For a modern set on redbook cd, given your stated preference for thrilling performances and overall good sonics, what comes to mind first is Paavo Jarvii's RCA Red Seal cycle. It 's SACD/Redbook hybrid. In places he is very Toscanini like in tempo. The sixth from this set is my favorite all time recording of Beethoven 6.
Vanska's recordings on Bis have superior sonics, but don't thrill. Very worthwhile recordings and I listen to them a lot, but given your criteria, I think you should begin sampling the Jarvi recordings and see what you think. |
I also like the Gardiner LvB. The 2nd is as good as any I have heard. |
It is surprising how much consensus there is. There is so much here I agree with in what has been written. The Furtwangler-Barenboim comparison is one I have drawn myself on occasion. I have not heard Harnocourt's cycle, but am familiar with his style and would fully expect similarity to the Gardiner cycle.
Reflecting on this thread has taken me way back. My first love was William Steinberg's vinyl recordings of the cycle with the Pittsburgh. Next, I found the recordings of his mentor, Arturo Toscanini. Now, I find myself drawn to the Jarvi recordings, which I find recapture the spirit of that interpretive tradition.
I rarely listen to Furtwangler, Barenboim, Walter, etc. even though I find much of value there.
We have been remiss Crazee01, in that we have not asked what older recordings of the LvB symphonies that you find pleasing. Understanding more of what you have liked in the past will be the best guide in recommending what you may find "thrilling" in the current catalogue. |
Tostadosunidos, I pulled out my old 1983 4th/7th pairing. It was not excessively bright on my ModWright Sony and not really unpleasant to listen to. But, my assessment remains fundamentally unchanged. This was disappointing, artistically, and of course, it is still 83 digital, even if it is better through the ModWright.
Goofyfoot, I bought the DG remaster. |
Crazee, I also like Greensburg's lectures. He has quite a few different lecture sets and they are all worthwhile in my opinion.
As you can see from the above, the LvB symphonies are a place where one can do a good bit of sampling without spending a ton of money. Based on your clarifying comments and your original critera, I still think Parvi on RCA may be your best bet. You will find these to have generally fast tempi and good dynamics. That is the sort of approach that generally falls into the "thrilling" as opposed to "profound" category. You can also pick up the Vanska set pretty inexpensively now. Later, you might well want to gain exposure to some of the older classics, from Furtwangler, Toscanini, Bohm, etc. |
Lowrider, thanks for the correction. Would you believe P. Jarvi? |
Rok2id,
The OP was looking for top notch recordings with good performances. For me, the analog DG recordings of the Berliner made in the Jesus Christus Kirche were good, but when they changed the recording venue and went to digital recordings forget it. Not so good. I found von Karajan's recordings made in the 60's very worthwhile, but those that came later were pretty forgetable. |
Lowrider, What happened at DG is hard to understand. DG made terrific recordings then suddenly forgot what music sounded like. The JCK is by all accounts a terrific recording venue. I have a recent recording by Angela Hewitt recorded there and it is very nice. I heard the DG engineers were not happy about being forced to record in the then new Berlin concert hall instead of the JCK. Trying to make the switch to digital at more or less the same time made for a train wreck I guess. |
Lowrider, I don't own any HvK CD's from the 60's cycle. I had the vinyl back in the day. By the time the 80's rolled around, I was moving away from vinyl and the HvK's were so worn you could see through them.
I am thinking about buying whatever I can find from the 60's cycle on redbook. Last night, all I could find was the 3rd, 9th, and I think maybe the 5th. No mention of them being remastered. If DG remastered the 60's HvK's and reissued them I'd buy them in a New York minute.
You are correct about HvKs age. He was a great conductor. HvK, LvB, and I spent much time together. |
This discussion really brings back the memories Lowrider. As a poor student, I cut my teeth on William Steinberg's Pittsburgh Beethoven set. 9 symphonies, $10. Later when I had a little more money I began to accumulate the von Karajan set from the 60's. I will never forget years later, hearing the digital recording of the 7th how terribly disappointed I was. |
Lowrider, Thank you thank you thank you! Your link got me (eventually) to the sacd remasters of the 63 Karajan LvB, which I bought in a small fragment of a New York minute. Woohoo, this is fun. Shall we do Brahms next? |
There is something a bit surprising in the Brahms recommendations coming in. Did you notice? Bohm, Giulini, Toscanini, Toscanini, Toscanini, and another vote for Giulini. One German conductor for the most quintessentially German music ever written.
Al, I am listening to the 1940 Toscanini NBCSO. It is quite remarkable. This is well worth hearing, and much better than his 1952 effort on the 1st. |
Goofyfoot, Its been a long time. My memory is good, but--- I can't swear to any of this. What I remember having heard at the time would be in agreement with your "necessary evil" scenario. What I remember is that once construction of the Berliner Philharmonie was complete, there was an enormous amount of pressure applied to the Philharmoniker to shift recordings to that venue. I don't know who was applying the pressure. The facility was completed in 1963. This change in venue was not something DG desired, as I recall.
I suppose referring to early digital as a necessary evil is as apt a description as any.
I do think that excellent recordings can be made in most venues today, provided that you have a recording company that wants to make the effort. I'm not sure I can think of one decent recording in my collection made in the Barbican, so I think there is a limit to what competent engineering can overcome. I'd love to here a new recording made of the Clevelanders in the old Masonic Auditorium. Some of those were pretty special (at least to me).
Your point regarding viable economics is apt. The money has to work, unless you are fortunate enough to have someone underwrite. |
Tostadosunidos, I will attempt to listen to the 4th and 7th tonight. Not only did I find the recording quality objectionable, I thought von Karajan fell way short of his previous effort. The 7th from the 60's was magical. The 80's version was nothing special. I may try and pick up reissues of the 9th and 3rd from the 60's. Those were the only ones I saw. |
Lowrider, I have the Giulini/VPO Brahms you mentioned. It is wonderful. I also agree on the price for the Japanese imports, although I may pull the trigger on the Kempe/Strauss reissues when they are available. No one can touch Kempe on Strauss imo.
Almaarg, I also admire the Toscanini Brahms. I haven't listened to his 1st in a while. I will put that on my playlist. |
Al, Have you heard the Toscanini 1952 (NBCSO) recording of the 2nd? It is aural seratonin with just a dash of dopamine. Pure joy! |
Al, http://www.amazon.com/Brahms-Four-Symphonies-Symphony-Orchestra/dp/B00000JPCE/ref=sr_1_4?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1361549900&sr=1-4
All 4 Brahms symphonies for ~ $20. Digitally remastered. The 2nd is the one that really stands out here. I think it is my favorite Brahms 2. Sound is about as good as you can expect for that era. |
Goofyfoot, I have so far just refused to pay that kind of money. Although, as I said earler, I have heard they are working on the Klempe SDO recordings of the Strauss tone poems. I will almost certainly give 1 or 2 of those a try.
BTW, I really like the Ashkenazy Sibelius 2 on Exton, and it comes with the most lovely recording of the Swans of Tuenalla(sp) I have yet heard. Its a rare month where that disk doesn't get a couple of playings. |
Learsfool, The next time you see Greensburg tell him thanks for me. My last formal music class was 1966 8th grade music. I have the vast majority of his courses, and several of them I have been through at least twice. I'm working my way through the Mozart chamber set now. As usual, he has opened my ears to some gems I was not familiar with.
On the Brahms , I admire much of what Abbado has done but I haven't heard his Brahms. i will check this out and probably the Szell also. I also would love to hear Welser-Most and the Clevelanders do a cycle. I heard them do the Violin Concerto with Zimmerman several years back and found it to be mighty fine Brahms.
I found the 1940 Toscanini Brahms to be very un-Toscanini like. Very Teutonic. Had I heard it without knowing i would never have guessed it was him.
On the Beethoven, the Gardiner set is a great one and it does get played, especially the 2nd. But you know, I just can't make the historically informed/original instrument approach my base camp. Its worthwhile, informative, enjoyable, but it speaks to my mind. Not my heart. |
Lowrider, I'm not so sure that Haydn had that much of an influence on Beethoven. His study with Haydn was financed by a benefactor. From my understanding this arrangement mostly served to set Beethoven up in Vienna from Beethoven's point of view.
Indirectly, I suspect Bach had more influence on Beethoven than Haydn did.
I am sympathetic to the argument that a great deal of flexibility in tempi was expected. Otherwise, how does one explain Brahms' bizarre attempts at explaining what he wanted in Italian. Mahler I think took a better course and used his native German. I understand his scores leave little doubt regarding his intentions. |
Lowrider, I can't offer an opinion on the best sounding Toscanini. What I can tell you is that the RCA red seals I have of the Beethoven and Brahms symphonies are pretty decent. They have been remastered and are much better than the same recordings (vinyl) I had in the late 60's early 70's. You can get the 9 Beethoven symphonies for about $20 on Amazon now. That might be a good place to start. I don't own any of the Testament recordings or EMI's. |
Goofyfoot, Krips---wow, that is a name I haven;t heard for years! Back in the day, I remember having had one Krips recording. I think it may have been Schubert. That is the sum total of my experience and memory. Too many tumbleweeds in the great synaptic expanse, I fear. |
Lowrider, Goofyfoot, and all interested in the remastered 63 von Karajan set.
It arrived today, and I started off with the 7th and 8th, both of which I owned and loved on vinyl, then went to the 1st and 2nd. In terms of the sound, it is well, a bit of a mixed bag. You get the nice ambience of the Jesus Christus Kirche, and the upper strings are fairly sweet. The lower strings tend to be a bit muddy at times, and the tympani lacks the sharp attack and proper decay for which one might hope. You will not be fooled into thinking this is a 2013 Linn release.
BUT---its HvK in his prime. The 7th and 8th are even better than I had remembered. His approach on the 1st is a little to much Haydn and too little LvB for my taste, but still worthwhile. I remember Lennie Bernstein's remark "This is no minueto!" and I think he was dead right.
Back in the day I owned the LvB 3rd, 5th, 6 th, 7th, 8th and 9th from the 63 HvK cycle. This may be enough of a teaser to get me to try one of the Japanese remasters. |
Goofyfoot, I would probably be most likely to spring the money for the 7th, although I had a deep love for HVKs 3rd as well. I would take them one at a time, depending on how they sound.
The best I can describe the DG remasters is like when you first began to think about getting a replacement stylus. There is substantial grunge in the sound. There is definitely room for improvement. The sound quality was quite uniform in the symphonies I heard last night. |
Goofyfoot, Steely is not a problem on the DG remasters based on what I have heard so far. At least not steely in a digital steely sense. I think you really have to buy this stricktly on artistic merit. That said, I'm sure the remastering helped some. |
Update on the DG SACD 1963 Herbert von Karajan recordings. Tonight I listened to the Eroica. I was stunned. Just stunned, by how much better the recording quality was from the 1, 2, 7, & 8. Yes, there was still a little grunge here and there, but it was really good. Lower strings were not at all tubby or bloated. Horns were glorious. Violins were satisfactory. And this, my friends, is the best Eroica I have heard. I had forgotten how good this was in the 35 years since I last heard it.
Now I know why I loved HvK so much in my youth and wandered away as he aged. Stay tuned, perhaps tomorrow night I will do the 4th or the 5th. |
Goofyfoot, With the first dozen measures of the DG Eroica, the thought came to mind that the Japanese cherry picked the 3rd. The 3rd and 4th are the only ones I see available in the Japanese remasters. On the other hand, if the Japanese were able to remove just a little more of the grunge that I still hear in the DG, then it may be worth $50. This performance is one for the ages. The SHM process offers some advantages that are not available to a standard hybrid SACD, so there could be improvements due to that apart differences in how the remasterings may have been done. I think I am in the process of talking myself into trying one of the Japanese remasters. Not quite there yet, but getting close. |
Goofyfoot, It is a real dilemma. Here I sit, with my recently purchased DG SACD remasters, for the most part thrilled with the artistic merit, but recognizing that the recordings leave much to be desired. Certainly, they aren't bad at all for 1962 vintage recordings, --but, well, its still mostly about the artistic merit. I've heard 1-8 now, and guess what? The 3rd and 4th rise well above the rest with respect to recording quality. The very ones that are offered as SHM remasters. What to do?
Is it possible that the SHM reputation is based on astute cherry picking, or are they going to take this already excellent DG effort on the 3rd and 4th to a new level.
Apparently, the Universal Japan remasters of the Kempe Strauss are available, and expensive. Some of the reviews on other releases in the Universal Japan EMI catalogue have not been favorable. These are not SHM recordings. Again, what to do?
Rok2id, if you go to the acoustic sounds website, any of the SHM offerings give a brief description. That would be the sum total of what I know. |
Guys I suspect that the master tapes on 3&4 are superior to the rest. That is why the DG remasters sound so much better than the other symphonies, and why the Japanese selected the 3rd and 4th for their efforts as opposed to the remaining symphonies. |
Lowrider, as I said earlier, this is more about artistic merit than sonics. The 3rd and 4th are stunning in terms of recording quality. This is my favorite 7th, just wish they could have improved the sonics. |
Lowrider, I have a Sony SACD of a 1957 Szell/Clevleand Orchestra recording of Don Juan, Death and Transfiguration, and Till Eulenspiegel that is just stunning. What was possible in the late 50s and 60's is just amazing. It is all about the master tapes.
DG is well known for superior art and bad technology. Its just a shame really. We have the same thing today. Pick up a few of the best Linn or Channel Classics recordings and it just floors you how good they are.
I think it is rather sad that so many of the major labels, Sony in particular, has chosen to abandon SACD.
The people who were responsible for the Szell recording left a legacy. The people who muddied up HvKs LvB darn near ruined one. A couple of recent releases by Telarc are just awful. Shamefully bad recordings. |
Can we go back to Brahms for a second? Yesterday I made the trip to Chicago to hear Thielemann/Dresden State Orchestra do the Brahms 4. Wow, that was some kind of Brahms. Best Brahms 4 I ever heard. Well worth 7 hours of driving and a $30 parking bill. Anyone else make the concert?
I'm going to have to rethink my preference for Italian conductors and Brahms. |
Stringreen, I agree. Everytime I play the gardiners I think I've got a tube going bad. Its a shame, because based on artistic merit these recordings are real winners. And his Missa Solemnis, despite the bad recoridng quality, is really the only one I listen to much. Speaking of the Missa, anyone heard Herrewhegge's account on Harmonia Mundi? |
Lowrider, It was one of those experiences you don't forget. It was, for me at least, the Brahms 4 that stole the show. The violin concerto was very good. Not great. It was cool seeing the concerto played on the ex-Joachim Strad, which I presume was used at the first concert in Leipzig. I was sitting in the 4th row, main floor, right in front of the soloist. At the end of the 4th, during the applause, Christian looked me right in the eye and said Thank You (not danke). Then he turned to the audience and said, "you know what we are going to play." We got the Wagner as the encore. Superb! Makes me want to move to Dresden!. |
Chicago really liked him, and boy was that snippet of Wagner a serious tease! I need to get up there more often for concerts. PM hasn't come through yet. Saturday night we heard the piano version of the Brahms violin concerto here in Indy, plus the Rite of Spring. Then up to Chicago for an all Brahms program. Last Wed I heard the Brentano Quartet here in town with 2 of the Beethoven quartets. Its been a week in Valhalla! This, my friends, is paradise regained! |
Goofyfoot, I had my eye on that Brahms set for a long time prior to its release. I got the impression from one review I read that it might be along the same lines as the Macarras set on Telarc, which is OK but is not necessarily what I like in Brahms. Maybe this is worth a 2nd look. I take it this is a set you recommend highly. |
Goofyfoot, The review I read was on SACD.net. I got the idea it was another post HIP run of the mill me too. I do agree on CPO. Check out the Dvorak quartets. I love the first release. Also, I really like Venzago's Bruckner, and plan on ordering the upcoming Teleman St. Lukas Passion. Its a great label.
Brahms, I can love uber Teutonic, i can love lyricissimo Italian, but I can't warm up to anemic Brahms. If you order this and find it to your liking, let me know. For now, I'm hoping the Polini/Theileman/DSO portends much more Brahms, even if it has to come on Deutche Gramophone. What I heard Sunday in Chicago won me over. I loved that Brahms 4! |
Goofyfoot, I reread the SA-CD.net review on the Manze Brahms. Its a bit more positive than I had remembered it. This may well be worth a shot. |
Goofyfoot, I get no enjoyment out of doing this, but I think the Janowski 4th is more to my liking that the 2nd and 3rd. I used the same reasoning and found the 2nd and 3rd a let down. Don't listen to that disc much. |
