"The OP was looking for top notch recordings with good performances. For me, the analog DG recordings of the Berliner made in the Jesus Christus Kirche were good, but when they changed the recording venue and went to digital recordings forget it. Not so good. I found von Karajan's recordings made in the 60's very worthwhile, but those that came later were pretty forgetable."
I agree that the 60s cycle is superb, but sound problems plague the later cycles. What bothers me about DG recordings (CDs) is the period from late 70s thru the 80s when the engineers were experimenting with close-miking techniques, plus they did not adapt well to digital in the 80s. Seems like the Philips and Decca engineers were able to get it right.
DG had to correct many of the Karajan recordings. |
Not to beat any dead horses (maybe it's too late for that) but Sergiu Celibidache was a masterful maestro and his zen like tempos have earned him somewhat of a cult like following. I highly recommend the Brahms, all 4 discs are recorded live with the Münchner Philharmoniker on EMI. I find the sonic quality to be superb and the German Requiem is included on one of the sets. I believe that Sergiu Celibidache and the Munich on EMI will be my next choice for Beethoven.
'You can't do anything other than let it happen. You just let it evolve. You don't do anything yourself. All you do is make sure that nothing disturbs this wonderful creation in any way. You are extremely active and at the same time extremely passive. You don't do anything; you just let it evolve.'
Sergiu Celibidache
For records, the mono Toscanini box set on RCA Shaded Dog is still worth digging up now and again. |
I think I have too many Beethoven sets. Five. :)
The last two complete sets I purchased were:
La Chambre Philharmonique / Krivine on period instruments
London Symphony Orch / Haitink SACD
I got the Krivine because they played period instruments and used a much smaller orch. It's growing on me. it may end up being my favorite. Less bombastic. After all it took years for Bohm to be the favorite. The first time I played bohm I thought something was wrong with the CD. It was soooo slow. Back it went on the shelf for several years. Now I appreciate slow. And he has the greatest vocals.
I got the Haitink so I could have a complete set on SACD. They were both well reviewed in the British audio / music press. I don't consider it exceptional.
I also have two 9ths by Furtwangler. The 1951 at Bayreuth and 1954 in Lucerne (sacd) I cannot get past the sound quality on either. When it comes to performance vs sound quality, I go with sound quality every time.
Cheers
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I am in the camp of having more than one version - not only because of different overall styles and sonics, but also because of the almost unavoidable variability in quality of performance and sonics among the nine symphonies regardless of overall (ie. average) quality. |
Sorry, I mean't 'eradicate the problems inherent in those original antiques'.
Tostadosunidos, I believe that most people would agree that expectations are higher whenever hearing a well known masterpiece though of course that's not to say that new compositions don't also demand a high level of performance. Either way, a sense of 'danger' is essential. This comes through in a quality piece despite its age or classification. |
It seems to be the trend however that orchestras are getting away from the golden era style of sixty string players with a silky sound, a sound which separated the Vienna from the Chicago, etc... However, Beethoven never saw such large orchestras during his life time.
I adore those days when Furtwangler, Klemperer, Böhm, Mengleberg and Von Karajan set standards with legendary performances but now I'm looking forward towards hearing more historically minded performances. Especially given the fact that instrument makers are making period instruments that incorporate advancements which erratic the problems inherent in those original antiques.
I like the band 'modern times_1800' and I'm hoping that they will expand their repertoire. They are an excellent example of a period ensemble. Some conductors/ ensembles make better decisions about performance practice than do others. I wasn't happy with Harnoncourt's Beethoven cycle and thought the historical trumpets to be disconnected from the modern orchestra. I'm glad to see that the Juilliard school has a historical performance department, this is encouraging.
Any insights about what's to come, Beethoven or otherwise? |
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I have to disagree about classical music being "composer's music"--I'd rather hear the Guarneri Quartet playing anything than most other quartets playing the finest the repertoire has to offer. As a matter of fact, it's with the "top shelf" pieces (which is a somewhat subjective category, of course) that I insist on hearing a "top shelf" performance.
So, as with so many things, "YMMV." |
Rok2id,
The OP was looking for top notch recordings with good performances. For me, the analog DG recordings of the Berliner made in the Jesus Christus Kirche were good, but when they changed the recording venue and went to digital recordings forget it. Not so good. I found von Karajan's recordings made in the 60's very worthwhile, but those that came later were pretty forgetable. |
That's a good comment. It is surprising about Karajan not being mentioned. The first complete set of LvB I purchased was his 1977 set with the Berliners on DG. An LP Box set.
He was considered one of the best, if not the best. I think he, along with Bernstein, were among the first 'Celeb' conductors.
He was good, The berliners were good and the DG engineers have a great reputation. But I seldom listen to him. I have the 1963 set on CD, and a SACD of the 1977 9th.
I still prefer the Bohm with Vienna. Vienna has the best strings since Philadelphia. Some symphony recordings let you hear within the orch. Some seem like a wall of sound. At least thats the way I hear it. I like the within.
Cheers |
Sorry for showing up late. The Paavo Jarvi Beethoven cycle is on 180 gram vinyl from the Impex lable. I bought the cycle on CD while it was being released since Mr. Jarvi was finishing his tenure here in Cincinnati along the same time. I'm surprised that no one made mention of Klemperer or Von Karajan. Admittedly, I'm a bit more fond of the Brahms Symphonies, too bad there are only four. |
Sorry it took so long but I didn't see the post right away. The reason I asked for a list of your components is that in your description of the problem, I felt it was likely that your CD player could be at fault as well. Things like dynamic contrast and great imaging are easy for vinyl. Its not the same for CD. It can be done but its much more difficult (and expensive).
I don't have a lot of experience listening to the Lector that you own. I do know, however, that it is very well regarded by many people I've spoken to, and from several other positive comments on it, as well. In light of that, my best guess would be your concern is with the recordings and not the CD player. If you have easy access to other equipment, it wouldn't hurt to compare it to different CD players, just to see.
One last thing. I have to single out Rok2id. I've read several of her (or his) comments on music and recordings, and find them to be outstanding. Always good advice. Just don't let him talk you into buying $4000 worth of cables. |
Lowrider, thanks for the correction. Would you believe P. Jarvi? |
Again, thank you all for sharing your knowledge and experience. I ordered a Jarvi CD (Symphonies 3 and 8) from Amazon and will go from there. |
"I still think Parvi on RCA may be your best bet."
.....if u mean Jarvi, I would agree for Crazee01 to start with that. |
Crazee, I also like Greensburg's lectures. He has quite a few different lecture sets and they are all worthwhile in my opinion.
As you can see from the above, the LvB symphonies are a place where one can do a good bit of sampling without spending a ton of money. Based on your clarifying comments and your original critera, I still think Parvi on RCA may be your best bet. You will find these to have generally fast tempi and good dynamics. That is the sort of approach that generally falls into the "thrilling" as opposed to "profound" category. You can also pick up the Vanska set pretty inexpensively now. Later, you might well want to gain exposure to some of the older classics, from Furtwangler, Toscanini, Bohm, etc. |
To expand on Lowrider57's comments.
There are distinct styles at play here. Furtwangler in many ways set the standard in the 40's and 50's with a slow and majestic performance. Barenboim in is that mode. On the other side are those who more recently play the symphonies as they believe they were originally played, often at a faster pace and with original phrasings and other techniques and sometimes with traditional instruments. That would be Gardiner and Harnoncourt for example. Klieber was more traditional, but at a much faster pace that Furtwangler, although the sonics on the Klieber are not up to modern standards. Many people think Bohm just got it right, with a good mix of tempo and expression. Although his recordings are from the 70's, the sonics are very good for the time. It is good to recognize these styles in determining what appeals to you.
Fortunately, several of these sets like Barenboim, Gardiner, Haroncourt, are now available for $25 or less so it is pretty easy to get several and compare. Even the Bohm on separate CDs are only about $45. Berenboim's versions with his new West-Eastern Divan Orchestra is also available from HDTracks in 24 bit 96 KHz for people looking for high rez versions. |
Brownsfan, in response, let me explain that I've been a life-long music lover, but growing up I came from the jazz, R&B side of music. When I entered the workforce in the mid-80's, my company sublet office space to a division of Polydor records, and their employees could buy CD's (all the new rage!) for $5 each. They offered me the opportunity, and with the help of a colleague, I bought what I was advised was basic repertoire classical music, more because I couldn't pass up a good deal than any real love for the music. In the ensuing years, I listened a bit to Mozart and Beethoven and others more as background music, but wasn't really captivated. Fairly recently, someone bought me, as a gift, the CD's of Prof. Greenberg's course on classical music which, to my surprise, I found fascinating. Suddenly, I had an historical context for this music and went back to listening to those old CD's more intently and with greater understanding and appreciation. Then I happened upon a DVD of Abbado and the Berliner Philharmonic of a Beethoven symphony, which I played on my home theater system (different from my two channel set up). For some reason, watching the performance and hearing the orchestra on the more powerful and dynamic (but not as good sounding) home theater, I could appreciate the delicacy, beauty and immense power of the orchestra. I bought the entire Abbado/Berliner cycle on DVD, which I really enjoy. But I can't recreate that same sonic excitement in my two channel room with the old CD's. So I don't really have any experience with multiple recordings of the Beethoven symphonies to know what I find pleasing. It's funny, because buying multiple recordings of the same music is so foreign to me. From a jazz perspective, even if I love the tune "Satin Doll," I wouldn't go out and buy various recordings of that same song to hear different versions. You buy Stan Getz records because you love Stan Getz, and it almost doesn't matter what songs he's playing. I guess that's because jazz is "player's music" whereas classical is "composer's music." In any event, I'm excited to find better sounding recordings of Beethoven and continue my exploration of this (to me) new musical world. |
I've been very impressed with what I've heard of the Vanska set. It's certainly the best sounding Beethoven I've heard. |
It is surprising how much consensus there is. There is so much here I agree with in what has been written. The Furtwangler-Barenboim comparison is one I have drawn myself on occasion. I have not heard Harnocourt's cycle, but am familiar with his style and would fully expect similarity to the Gardiner cycle.
Reflecting on this thread has taken me way back. My first love was William Steinberg's vinyl recordings of the cycle with the Pittsburgh. Next, I found the recordings of his mentor, Arturo Toscanini. Now, I find myself drawn to the Jarvi recordings, which I find recapture the spirit of that interpretive tradition.
I rarely listen to Furtwangler, Barenboim, Walter, etc. even though I find much of value there.
We have been remiss Crazee01, in that we have not asked what older recordings of the LvB symphonies that you find pleasing. Understanding more of what you have liked in the past will be the best guide in recommending what you may find "thrilling" in the current catalogue. |
Thanks for your responses. Glad to see there's some consensus.
Regarding Zd's request for an equipment list:
VPI Scoutmaster/Signature arm/Super Platter/SDS/Lyra Kleos
EAR 834P phono stage (with Singerman mods.)
Audible Illusions L2B line stage
Lector CDP 7 CD player
Rives PARC
Gallo Ref. 3.5 speakers on Bright Star Audio stands
Spectron Musician III w/all upgrades
Shunyata power conditioning |
The Barenboim/Staatskapelle Berlin cycle has outstanding sonics, but slower, sensitive, and powerful ala Furtwängler. Large orchestra with violins split left and right, double bass on the left. Recorded 1999 on Warner.
Similar to the Gardiner is Harnoncourt's cycle. Faster, powerful, smaller orchestra and recorded by Teldec.
I agree Bohm/vienna for single CDs. |
I also like the Gardiner LvB. The 2nd is as good as any I have heard. |
Rok2id told it like it is. |
For a complete set: Orchestre Revolutionnaire et Romantique, under the direction of John Eliot Gardiner.
My favorite singles:
Symphonie No. 9, Wiener Philharmoniker / Karl Bohm with Norman,Domingo,Fassbaender,Berry
Symphony Nos. 5 & 7, Wiener Philharmoniker / Carlos Kleiber
I have the Jarvi and Vanska and they are excellent also.
Cheers |
I understand what you mean when you compare CD to LP. There may be more to it, though. Can you list all of your equipment? |
For a modern set on redbook cd, given your stated preference for thrilling performances and overall good sonics, what comes to mind first is Paavo Jarvii's RCA Red Seal cycle. It 's SACD/Redbook hybrid. In places he is very Toscanini like in tempo. The sixth from this set is my favorite all time recording of Beethoven 6.
Vanska's recordings on Bis have superior sonics, but don't thrill. Very worthwhile recordings and I listen to them a lot, but given your criteria, I think you should begin sampling the Jarvi recordings and see what you think. |
