The Barenboim/Staatskapelle Berlin cycle has outstanding sonics, but slower, sensitive, and powerful ala Furtwängler. Large orchestra with violins split left and right, double bass on the left. Recorded 1999 on Warner.
Similar to the Gardiner is Harnoncourt's cycle. Faster, powerful, smaller orchestra and recorded by Teldec.
I agree Bohm/vienna for single CDs. |
Brownsfan, I'm glad u found it. I have too many cds on order right now so I'll have to wait on the Karajan.
If u are seriously looking for a Brahms cycle on CD, I suggest Giulini/VPO on Newton Classics 1991. His Brahms is slower and he reveals every nuance that, IMO, other conductors miss. Plus those Vienna strings are sublime.
I don't own a SACD, so I look for the best Redbook available. |
"I still think Parvi on RCA may be your best bet."
.....if u mean Jarvi, I would agree for Crazee01 to start with that. |
This is the DG remaster, correct?
http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-The-Symphonies-Gundula-Janowitz/dp/B0000C03AH |
"The OP was looking for top notch recordings with good performances. For me, the analog DG recordings of the Berliner made in the Jesus Christus Kirche were good, but when they changed the recording venue and went to digital recordings forget it. Not so good. I found von Karajan's recordings made in the 60's very worthwhile, but those that came later were pretty forgetable."
I agree that the 60s cycle is superb, but sound problems plague the later cycles. What bothers me about DG recordings (CDs) is the period from late 70s thru the 80s when the engineers were experimenting with close-miking techniques, plus they did not adapt well to digital in the 80s. Seems like the Philips and Decca engineers were able to get it right.
DG had to correct many of the Karajan recordings. |
Brownsfan...that's very interesting and may account for the change in sound during that period. I just listened to Karajan 1963 and though lacking the detail of modern recordings, the overall balance is excellent. The later Beethoven and Schumann cycles suffer from a change in their recording technique. Sounds like over-miking and a lack of the venue ambiance. I know Karajan was very displeased and they were remixed and remastered.
And then there was DGs transition to digital...terrible. That's why I can't recommend the later Beethoven cycle as far as having good sonics.
BTW, I still order DG vinyl made in Germany/Holland and it is so well crafted. |
Goofyfoot...I wish I knew about Furtwängler on Orfeo D'Or before I purchased the EMI separates. thanks for the info. |
Goofyfoot, I think the later and current DG CDs are excellent quality and the Berliner Philharmonie concert hall clearly has good sonics.
I do know that during the mid 70s to mid 80s, Bernstein
(in Vienna) and Karajan were making very different demands on the DG engineers and the result in both cases were recordings resulting in a different sound compared to other DG recordings. So I don't know what to make of that.
As far as DG moving into digital, you make a very compelling case. What is very interesting to me is that Philips and Teldec (Decca + Telefunken) their German competitors made far superior recordings. |
Tostadosunidos, good question. The Box set was remastered and the result was the Karajan Gold set. All 9 symphonies released as separates. Although slightly bright, they lack the harshness of early DG digital. With my tube CDP, they sound open, well balanced and with first rate performances. Karajan is in top form IMO.
I think with a good CD or DAC they are worth buying, in fact, I play them often. |
Brownsfan, I need to make a point, then ask a question. The 1980s performances are inferior to the 1963, but the Karajan Gold remasters are an improvement over that awful boxed-set, plus I am taking into consideration that Karajan is 80 years old. I find them worth listening to, but it's not a whole-hearted endorsement.
That said, I'll ask you if the 1960s cycle has been remastered for Redbook? There have been so many reissues, I am confused. I own the 1963 red and gold box-set and for me it is the greatest interpretation of Beethoven, however the record quality is only marginally acceptable.
Can you provide further info on better quality 1960s CDs? |
Goofyfoot..there is a Karajan LvB cycle with the Philharmonia from 1950 on EMI.
Don't know much about it. |
Brownsfan, have u seen this 1963 set...
http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-9-Symphonies-Gundula-Janowitz/dp/B000001GBQ/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1361404079&sr=1-1&keywords=karajan+beethoven
Reading the user reviews makes it even more confusing as to the sound quality. I see there are now some hybrid SACDs of the remixed 1963. I'll be looking into those.
Goofyfoot...you are most welcome. I have many DDD cycles of Beethoven; like you I am interested in the interpretation.
But now I explore the early conductors such as Klemperer, Kleiber, Furtwängler, but it's a crapshoot finding good quality CDs and some of the mono to stereo transfers are dreadful. |
Almarg's post reminded me of the Chesky series of Beethoven;
Rene Leibowitz/Royal Philharmonic. These were recorded in 1960 and have superb sound thanks to Chesky's tube-based remastering system.
Terrific performances with the most analogue sound I've ever heard on a CD. Very detailed, great soundstaging, and with the ambiance of being seated in the concert hall.
(but more expensive than mass-produced disks, which is understandable). |
"Beethoven's metronome was indeed just fine, and he really did intend for the tempos to be that quick."
I would agree and being a student of Haydn, Beethoven's early symphonies would probably be at a similar quick tempo. |
Can somebody point me toward the best sounding remasters of Toscanini(Redbook)? I'm looking to try out a few single releases, not a box set. |
A point well taken Brownsfan, but I can hear a lot of Haydn in Beethoven's 1 and 2. |
thanks, Brownsfan... the reviewers on Amazon are also recommending the Red Seal. And since you are a gentleman and a scholar, I'll go for it. |
"This is no minueto!" That is very funny, Brownsfan. And thanks for your impression of the new Karajan.
I'm disappointed to hear that some of the muddiness is still there, but I'll be comparing it to the original 1963 CD release which sounds very muddy with some violins mixed in.
You know what I mean, there's a string section in the mix, but no separation.
Oh yeah, and I remembered the word to describe Karajan 1980s performances..."Passion." There is a lack of passion on Karajan's part. |
To Brownsfan, Goofyfoot, Lloydelee21, et al...
I finally received the Karajan 1962 SACD Remaster Set and my impression is very mixed. Now FYI, I am playing CD only and comparing this set to the original red and gold box set which I have owned for many years.
First order of business...OMG(as the kids say), Symphonies 3 and 4 are outstanding and were most certainly remastered on a different system, most likely by the Japanese as mentioned earlier.
Now the rest of the set... The cd is more open than 1962 with very organic sounding upper strings, woodwinds and brass, in fact I would say the entire set sounds more analogue-like than most CDs, especially a remaster. Much improved dynamics, but I am very disappointed with the lack of definition in the bass. Cellos and double bass mesh together and resemble the muddy low end of the early release. The attack of the timpani is only marginally better than the original.
A positive is the lack of compression; I don't mind some tape hiss if the result is increased clarity of the instruments as is the case here.
My first reaction was that for $72 US it should have sounded better, especially when using Nos. 3 and 4 as a reference. They show that it is possible to get such a high level of quality from some 50 year old tapes. But after I was finished with my critical listening, I started to appreciate the brilliance of the performances and Karajan at his best. I can now put my old Red and Gold box set in the closet and rediscover Karajan's Beethoven. |
Goofyfoot, do you know for certain that the LvB 3 and 4 included in the box set are Shm-CD remasters? I have not been able to find that info. I did find this Shm-CD...
http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Symphony-No-9-Chora-Shm-CD/dp/B000VZE08C/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=29XG41GAZ363K&coliid=I3SQ6DZRTLYN3U
As far as improving the low-end sound, I was hoping the Karajan would be as improved as the 1960s Bernstein/Mahler remasters (2008). Have u heard them... a fantastic restoration by the Sony engineers. |
Goofyfoot... I don't mean to beat the subject of Karajan to death, but I find it curious that Nos. 3 & 4 are so superior to the rest of the set and meanwhile there exists the Japanese SHM of 3 & 4. One would assume the DG engineers did not do the remastering of these tracks.
Also, I'll bet there are more Japanese Karajan 1962 to come, since there is now #9 for sale on Amazon. I would have thought their first release would be Symphony No. 5.
Oh well, just very disappointed in this Karajan set. |
I'll buy your explanation, Goofyfoot. It makes sense and would dispel my conspiracy theories.
' Reissue features the high-fidelity SHM-SACD format (fully compatible with standard SACD player, but it does not play on standard CD players).'
I saw that as well... thanks for that link. |
Brownsfan...sorry i missed your post. That reason makes the most sense. |
Well said, Brownsfan. That generation of brilliant recording engineers is long gone; and the music business along with it.
I have some very good late 1950s recordings from EMI. It's a shame that DG had a hold on many of the best artists.
|
Goofyfoot, you are correct that there is plenty of high quality music today, but look at the labels u have listed; they are all indies or niche labels.
I was referring to a time when the mega-labels were buying up the quality labels and their studios; Polygram buys Decca and DG, Universal buys Polygram, Sony buys Columbia, EMI, RCA and all it's classical entities, etc. There were budget cuts and elimination of classical labels and studios. Teldec is no more; it is Warner Music, who at least is still recording classical.
My point is that in the 40s, 50s to 60s, music was a craft with many technical advances and the engineer was the most important person in the room.
The labels you list are what I look for when buying new music and they have a commitment to excellence and have contributed to further advances in technology. So u are absolutely correct that there is high-end music being produced. My point is the business went thru a period of instability and I realize I was also sounding very nostalgic for the pioneers of music recording. |
"Plus the remastering and restoration releases from Andante, d'Orfeo, Testament, Music and Arts of America, and Pearl."
and I'm glad we have companies like these (also the Cheskys) to preserve the great music of the past. The major record labels either cut the classical budgets or shut down operations worldwide. That's one reason a company like Naxos is thriving.
I hope this makes sense of the earlier posts. |
"I just wish there could be more of an emphasis put on live recordings and damn the mistakes, that's just part of the process."
I love live recordings in a good concert hall, and not only that, I wish a classical work would be recorded continuously and not edited in post. I have a CD (forget which one) that lists something like : Mvmt 1... Thursday performance, Mvmt 2... Friday performance, Mvmt 3... Rehearsal.
That's IMO worse than the current Pop/Rock recording procedure of 1 musician at a time, then edit the band together, |
I would love to own a good R-R deck. From what I know of DG history, they and decca were tops for classical. They merged w. Polygram 1972; funny that they started to have problems in the mid 70s and then they had trouble adapting to Digital. From an insider I heard the engineers were unhappy with the company. So yes inconsistent |
Interesting comment, Learsfool and most appreciated. Do u have suggestions for web broadcasts of symphony and concerto? |
Brownsfan... so that's where you've been. Lucky you.
http://chicagoclassicalreview.com/2013/04/thielemann-batiashvili-and-dresden-orchestra-serve-up-memorable-afternoon-of-brahms/ |
"We got the Wagner as the encore."
He must really like Chicago.
(I sent u a PM). |
Lloydelee21, A very good choice....so different than the cycles we've been discussing. I won't spoil it for you, all I'll say is I like that he credits his musicians and the period instruments they play.
Will wait for your review. |
Agree, Lloydelee21. Very dynamic and very well paced. It's on L'Oiseau-Lyre, so naturally the sound is first-rate.
I wasn't sure about buying this HIP cycle; it's not widely reviewed, so I bought them all individually(used) and I'm glad I did. |
