious look at this ridiculous value.  I own a McCormack DNA 0.5 with Steve's A Revisions and it's outstanding.  I think what you'll gain over your McIntosh is an expansion of soundstage depth and detail that will help your Sapphires sing at a new level. 

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649511615-mccormack-dna125-with-mods-by-bob-backert-of-rhb/

Hope this helps, and please keep us posted in whatever you decide and how it works out. 

I bought the Belcanto 2.7  itstechnologies are a bit ahead of all past dacs  they made their output stages x2 are very low noise and in class A output stsge
and no more pico second time clocks they use Duel high-precision Femto 
clocks 70 Femto seconds accuracy cs the still norm pico seconds .
this unit is only a hair behind the Belcanto 3.7 with virtual battery 
124 db dynamic range , ,the 3.7 126 db , and measured almost spot on in testing 
that says a lot TheSchiit Yaggs has a lot of good press .Bel, canto donot do 1/2 as many reviews ,youjusthave to gets trial   but in my System I tried both 
and theYaggs had a bit more leading edge , but theBelcanto had more prat 
more-involving. This too can just be my amp preamp was a better mstch .
ifyou look at Bel canto website , they have almost 30 years in audio including digital . John Strozner saysthere are 4-5 key critical elements thst have to be
right for everything else to fall into place . One thing to mention here.
high quality Fuse for sure do count ,we did several blind tests after 100hr+ runin.
several blind tests with 4 or more people .look at the metals resistance index online . Steel fuse a 15, Copper,Silver 65 +higher number better the conductor
Everything  run-through the fuse. I use the Hifi tuning  Black -Supreme Gold over Silver ,ceramic body in digital it is very detailed and nuetral. .synergistic blue in amps ,preamp ifyou want a bit more body .  Vs steel fuse a clearer performance ,better-stereo seperation, and for sure better low level micro details..
the companies don’t want you in thecade but as a Audiophile I am compelled !!
   

Yeah, @audioman58 has some really good points. Just to reiterate, I had the BC DAC3 and DAC3VB in my system for a long demo. The VBS1 is an absolute necessity if you’re getting a BC DAC -- IMHO. I’ve heard them both back to back in my system, and there is no comparison. I got to speak directly with John Stronczer about this, and he related that while in Paris he heard a battery-powered system that had sound qualities he wanted to bring to his products. IMO, he succeeded.

But, and this is a big but, I am very intrigued by the latest R2R NOS DACs on the market today. I’ll be very specific -- as good as the BC DAC3 VB was in my system, given what you’ve stated as your system preferences, I’d try a SW1X DAC. They offer a trial period, which, to me, is HUGE. Caution alert -- they do use tubes. But as it’s a DAC, they won’t need to be replaced very often. The reviews from owners are unanimously positive, and they seem to have great customer service. Unlike, unfortunately, Mytek.  Another DAC to explore would be the Metrum Pavane level 3 DAC.  If it's me, I go with the SW1X beacause the reviews are outstanding and he has the guts and confidence to offer a trial period.  

All that said, I highly doubt you'd be disappointed in the least by a BC DAC3 VB much less a 3.7 VB.  But again, I would encourage you to explore the SW1X given your sonic preferences.  Hope this helps, and best of luck in your search. 

Bel canto has a player and 2.7 combo coming out later in the year for $3500 I have heard the 3.7 with power supply vs the 2.7  veryvery close sonicly bot 70 Femto seconds accuracy clocks whichthst is better then the majority out there ad the 2.7 has class 
A output sections ,dual verylow nose power supplies 124db 
the 3.7 126 db a hair differences , if you could wait till the fall 
thestreamer 2.7 combo is going to be a hot ticket thstcould 
do a lot and if spots fit,or Qbuz  get bigger in radio that too will 
be soft ware added. I thought the Schitt Yaggs 2 would be for sure better , nope not in my system it may have a bit better leading edge detail , micro dynamics are close layering of depth,prat 
in my system and match with my Gato amp the elcsnto is more analog like. In this hobby nothing is set in stone . Everyone linked 
a different flavor.

I’ve had the 3.7 for about a year now. I obtained it for 3,000. New in box. From what I gather it has performed well.

I don’t see myself selling the 3.7 anytime soon. Though I do see a tube pre amp, and a class D amp in the near future.

Interesting about the revised 2.7 - Dual Femto clocks. Nice upgrade. Though considering what I paid for the 3.7 new. Cost of a new 2.7. It pretty much averages out imo.

J

The 3.7 with the linear external power supply is perhaps a bit more refined then the 2.7 but not by much  . And $1,000s more money.

The Newer 2.7 Belcanto dac is better then the both the 3.5 and 3.7 
Dual Femto clocks , and very good power supplies, the clocks alone 
give this dac much better resolution and 124db dynamic range 
Very low noise floor.  Check it out makes sure it has a few  hundred hours on it 
and takes a long time to warm up at least 24 hours to sound at its best.
even out of stand by.

Upgrading to 3.7 from 3.5 was certainly worth it to me!  A bit more detail... a bit more clear... all good.  If you consider the investment you already have in the 3.5 it is worth the 500.

On another note... anyone compare the VBS to the VBL power supply?

Just curious if anybody has upgraded their older DAC 3.5VB to the 3.7VB?  Bel Canto no longer even lists the 3.7VB on their website, but still offers upgrades for older 3.5's (for $500).  Does the sonic improvement (if any) justify the expense?

I still have a Bel Canto 3.7 and it sounds great. 

Wondering about the difference between VBL and VBS1?

@soix 

Thanks so much with all of the information you have provided. The Dac you mentioned seems like a great deal, and the fidelity probably surpasses the 3.7 in every aspect. 

Ironically after I placed my order for the 3.7 I checked my email, and noticed your post. Which was most appreciated, considering the fact  no one here gets paid for being a audio consultant. Ha! 

The fact that bel canto is made in the states and applies a very minimal audio approach appeals greatly to me. External design is not high on my list. That plastic wheel though. Come on now.  Ohms law. Minimal meaning they do not go over board throwing all into one box. i do understand the appeal of why some consumers would prefer a all in one unit. 

I like the the fact I can choose my own external phono pre amp, etc or simply use it as a analog input pertaining to the 3.7

I value the philosophy of upgrades for a unit as technology improves. Though at the same time I try to keep my components as simple as possible. Schiit is the perfect example. 

Additionally a unit that is priced originally at 18,000.00 would probably not match well with my monitors, and current amp.  I’m guessing a amp around 5000 tops will work well with the 3.7. Perhaps I’m wrong with that assumption. Prima luna looks pretty sweet though it’s not manufactured in the states, which I’m honestly still battling with. Rogue Medusa looks promising as well. 

6 moons wrote up my Saaphire Xl’s providing a respectable honest review. That was not my determining factor of purchase. It was the philosophy of ACI that sealed the deal. Mike Dzurko is a awesome guy. It’s too bad his company no longer exist. 

His business philosophy, and persona were amazingly similar to Pete at Triode Wired Labs. To whom I cannot praise enough. 

It appears  I’m currently working on a modest system which I really appreciate, and value. I enjoy the slow process of upgrades. Though I did take a giant leap with TWL. 

When I’m ready to take that extra step. I might very well look into some companies you have mentioned in this post. 

I would like your honest opinion for one particular item.

Which power conditioners suit your preference. Blue circle is a blast for the price, though I’m eventually going to have to upgrade to 4 receptacles. I like what Chang lightspeed has to offer as well. 

In looking over various options given your situation I happened upon something that, if I were you, I'd seriously consider.  I know you're looking to do this slowly, but sometimes opportunity comes a knockin'.  Right now there are a couple Devialet D-Premier integrateds available in and around your price range.  This would give you a new integrated amp and DAC all in one, and all at reference-level performance capabilities.  Read the unanimously glowing reviews.  $18,500 unit you can get for about 5 grand, and it's upgradeable.  Jeff Fritz of Soundstage used a lower-powered Devialet model to drive his $185,000 Magico Q7s and found it to be the best he's ever heard in his room -- better than megabuck Boulder, Gryphon, Vitus, etc. amps.  Hard to see you being anything but floored by the performance level on offer here.  Best of luck. 

all good info ...
- Jred, this is not hyperbole, but when I went from the 2.5 DAC to the 3.7, I went up 2-3 stages of improvements: From the 2.5 to the 3.5 to the 3.7. Like I said, Everything sounded better. After having the 2.5 DAC for 4 years, I thought I had a great DAC until I listened to the 3.7 DAC. :)
- since you are looking at the 3.7 for $3000 with a 30 day trial, I would encourage you to try it. If you are not impressed (tho I doubt it) you can return for a refund.

- the External PSU for the 3.7 is a hybrid power source: both Solid State and Class D- so no worries about all Class D "dryness". In fact, this is one of the main upgrades from the 3.5 to the 3.7 was to modify the power source, adding SS, and getting a boost not only in overall performance, but especially in the PreAmp section, which I felt was lacking with the 2.5 (which for illustrative purposes is probably about on par with your 1.7 DAC).

-and since you have the 1.7 and reflink, you would also be moving up another 3 stages. THIS IS THE BEST PART, b/c the original audio signal coming from your DAC needs to be as clean and resolving as possible as it goes through your PreAmp, amp, etc. E.g, if you replace your amp, you would still have an inferior DAC signal from the 1.7 compared to the 3.7.

Remember, the audio signal resolution only DEGRADES as it goes through your system, it does NOT get cleaner or more resolving. It may change the signal from the audio flavor of the PreAmp, cables, etc, but it will NOT get better.
- the best thing an audio person can do is keep a balanced high quality audio signal as it goes through their entire system. that is why experienced audio folks tend to spend about 30% on the DAC/source, 30% on Pre/Amp, and %30 on speakers. the problem is that a lot of folks spend too much on Amps and speakers, and neglect how important the original audio signal is (DAC/source). when I heard this years ago, I balked at it. but now, I see its wisdom ....

the TWL’s sound good, may check them out in th future.
I’m running mostly Nordost Blue heaven and Red Dawn with PCs and ICs. I use them as I A/B equipment, so as to keep some consistency from one test to another.
- I used the Red Dawn into the BC Ref500s with the BC 2.5 DAC into the Dynaudio’s. There was just a bit too much on the high end, started to bug my ears. After I replaced the 2.5 with the 3.7 DAC and used a PS Audio PC10 PC, that mild sibilance went away.
- I have the PrimaLuna HP amp, Im in the mountains of CA, and it gets hot 4 months of the year

- per PL, they devised the HP to not overheat or overrun the tubes, so they will not degrade more quickly. they say they run them about %50 capacity for long life. yes, there it will auto-off if overheated, but I’ve never had that happen, I think the PL is too well build for that. I just have to sell my HP b/c I have no AC, and the whole room gets so hot, I cant even enjoy the music.
- and seriously, you have a great equipment list, but I think you would get the most audio benefit and best bang for your buck with the 3.7 DAC.

@soix 

hi

R2R. Thanks for the info. Additionally thank you mentioning the other dac companies. I never heard of them. Looking forward to checking them out

I have a allowance of close to 5000 for a upgrade. I can get the 3.7.  With the vbl new in box for 3,000.00. Add another TWL digital American cable. Twl usb. That’s under five, and I’m good. Sell the 1.7 and partially  recoup. 

Or or I can stick with my 1.7 bel canto w the reflink and purchase the hp prima luna amp. Sell the MA-6500. More than partially recoup.  I guess either way it will be a improvement. Though the amp would probably make a greater difference in sound. 

Though I do like the 3.7. So it’s a tough call. 

So at the present 
McIntosh MA - 6500
ACI Sapphire XL Monitors 
BC 1.7 dac
BC reflink
macbook pro as the server. 
audioquest carbon AES, and USB
Silversonic dh labs q10 speaker cable
Silversonic Air Matrix interconnects 
TWL HP American digital PCs
Blue circle power conditioner. 

Looking to rebuild slowly but surely. I’d be content with a new dac or new amp. 

The speakers are running great. The Mcintosh works. Though I can flip it and make a profit on it. 

So so it’s either upgrade the dac or the amp. It’s a system that performs well. Though obviously if I step up a bit. I’m hardly at the land of diminishing returns. 

The 3.7 I think will be a long standing classic. Assuming you have no desire for mqa and psm. Which I do not. 

The hp luna will be around for a bit. The 3.7 is out of production. Though for 3000 n.i.b. It’s tempting. I don’t think I’ll see nib for a 3.7 again. 

I can live w my current system. It does perform well. Though The upgrade itch calls. I’m curious to see what the additional performance will bring. 

- looking for more detailed, rounded off sound. Definitely tighter bass. The Micintosh is just a sloppy excuse. Though some would kill for it. So I will not knock it too much. It’s served me well.  The 1.7 with the ref overall is good. Though jitter pops up every now and then. After all the 1.7 is entry. So I get it. That’s why I picked up the ref to improve the sound. 

Hope this info helps. I work nights sporadically so excuse my grammar, etc

regards

j

Given what you've said it would be helpful to know what your current system components are and what type of improvements you're after and what aspects of sound reproduction are most important to you.  This sounds like it could be more of a "system" type question rather than just a source question. 

But just FYI, I had both the BC DAC3 and DAC3 VB in my system on extended demo, and although the DAC3 was very good on its own the VBS was so superior it was no contest.  It was so good I'd happily add it to my system today, but I'd probably still try to audition something like a Metrum Hex or Pavane as well just to see if the newer R2R DACs sound any better.  Anyway...

@1graber2 
Congrats with your setup. It seems like a solid system to me. 

Similar taste.

My budget allows for one upgrade. A amp or the 3.7. I was debating on passing on the 3.7 and going for the p.luna HP dialogue amp. Now I’m questioning once again. I figured with my current b.canto dac, reflink - the hp luna amp would provide quite the sweet spot, and round things off a bit. 

Now I’m back on the fence with the 3.7.  I came across a Cary Audio stand alone dac hybrid w a tube stage.  I can’t recall the model. It’s selling for 1,800.00 w a 30 day trial. It normally goes for 4000.  Though it lacks a analogue input, and no external power source like the vbl. The external PS, and analog input is a nice bonus compared to the Cary. Though since we both use b.c. I get what you are stating regarding the 3.7.  

I do question if a full class D system might sound a bit sterile. Too clean. Too detailed. Though some people enjoy that sound signature. Though with class D amps. I find the bass to be ridiculously tight and authoritative. Have you considered Bryston?  Perhaps that will present a warmer sound. I heard they are very solid. Im looking for a amp that is musical, and airy with responsive bass. Perhaps the luna will come close to class D for my system regarding lower frequencies. Perhaps not. 

For my purposes the 3.7 paired to the hp luna amp would complement each other. My only concern with the P.Luna - come summertime. Will I have to keep my noisy AC on to keep the Luna from keeling over?  I do not have central air. I have in wall. 

I have heard P.Luna’s run pretty hot. Most likely shortening the tubes lifespan during the warmer months. Regardless if relays turn the unit off it becomes too hot.  

My listening area is 12x13. I listen to everything but classical. The monitors I have are power hungry Though with enough power. They are dead on. It sounds like your Dyns require mono blocks for sure. 

As a side note, I just upgraded all my PCs to TWL Digital American Series. Pretty impressive. 

Though one question?

Arizona can get a tad hot. A definite given. How did the Prima Luna perform with your given environment and working unison with your older BC dac?

What was your impression of combined SQ?

Thanks,

J

@jrd
- I got my 3.7 used from the Agon classifieds about $3000
-listening to it now :)

- everything is better in the upgrade from 2.5 to 3.7: much more full bodied sound, maybe a little richer, but more accurate and realistic sounding music. great big soundstage, Attack and decay, nuance, fast, doesn't sound pushed/forced.
 IME, this has been the result of more and cleaner external power source, and this 3.7 is no different.

- at this time I am running the 3.7 into either a Bel Canto Ref500s, 400WPC into 4 ohm Dynaudio floor standing speakers. Sounds good, but needs more power for the Dynaudio’s which need a lot of power to reveal their inner beauty. .. So I will be saving for a pair of Ref600Monos later this year ..

... the other amp I have been using was a PrimaLuna Dialogue HP Tubed Integrated, but have to sell it ... it is too hot where i live and I dont have AC. that has been the impetus to go total Class D, so I can actually listen to my reference system during the summer.

but now I’m finding out how good the 3.7 is, and the possibility of getting really close to a low-electricity system that sounds like some of the best aspects of SS and tubed audio, which has always been my favorite, bowie, the clash, floyd, oscar peterson, elton john, Queens of the Stone age, betty davis, miles of course .... etc ...

@1graber2 

May I ask where you purchased your new 3.7, and price. If personal information. I take no offense. How will you be setting it up in conjunction with your system? 

I’m still waiting for my tax return, so it might take another two weeks before purchase.  I’d love to know your initial impressions of the 3.7, and why you chose a model that is no longer in production. 

What amp will you be using in conjunction with the 3.7

So I guess we are in the same boat. As mentioned. I honestly do not feel I need all the bells and whistles until the dust has settled. 

Additionally there are a multitude of computer programs that one can use, as I’m sure you are aware of.  I honestly believe utilizing these programs consume more time then just listening to the music. 

Then there are firmware updates. Which could potentially have bugs. Troubleshooting begins.
More time spent once again setting/adjusting a program to listening to music. 

Hey. If one prefers programs and such. I won’t knock your preference. If it makes you happy. That’s what is all about! 


J

Well, I think it’s a great idea, but then again I’m biased.
I just bought a 3.7 with VBL myself, should be getting next week!

Ive had the 2.5 DAC for 4 years now.
I don’t have many DSD files, so native DSD doesn’t interest me. I think the 3.7 does DOP: DSD over PCM very very well.