Brownsfan,
Good to know...i also like the Missa Solemnis by Gardiner. Have not heard the Herrewhegge...do post if you hear it. |
Stringreen, I agree. Everytime I play the gardiners I think I've got a tube going bad. Its a shame, because based on artistic merit these recordings are real winners. And his Missa Solemnis, despite the bad recoridng quality, is really the only one I listen to much. Speaking of the Missa, anyone heard Herrewhegge's account on Harmonia Mundi? |
Gardiner's cycle is poorly recorded....I think they tried to put too much on each disc. |
Thanks Lloydelee for the recommendation. I got started on this when I was in Odessa, Ukraine and I went to a piano recital in the Philharmonie. The pianist was superb and he had studied abroad at the Juilliard School in the early 1960's. Of course he went back to Ukraine because he had secured a position, probably teaching. I'll keep looking around in this realm for Beethoven but for other composers also.
By the way, I have a recording of Szell conducting the Coriolan Overture in 1959 at the Prague Spring Festival with the Czech Phil. It's a very satisfying live performance. |
Goofyfoot,
I think you are right. I really like Pletnev, Horowitz and the latest find is the conductor Tugan Sokhiev with the Toulouse National Orchestra. He studied in Eastern Europe...I have gotten nearly everything he has done with that orchestra...his Pictures at an Exhibition is extraordinary in my opinion, mny favorite interpretation, and i have several at home and i consider Pictures one of my fav orchestral pieces of all time. |
Hi Loydelee,
Maybe we could give this subject a bit more latitude; USSR recordings including Eastern Block countries like Hungary, etc... The point being that Vienna and Budapest are next door neighbors, so one might conclude that a handful of Beethoven performances recorded from behind the 'Iron Curtain' would be of significance. My assumption is that despite Mylodia and their efforts from the 1950's forward, that many recordings are yet to be delivered to the public domain.
A while back, the Appian label released a series of recordings entitled 'The Russian Piano Tradition' and it would appear that this was an attempt to finally release unfamiliar Russian recordings to us here in the west. As one might imagine, it included Beethoven pieces from Maria Yudina but also from many other Russian pianists who are anything but household names. This series has been out of print now for a few or more years. What I'm driving at is that I believe we're just scratching the surface when it comes to Russian and Eastern European artists, including those who attended conservatories both in the US and in Western Europe. |
Sorry cannot say...except that Pletnev on Scarlatti piano works is exceptional ihmo. |
I also posted on a Gramophone forum with respect to the Beethoven Cycles and was informed of the Mikhail Pletnev cycle with the Russian National Orchestra. Has anyone heard this set? What is your opinion of Russian or Eastern European academies whenever concerning the music of Vienna or of Central Europe? This is of interest to me in the context that many recordings made during the Soviet Union are just now being discovered by us here in the West. |
Brownsfan, well thank you kind sir, you've just saved me $15.00 that can be put to use somewhere else. In fact I've had my eye on the Bob Dylan 'Blood on the Tracks' SACD from Mobile Fidelity.
Brahms is a tough composer to weed through seeing that many of the greatest interpretations date back to the 1940's. As a result, Brahms lovers can be set in their ways, therefore making it difficult for the newer recordings to live up to those previous accomplishments. I'm looking at my Andante Brahms Symphonies box set and the conductors on it are;
Toscanini 1941, Walter 1936, Stokowski 1936, Mengelberg 1932, Monteux 1945, Sabata 1936, Furtwängler 1945, Weingartner 1938. |
Goofyfoot, I get no enjoyment out of doing this, but I think the Janowski 4th is more to my liking that the 2nd and 3rd. I used the same reasoning and found the 2nd and 3rd a let down. Don't listen to that disc much. |
Well Brownsfan, after having read the David Hurwitz review, I am now skeptical about this Brahms Manze set. This was the first out and out criticism of the performances that I've read and while I try not to give reviews too much credit, I tend to side with Mr. Hurwitz on most accounts.
Damn those critics, they always ruin everything.
However, I do own the Marek Janowski Brahms 4 with the Hungarian Dances on PetaTone and while I prefer the Ivan Fischer and the Budapest Festival Orchestra Hungarian Dances to that of Janowski and the Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra, the 4th is worth the price of the disk in and of itself. So I've made a final decision being that my next Brahms purchase will be the Marek Janowski Brahms 2 & 3 with the PSO on PentaTone. Yes, I know that I'm playing it safe here but because I don't have money to throw around, then so shall it be.
It's funny because I tend to weed through the western and central European groups first but here I am siding again with the Pittsburgh. How times have changed. |
Goofyfoot, I reread the SA-CD.net review on the Manze Brahms. Its a bit more positive than I had remembered it. This may well be worth a shot. |
Brownsfan, I'll see if I can grab up those recommended CD's from the public library. The library does purchase a good number of classical recordings but they typically make ill informed choices.
Anyway, so you're saying that the review that you read on the Manze Brahms was that it's run of the mill? Then there seems to be some inconsistencies between reviews, here are some citations from the review on ArkivMusic;
'Nevertheless, these recordings have much to commend them, and Manze achieves his goal, whether h.i.p. or post-h.i.p., of breathing new life into works stifled by their own performance traditions.'
'Fortunately then, the Helsingborg Symphony Orchestra ensures that every moment in these recordings is worth focusing on. The balance is excellent, a result perhaps of Manze going for a moderately sized string section. Vibrato in the strings is present but minimal, while the woodwind soloists are permitted a little more wobble. The constrained tones of the horns and trombones contribute most to the 19 th century atmosphere of the orchestral sound. The SACD sound is excellent, and the recording really benefits from the warm but clear acoustic of the Helsingborg Concert Hall.'
'Something different, then, to add to your Brahms collection. Manze pursues his aesthetic ideology quite doggedly here, but never at the expense of the results. He's too much of a professional to let his scholarship ever stand in the way of his intuitive musicianship, which must surely have played just as big a role in the formation of these interpretations.'
The reviewers on Amazon also give praise to his set so that's from where I've been formulating my expectations. This best way of course is to hear it for myself. |
Agree, Lloydelee21. Very dynamic and very well paced. It's on L'Oiseau-Lyre, so naturally the sound is first-rate.
I wasn't sure about buying this HIP cycle; it's not widely reviewed, so I bought them all individually(used) and I'm glad I did. |
Goofyfoot, The review I read was on SACD.net. I got the idea it was another post HIP run of the mill me too. I do agree on CPO. Check out the Dvorak quartets. I love the first release. Also, I really like Venzago's Bruckner, and plan on ordering the upcoming Teleman St. Lukas Passion. Its a great label.
Brahms, I can love uber Teutonic, i can love lyricissimo Italian, but I can't warm up to anemic Brahms. If you order this and find it to your liking, let me know. For now, I'm hoping the Polini/Theileman/DSO portends much more Brahms, even if it has to come on Deutche Gramophone. What I heard Sunday in Chicago won me over. I loved that Brahms 4! |
Well, the Hogwood AAM Beethoven cycle arrived today...early! 1st, 3rd and 5th are really great. listening to 5th now...i really like this set so far. Very well paced, both contemplative, taking its time and yet filled with energy...all of which is very nicely recorded. he keeps the tension nicely taut thru the 5th so far. not bombastic but with a dynamism that is fun to enjoy. And again, nice recording. |
Brownsfan, I can't recommend it highly just yet (not until I own it at least) but one of the reviews (possibly on ArkivMusic) highly favors this performance over any of the other period recordings. Apparently, Manze had done some extensive research and only used it to his advantage. Also, CPO is one of my favorite labels for its clarity of sound and its open soundstage.
I do own a Manze recording of him conducting Mozart with the English Consort and it's delightful.
I'll just have to do some creative financing to cover the cost, but that will be a couple weeks from now. |
Goofyfoot, I had my eye on that Brahms set for a long time prior to its release. I got the impression from one review I read that it might be along the same lines as the Macarras set on Telarc, which is OK but is not necessarily what I like in Brahms. Maybe this is worth a 2nd look. I take it this is a set you recommend highly. |
Thanks, Goofyfoot. Much appreciated your continued participation here...much to read and enjoy. I will certainly post when it arrives from Amazon. I always buy second hand. Hope to have it next week. |
Loydelee, I often find that Hogwood, Manze and Gardiner are mentioned together contextually. We somewhat got off track from Beethoven and touched upon the Brahms Symphonies. I may find a way to order the Manze Brahms recordings which are on CPO. They've gotten rave reviews from critics and fans alike. I wish I also had the means to purchase the Hogwood set that you've ordered. My guess is that both the Manze and the Hogwood are audiophile standard recordings. |
Wow! Thanks, Lowrider57! Now, i am even more excited! And yes, that was exactly my initial impression...very different than the cycles i already have. I did not want to get a complete cycle...only to think its a whole nother cycle but not bringing me a new interpretation of Beethoven. I enjoy playing truly different interpretations of certain music. I have several Goldberg variations for example. |
Lloydelee21, A very good choice....so different than the cycles we've been discussing. I won't spoil it for you, all I'll say is I like that he credits his musicians and the period instruments they play.
Will wait for your review. |
After some deliberation and listening to snips, i decided to go for something different. I have Karajan '63 remastered, Furtwangler's war-time remastered versions from Tahra and Audite, and also Harnoncourt.
So went with Hogwood and the AAM. Deliberate, studious and period...looking forward to it. |
Chicago really liked him, and boy was that snippet of Wagner a serious tease! I need to get up there more often for concerts. PM hasn't come through yet. Saturday night we heard the piano version of the Brahms violin concerto here in Indy, plus the Rite of Spring. Then up to Chicago for an all Brahms program. Last Wed I heard the Brentano Quartet here in town with 2 of the Beethoven quartets. Its been a week in Valhalla! This, my friends, is paradise regained! |
"We got the Wagner as the encore."
He must really like Chicago.
(I sent u a PM). |
Lowrider, It was one of those experiences you don't forget. It was, for me at least, the Brahms 4 that stole the show. The violin concerto was very good. Not great. It was cool seeing the concerto played on the ex-Joachim Strad, which I presume was used at the first concert in Leipzig. I was sitting in the 4th row, main floor, right in front of the soloist. At the end of the 4th, during the applause, Christian looked me right in the eye and said Thank You (not danke). Then he turned to the audience and said, "you know what we are going to play." We got the Wagner as the encore. Superb! Makes me want to move to Dresden!. |
Brownsfan... so that's where you've been. Lucky you.
http://chicagoclassicalreview.com/2013/04/thielemann-batiashvili-and-dresden-orchestra-serve-up-memorable-afternoon-of-brahms/ |
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B006VOWTZI/ref=as_li_tf_til?tag=clacdrev-20&camp=14573&creative=327641&linkCode=as1&creativeASIN=B006VOWTZI&adid=073WMM6BMAN4D3Q1YAXN&&ref-refURL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.classical-cd-reviews.com%2F2012%2F06%2Fbrahms-symphonies-andrew-manze.html |
Can we go back to Brahms for a second? Yesterday I made the trip to Chicago to hear Thielemann/Dresden State Orchestra do the Brahms 4. Wow, that was some kind of Brahms. Best Brahms 4 I ever heard. Well worth 7 hours of driving and a $30 parking bill. Anyone else make the concert?
I'm going to have to rethink my preference for Italian conductors and Brahms. |
Sir Colin Davis just passed at 85. If I'm not mistaken, I remember his recordings with the Cleveland. Could have been the Egmont Overture. I'm amazed that conductors of this era are able to continue, Claudio Abbado being among them. |
As I think I mentioned much earlier in this thread, I have been watching the DVD's of Abbado's performances of the Beethoven symphony cycle that were recorded about 10 years ago, with the Berlin Philharmonic. About 2/3 of the personnel of that orchestra changed under Abbado, and he made that group what it is right now, one of the top handful of orchestras in the world. All of those performances are incredible, and there is a nice interview with Abbado about both Beethoven (about which I agree with basically ever word he says) and his time in Berlin in general. Very highly recommended, especially for the performances. The blend and transparency he achieves with the Berliners is amazing. For me, there is not a better living conductor, and would be my first choice to get to work with at some point on the list of those I have not been able to in my career. |
Hi,
I listened to the Gardiner Beethoven 7th yesterday and was thoroughly pleased with the performance but not so much with the recording. It seems that with these recordings in general, that the lowest registers, i.e. the double basses, tend to suffer from anemia. The dynamics are not the same, detail is lost and the sound stage leaves some shallow muddiness that just appears as a quiet low drone. It's still worth having these performances but I would make sure to purchase the newer box set. |
Learsfool, thanks for the input. I do listen to radio online, WDR 3, BBC Radio 3, France Musique. I've even written letters to them asking if they wouldn't expand their server space with memberships which could then allow members to listen at 1411 kbps instead of 320 kbps or less. The low resolution is the only thing that I don't like about audio streaming.
I occasionally look at a groups website but usually soloists and chamber groups. It hardly ever comes to mind to look at an orchestras website.
I've never tried Satellite Radio but it is available in an internet streaming format. |
Hi Lowrider, Goofyfoot - I would suggest that you simply visit the websites of orchestras that you like and see what is out there - they will have details on recordings for purchase, and also sometimes you can hear recent performances for a limited period of time. Some of these are free, some not. Most classical radio stations also regularly air broadcasts of recent concerts from a few different top orchestras. I am not very familiar with satellite radio, so I couldn't tell you how those classical stations work, but there may well be stuff available that way as well. But most regular radio stations stream on the internet, so you can always find the local classical station near an orchestra you like and check their broadcast schedules and listen that way. Typically, these broadcasts occur during the evenings, at or near what would be a regular concert hour. |
Much of what I hear on my radio are studio recordings, orchestral or otherwise.
All of the CSO recordings with Paavo Jarvi are studio recordings. Yes of course, by live I mean a top rate recording of one evening from start to finish. I find that my favorite recordings are the Orfeo d'Or remasters of the Salzburg Festivals ( the Clara Haskil is breathtaking and in mono). Always appreciate your sharing your knowledge Learsfool and Lowrider, etc... Any good orderly direction is also appreciated. |
Interesting comment, Learsfool and most appreciated. Do u have suggestions for web broadcasts of symphony and concerto? |
Hi Lowrider, Goofyfoot, and anyone else discussing the state of recording today. One of you wrote: "I just wish there could be more of an emphasis put on live recordings and damn the mistakes, that's just part of the process."
Actually, this is exactly how the vast majority of orchestras do any recording at all anymore, at least the live part. About the only way my orchestra ever does any recording anymore is by releasing stuff from the live concerts, with just a very little editing done to them. Not from a patch session, either, the only material used is from the live performances. Then the recording is usually released only in the local area - no middle men. This is why you do not see very many out there. It is basically only one step up from the radio broadcasts of the concerts, and also without the compression, of course.
Some of the very biggest orchestras still make occasional recordings for the very big labels, but these are few and far between. Usually, orchestras use the process described above, and are essentially their own "label". It is all self-produced. They can usually be purchased on the orchestra's website, or locally, but are not otherwise available.
This method is far less expensive than the normal way, which is still used, and the advantage to folks like yourselves who wish that recordings were more live is that these basically are - as I said, not even one patch session, just the material from the live concerts, usually three in a weekend for most full-time orchestras. The only thing closer to a live recording, unless of course it actually is one, are the radio broadcasts. These are unedited, though the best parts of the weekend will be chosen. I serve on the committee in my orchestra that chooses what is broadcast from each symphonic weekend's program (for instance, it might be the Sunday overture, the Saturday first two movements of a concerto with the Sunday third movement, and for a four movement symphony you might get something from all three nights, whichever the committee feels were the best performances). So I would encourage those of you who want to listen to recordings that are almost live to search the web for radio broadcasts. |
I would love to own a good R-R deck. From what I know of DG history, they and decca were tops for classical. They merged w. Polygram 1972; funny that they started to have problems in the mid 70s and then they had trouble adapting to Digital. From an insider I heard the engineers were unhappy with the company. So yes inconsistent |
Lowrider, well at least they're being honest, if that's of any consequence?
My local classical radio station (it's often silly, however it) features a live concert once a week from anywhere but typically from Western Europe and it makes me wish that I had a better Magnum Dynalab and a professional reel to reel so that I could tape them.
You know, I have a DG mono platter of Karajan conducting the Brahms 4th that I believe was recorded in 1966 and it sounds wonderful. It seems that in the big picture, that DG has a track record of being inconsistent, am I right to say that? One prime example would be the Anne Sophie Mutter recordings of the Mozart Violin Concertos on CD compared to the Concertos on DVD. The performances of both are wonderful but the DVD recording sounds thin and a little gritty in comparison to the CD's. Sorry but I didn't have any Beethoven examples. |
Thanks for all the feedback...great reading. I may try these Gardiner symphonies now. I do enjoy the Karajans...i will give another listen soon. |
"I just wish there could be more of an emphasis put on live recordings and damn the mistakes, that's just part of the process."
I love live recordings in a good concert hall, and not only that, I wish a classical work would be recorded continuously and not edited in post. I have a CD (forget which one) that lists something like : Mvmt 1... Thursday performance, Mvmt 2... Friday performance, Mvmt 3... Rehearsal.
That's IMO worse than the current Pop/Rock recording procedure of 1 musician at a time, then edit the band together, |
OK, thanks for clarifying Lowrider, now I see your point. Also, these smaller niche labels like Harmonia Mundi are able to rise from the ashes and become a major player in the recording industry. Even though they have been around for a fairly long time, it wasn't until the affordability of the compact disk that they could be taken seriously. In a way, I view this as an improvement but there is nothing to be gained from RCA Victor's lack of involvement by comparison to its past and no, that's not being overly nostalgic. I just wish there could be more of an emphasis put on live recordings and damn the mistakes, that's just part of the process. |
"Plus the remastering and restoration releases from Andante, d'Orfeo, Testament, Music and Arts of America, and Pearl."
and I'm glad we have companies like these (also the Cheskys) to preserve the great music of the past. The major record labels either cut the classical budgets or shut down operations worldwide. That's one reason a company like Naxos is thriving.
I hope this makes sense of the earlier posts. |
Goofyfoot, you are correct that there is plenty of high quality music today, but look at the labels u have listed; they are all indies or niche labels.
I was referring to a time when the mega-labels were buying up the quality labels and their studios; Polygram buys Decca and DG, Universal buys Polygram, Sony buys Columbia, EMI, RCA and all it's classical entities, etc. There were budget cuts and elimination of classical labels and studios. Teldec is no more; it is Warner Music, who at least is still recording classical.
My point is that in the 40s, 50s to 60s, music was a craft with many technical advances and the engineer was the most important person in the room.
The labels you list are what I look for when buying new music and they have a commitment to excellence and have contributed to further advances in technology. So u are absolutely correct that there is high-end music being produced. My point is the business went thru a period of instability and I realize I was also sounding very nostalgic for the pioneers of music recording. |
Lowrider and Brownsfan, I truly respect your opinions but I cannot completely agree that great recordings are a thing of the past. I would even make the claim that while a large number of todays recordings do fall short of what should be considered the industry standard, that a larger percentage of todays recordings are superb when compared to the percentages in the past.
To name some of the labels that I believe offer excellence more often than not;
ECM New Series, Harmonia Mundi, Allia Vox, Hyperion, Musikproduction Dabringhaus und Grimm, Challenge Classics, Pentatone, BIS, OEHMS, OPUS 111, Naïve, Zig Zag, Praga, ERATO, Koch,Teldec Das Alte Werk and yes, even a good many from Deutsche Grammophone.
Also there are the budget labels like Naxos, Channel or Brilliant (compared to URANIA?).
Plus the remastering and restoration releases from Andante, d'Orfeo, Testament, Music and Arts of America, and Pearl.
I collect mono vinyl from the mid to late 1950's and there are some fine recordings in my record bin but the production costs alone during that era made the volume of recordings limited when compared by todays standards. That's why the American and British labels became iconic and European labels where esoteric even with serious collectors. |
Well said, Brownsfan. That generation of brilliant recording engineers is long gone; and the music business along with it.
I have some very good late 1950s recordings from EMI. It's a shame that DG had a hold on many of the best artists.
|
Lowrider, I have a Sony SACD of a 1957 Szell/Clevleand Orchestra recording of Don Juan, Death and Transfiguration, and Till Eulenspiegel that is just stunning. What was possible in the late 50s and 60's is just amazing. It is all about the master tapes.
DG is well known for superior art and bad technology. Its just a shame really. We have the same thing today. Pick up a few of the best Linn or Channel Classics recordings and it just floors you how good they are.
I think it is rather sad that so many of the major labels, Sony in particular, has chosen to abandon SACD.
The people who were responsible for the Szell recording left a legacy. The people who muddied up HvKs LvB darn near ruined one. A couple of recent releases by Telarc are just awful. Shamefully bad recordings. |
Brownsfan...sorry i missed your post. That reason makes the most sense. |
I'll buy your explanation, Goofyfoot. It makes sense and would dispel my conspiracy theories.
' Reissue features the high-fidelity SHM-SACD format (fully compatible with standard SACD player, but it does not play on standard CD players).'
I saw that as well... thanks for that link. |
Guys I suspect that the master tapes on 3&4 are superior to the rest. That is why the DG remasters sound so much better than the other symphonies, and why the Japanese selected the 3rd and 4th for their efforts as opposed to the remaining symphonies. |
