Kmmcarty
Thanks for your post...interesting to read. I like the Gardiner Missa Solemnis...smaller ensemble (so smaller sound) but articulate reading imho and well recorded. |
Shouldn't HIP be HPP for historical performance practice? Then HIPP could be historical instrumentation performance practice. |
Lloydelee, yes the Gardiner Missa Solemnis is very rewarding. I've enjoyed it for many years. Another I've enjoyed over the years is the Karajan performance on DVD, live from the 1979 Easter Festival. I think this performance does a good job of capturing the spiritual impact of the piece, actually coming across more as a spiritual event than a performance, if that makes sense. I've never heard the 1935 Toscanini performance, which many consider the best recorded performance ever - although questionable sonically.
Any other rcommendations for best Missa Solemnis? |
This seems to be in competition with the Gardiner ;
Beethoven: Missa Solemnis / Herreweghe, Collegium Vocale Gent |
Thanks, Goofyfoot! Sounds promising from the snips i just heard. I have read some say they prefer the scale and magnificence of Klemperer...I respected, but preferred the slightly more contemplative, smaller, nuanced Gardiner. |
Loydelee, I just picked up the Gardiner Beethoven cycle. I haven't even been able to look at the discs yet to see if they're playable but I will give it a try once this cat finds a chair. Yes, surprisingly there wasn't a lot on offer when I checked to see which recommended recordings of the Missa Solemnis were still in print. I like the recording engineers at Harmonia Mundi so that recommendation jumped out at me when I saw it. The Solemnis is a monumental work but it would seem as if the record labels have shied away from it for some reason. I have a nice recording of Mozart's Missa Solemnis but that won't help any. Same text I would assume. |
Wow! That was quick! I really look forward to your thoughts on it! I nearly bought it myself, but in truth would love to hear your impressions first. I already have 3 full cycles...only wish to get Gardiner if really good and also really different. |
Lots of approvals for Gardiner, but I think for ME, the sound and the performance is not good. The 3,5,9, sysmphonies are the worst for me, but the others are better. |
Thanks, Stingreen...what Beethoven symphonies are your favorite? |
Sorry, a lot of things going on. Surprisingly, I found a Konica II rangefinder in excellent condition as someone was throwing it out. But anyway, I listened to Gardiner conducting the Beethoven 5th and have to say that either the hall and/or the miking is the culprit for criticisms surrounding this recording. It reminds me of when I saw Wozzeck at Avery Fisher Hall; the tympani heads sounded as if they were made out of paper and the woodwinds over powered the strings. From what I could tell with the Gardiner 5th, the brass was shrill and often overpowering, the oboes and bassoons could hardly be heard at all and the strings fluctuated between being dynamically balanced or washed out and behind the curtain. Staccato in the strings was for the most part unintelligible. What is most odd was the opening 4 note motive and that entire phrase by comparison to when it's repeated further along in the exposition. Why on earth is the introduction of that phrase softer with less emphasis than when it's played again later? I don't have the score on hand but the introduction should make a definite statement. The second movement was played and recorded beautifully. Any comments? |
Wow that was quick...may i interpret this is as an initial indication that this is NOT a must-have set? The opening criticisms did not seem minor (from an audiophile or pure music fan's standpoint)...obviously, you'll want to hear more of the set...nevertheless, not a particularly encouraging start.
Fair interpretation? Thanks for taking the time!!!!! |
Loydelee, what I've heard so far isn't sub standard by any stretch, in fact there are some beautiful moments but the things that stand out in my head are those things that I mentioned. I suppose that this is how I'm wired. Yes, of course I need to listen to the rest of the set. I now remember when this Gardiner set came out and I believe the Harnoncourt set came out right after. I ended up buying the Harnoncourt. Some nice things about this Gardiner set is the ensemble size in the sense that much of the instrumentation is revealing when its balanced. The musicians are capable and their tone is what I prefer. There is no falling out by strings, woodwinds etc... and there are no obvious blunders. |
The sound on the Gardiner recording is not the best, no. However, the interpretations/performances are fantastic. The set is definitely a must have in that regard - it is by far the best performances on period instruments - much of the playing is really incredible. |
Thanks Goofyfoot and Learsfool,
I am getting tempted now! I do like his Missa Solemnis. |
Does anyone know if the Gardiner Beethoven 5 CD Collectors Edition Archive re-release is any different from the original?
These look nice;
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=733459
Always interested in groups in or around my former short term town of Köln, De.
Chewwwws! |
I just listened to the Gardiner 'Eroica' and I must admit that it is a remarkable performance. I read some of Gardiner's comments online about the symphonies concerning authoritative sources and Beethoven's own markings and notes and the fact that throughout history, most of these documents were overlooked or ignored. I want to add also that most of the musicians available during Beethoven's lifetime were inconsistent when it came to their levels of technique and musicianship and that additional instrumentalists could be added to or taken away from a performance based on a performers ability. Adding in parts was often an undertaking that was done by the orchestra director. So, the hard and fast rules that we observe today were not really understood in either the 18th or the 19th century. |
Thank you! I have read somewhere a strong preference for
Gardiner over the Academy of Ancient Music Beethoven Symphonies. Same forMackerras whose historical Mozart symphonies are apparently great. |
Loydelee, I haven't had a chance yet to hear anything other than the 5th and the 3rd. If I'm not mistaken, the new reissued Gardiner Beethoven has been remastered. I've been listening to the original release but am now interested in the newer set. |
To Brownsfan, Goofyfoot, Lloydelee21, et al...
I finally received the Karajan 1962 SACD Remaster Set and my impression is very mixed. Now FYI, I am playing CD only and comparing this set to the original red and gold box set which I have owned for many years.
First order of business...OMG(as the kids say), Symphonies 3 and 4 are outstanding and were most certainly remastered on a different system, most likely by the Japanese as mentioned earlier.
Now the rest of the set... The cd is more open than 1962 with very organic sounding upper strings, woodwinds and brass, in fact I would say the entire set sounds more analogue-like than most CDs, especially a remaster. Much improved dynamics, but I am very disappointed with the lack of definition in the bass. Cellos and double bass mesh together and resemble the muddy low end of the early release. The attack of the timpani is only marginally better than the original.
A positive is the lack of compression; I don't mind some tape hiss if the result is increased clarity of the instruments as is the case here.
My first reaction was that for $72 US it should have sounded better, especially when using Nos. 3 and 4 as a reference. They show that it is possible to get such a high level of quality from some 50 year old tapes. But after I was finished with my critical listening, I started to appreciate the brilliance of the performances and Karajan at his best. I can now put my old Red and Gold box set in the closet and rediscover Karajan's Beethoven. |
Lowrider, as I said earlier, this is more about artistic merit than sonics. The 3rd and 4th are stunning in terms of recording quality. This is my favorite 7th, just wish they could have improved the sonics. |
It certainly seems that the Japanese remasters, especially sacds (e.g. HvK LvB 3), are superior to most others. After all, they have the largest per capita classical music audience of any country, and the technology as well. |
Thanks Lowrider, I may eventually purchase the Japanese remaster of Karajan's 3 and 4 but will look around some to see if I can get it for less than $60.00. The point that was made about the double basses is consistent with some of the older recordings, even the Gardiner Beethoven that I've heard so far. I'm assuming that the muddy lower registers are do to the fact that lower frequencies travel more slowly and that this has been an issue for engineers, however the Helmut Walcha recordings are totally balanced as well as many other earlier recordings so it's inconsistent as well as puzzling. |
Goofyfoot, do you know for certain that the LvB 3 and 4 included in the box set are Shm-CD remasters? I have not been able to find that info. I did find this Shm-CD...
http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Symphony-No-9-Chora-Shm-CD/dp/B000VZE08C/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=29XG41GAZ363K&coliid=I3SQ6DZRTLYN3U
As far as improving the low-end sound, I was hoping the Karajan would be as improved as the 1960s Bernstein/Mahler remasters (2008). Have u heard them... a fantastic restoration by the Sony engineers. |
Hi Lowrider, I have not yet listened to the Bernstein Mahler remasters. However, if I were looking for a gold standard set of Bernstein recordings, then his Mahler would be it.
The Karajan 3 and 4 remaster that I mentioned is a Japanese import and it's not included with the other Beethoven recordings. I could only find it on the Acoustic Sounds website;
http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/75807/Herbert_von_Karajan-Beethoven_Symphonies_Nos_3__4-SHM_Single_Layer_SACDs
I just listened to the Gardiner Beethoven 7th and I have to say that as with the 3rd, the phrasing and emphasis between the instrumental sections is what stands out as uniquely exceptional. Also, his attention to dynamics is most obvious once he has gotten through part of the final movement. I would hope however that DG Archiv effectively remastered the most recent release as there are notable places throughout the CD's that appear inconsistent to the overall sound. If so, that would make this cycle even more appealing. |
Hi Goofyfoot. For Mahler, the DG remastering of Bernstein's cycle is superb. I have Boxes I and II, and not III, because the eighth is my least favorite and it is an older recording, and this version of the ninth is awful.
I purchased Lenny's ninth with the BPO separately, which is wonderful. |
Goofyfoot... I don't mean to beat the subject of Karajan to death, but I find it curious that Nos. 3 & 4 are so superior to the rest of the set and meanwhile there exists the Japanese SHM of 3 & 4. One would assume the DG engineers did not do the remastering of these tracks.
Also, I'll bet there are more Japanese Karajan 1962 to come, since there is now #9 for sale on Amazon. I would have thought their first release would be Symphony No. 5.
Oh well, just very disappointed in this Karajan set. |
Lowrider, my intuition tells me that the 3rd and 4th offer superior master recordings when compared to the others and that is not only why they sound better in the the DG box set but it is also why they were chosen by the Japanese engineers for remastering. The Japanese labels aren't going to waste time with recordings they can't make sparkle because they have to pay too much for the tapes and rights.
Also, I wasn't aware of this online citation because it wasn't included in the Karajan Japanese Beethoven description but I found it elsewhere and I feel it to be relevant since most of us have standard CD players (including myself) and not the SACD type players.
' Reissue features the high-fidelity SHM-SACD format (fully compatible with standard SACD player, but it does not play on standard CD players).'
Too bad. |
Guys I suspect that the master tapes on 3&4 are superior to the rest. That is why the DG remasters sound so much better than the other symphonies, and why the Japanese selected the 3rd and 4th for their efforts as opposed to the remaining symphonies. |
I'll buy your explanation, Goofyfoot. It makes sense and would dispel my conspiracy theories.
' Reissue features the high-fidelity SHM-SACD format (fully compatible with standard SACD player, but it does not play on standard CD players).'
I saw that as well... thanks for that link. |
Brownsfan...sorry i missed your post. That reason makes the most sense. |
Lowrider, I have a Sony SACD of a 1957 Szell/Clevleand Orchestra recording of Don Juan, Death and Transfiguration, and Till Eulenspiegel that is just stunning. What was possible in the late 50s and 60's is just amazing. It is all about the master tapes.
DG is well known for superior art and bad technology. Its just a shame really. We have the same thing today. Pick up a few of the best Linn or Channel Classics recordings and it just floors you how good they are.
I think it is rather sad that so many of the major labels, Sony in particular, has chosen to abandon SACD.
The people who were responsible for the Szell recording left a legacy. The people who muddied up HvKs LvB darn near ruined one. A couple of recent releases by Telarc are just awful. Shamefully bad recordings. |
Well said, Brownsfan. That generation of brilliant recording engineers is long gone; and the music business along with it.
I have some very good late 1950s recordings from EMI. It's a shame that DG had a hold on many of the best artists.
|
Lowrider and Brownsfan, I truly respect your opinions but I cannot completely agree that great recordings are a thing of the past. I would even make the claim that while a large number of todays recordings do fall short of what should be considered the industry standard, that a larger percentage of todays recordings are superb when compared to the percentages in the past.
To name some of the labels that I believe offer excellence more often than not;
ECM New Series, Harmonia Mundi, Allia Vox, Hyperion, Musikproduction Dabringhaus und Grimm, Challenge Classics, Pentatone, BIS, OEHMS, OPUS 111, Naïve, Zig Zag, Praga, ERATO, Koch,Teldec Das Alte Werk and yes, even a good many from Deutsche Grammophone.
Also there are the budget labels like Naxos, Channel or Brilliant (compared to URANIA?).
Plus the remastering and restoration releases from Andante, d'Orfeo, Testament, Music and Arts of America, and Pearl.
I collect mono vinyl from the mid to late 1950's and there are some fine recordings in my record bin but the production costs alone during that era made the volume of recordings limited when compared by todays standards. That's why the American and British labels became iconic and European labels where esoteric even with serious collectors. |
Goofyfoot, you are correct that there is plenty of high quality music today, but look at the labels u have listed; they are all indies or niche labels.
I was referring to a time when the mega-labels were buying up the quality labels and their studios; Polygram buys Decca and DG, Universal buys Polygram, Sony buys Columbia, EMI, RCA and all it's classical entities, etc. There were budget cuts and elimination of classical labels and studios. Teldec is no more; it is Warner Music, who at least is still recording classical.
My point is that in the 40s, 50s to 60s, music was a craft with many technical advances and the engineer was the most important person in the room.
The labels you list are what I look for when buying new music and they have a commitment to excellence and have contributed to further advances in technology. So u are absolutely correct that there is high-end music being produced. My point is the business went thru a period of instability and I realize I was also sounding very nostalgic for the pioneers of music recording. |
"Plus the remastering and restoration releases from Andante, d'Orfeo, Testament, Music and Arts of America, and Pearl."
and I'm glad we have companies like these (also the Cheskys) to preserve the great music of the past. The major record labels either cut the classical budgets or shut down operations worldwide. That's one reason a company like Naxos is thriving.
I hope this makes sense of the earlier posts. |
OK, thanks for clarifying Lowrider, now I see your point. Also, these smaller niche labels like Harmonia Mundi are able to rise from the ashes and become a major player in the recording industry. Even though they have been around for a fairly long time, it wasn't until the affordability of the compact disk that they could be taken seriously. In a way, I view this as an improvement but there is nothing to be gained from RCA Victor's lack of involvement by comparison to its past and no, that's not being overly nostalgic. I just wish there could be more of an emphasis put on live recordings and damn the mistakes, that's just part of the process. |
"I just wish there could be more of an emphasis put on live recordings and damn the mistakes, that's just part of the process."
I love live recordings in a good concert hall, and not only that, I wish a classical work would be recorded continuously and not edited in post. I have a CD (forget which one) that lists something like : Mvmt 1... Thursday performance, Mvmt 2... Friday performance, Mvmt 3... Rehearsal.
That's IMO worse than the current Pop/Rock recording procedure of 1 musician at a time, then edit the band together, |
Thanks for all the feedback...great reading. I may try these Gardiner symphonies now. I do enjoy the Karajans...i will give another listen soon. |
Lowrider, well at least they're being honest, if that's of any consequence?
My local classical radio station (it's often silly, however it) features a live concert once a week from anywhere but typically from Western Europe and it makes me wish that I had a better Magnum Dynalab and a professional reel to reel so that I could tape them.
You know, I have a DG mono platter of Karajan conducting the Brahms 4th that I believe was recorded in 1966 and it sounds wonderful. It seems that in the big picture, that DG has a track record of being inconsistent, am I right to say that? One prime example would be the Anne Sophie Mutter recordings of the Mozart Violin Concertos on CD compared to the Concertos on DVD. The performances of both are wonderful but the DVD recording sounds thin and a little gritty in comparison to the CD's. Sorry but I didn't have any Beethoven examples. |
I would love to own a good R-R deck. From what I know of DG history, they and decca were tops for classical. They merged w. Polygram 1972; funny that they started to have problems in the mid 70s and then they had trouble adapting to Digital. From an insider I heard the engineers were unhappy with the company. So yes inconsistent |
Hi Lowrider, Goofyfoot, and anyone else discussing the state of recording today. One of you wrote: "I just wish there could be more of an emphasis put on live recordings and damn the mistakes, that's just part of the process."
Actually, this is exactly how the vast majority of orchestras do any recording at all anymore, at least the live part. About the only way my orchestra ever does any recording anymore is by releasing stuff from the live concerts, with just a very little editing done to them. Not from a patch session, either, the only material used is from the live performances. Then the recording is usually released only in the local area - no middle men. This is why you do not see very many out there. It is basically only one step up from the radio broadcasts of the concerts, and also without the compression, of course.
Some of the very biggest orchestras still make occasional recordings for the very big labels, but these are few and far between. Usually, orchestras use the process described above, and are essentially their own "label". It is all self-produced. They can usually be purchased on the orchestra's website, or locally, but are not otherwise available.
This method is far less expensive than the normal way, which is still used, and the advantage to folks like yourselves who wish that recordings were more live is that these basically are - as I said, not even one patch session, just the material from the live concerts, usually three in a weekend for most full-time orchestras. The only thing closer to a live recording, unless of course it actually is one, are the radio broadcasts. These are unedited, though the best parts of the weekend will be chosen. I serve on the committee in my orchestra that chooses what is broadcast from each symphonic weekend's program (for instance, it might be the Sunday overture, the Saturday first two movements of a concerto with the Sunday third movement, and for a four movement symphony you might get something from all three nights, whichever the committee feels were the best performances). So I would encourage those of you who want to listen to recordings that are almost live to search the web for radio broadcasts. |
Interesting comment, Learsfool and most appreciated. Do u have suggestions for web broadcasts of symphony and concerto? |
Much of what I hear on my radio are studio recordings, orchestral or otherwise.
All of the CSO recordings with Paavo Jarvi are studio recordings. Yes of course, by live I mean a top rate recording of one evening from start to finish. I find that my favorite recordings are the Orfeo d'Or remasters of the Salzburg Festivals ( the Clara Haskil is breathtaking and in mono). Always appreciate your sharing your knowledge Learsfool and Lowrider, etc... Any good orderly direction is also appreciated. |
Hi Lowrider, Goofyfoot - I would suggest that you simply visit the websites of orchestras that you like and see what is out there - they will have details on recordings for purchase, and also sometimes you can hear recent performances for a limited period of time. Some of these are free, some not. Most classical radio stations also regularly air broadcasts of recent concerts from a few different top orchestras. I am not very familiar with satellite radio, so I couldn't tell you how those classical stations work, but there may well be stuff available that way as well. But most regular radio stations stream on the internet, so you can always find the local classical station near an orchestra you like and check their broadcast schedules and listen that way. Typically, these broadcasts occur during the evenings, at or near what would be a regular concert hour. |
Learsfool, thanks for the input. I do listen to radio online, WDR 3, BBC Radio 3, France Musique. I've even written letters to them asking if they wouldn't expand their server space with memberships which could then allow members to listen at 1411 kbps instead of 320 kbps or less. The low resolution is the only thing that I don't like about audio streaming.
I occasionally look at a groups website but usually soloists and chamber groups. It hardly ever comes to mind to look at an orchestras website.
I've never tried Satellite Radio but it is available in an internet streaming format. |
Hi,
I listened to the Gardiner Beethoven 7th yesterday and was thoroughly pleased with the performance but not so much with the recording. It seems that with these recordings in general, that the lowest registers, i.e. the double basses, tend to suffer from anemia. The dynamics are not the same, detail is lost and the sound stage leaves some shallow muddiness that just appears as a quiet low drone. It's still worth having these performances but I would make sure to purchase the newer box set. |
As I think I mentioned much earlier in this thread, I have been watching the DVD's of Abbado's performances of the Beethoven symphony cycle that were recorded about 10 years ago, with the Berlin Philharmonic. About 2/3 of the personnel of that orchestra changed under Abbado, and he made that group what it is right now, one of the top handful of orchestras in the world. All of those performances are incredible, and there is a nice interview with Abbado about both Beethoven (about which I agree with basically ever word he says) and his time in Berlin in general. Very highly recommended, especially for the performances. The blend and transparency he achieves with the Berliners is amazing. For me, there is not a better living conductor, and would be my first choice to get to work with at some point on the list of those I have not been able to in my career. |
Sir Colin Davis just passed at 85. If I'm not mistaken, I remember his recordings with the Cleveland. Could have been the Egmont Overture. I'm amazed that conductors of this era are able to continue, Claudio Abbado being among them. |
Can we go back to Brahms for a second? Yesterday I made the trip to Chicago to hear Thielemann/Dresden State Orchestra do the Brahms 4. Wow, that was some kind of Brahms. Best Brahms 4 I ever heard. Well worth 7 hours of driving and a $30 parking bill. Anyone else make the concert?
I'm going to have to rethink my preference for Italian conductors and Brahms. |
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B006VOWTZI/ref=as_li_tf_til?tag=clacdrev-20&camp=14573&creative=327641&linkCode=as1&creativeASIN=B006VOWTZI&adid=073WMM6BMAN4D3Q1YAXN&&ref-refURL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.classical-cd-reviews.com%2F2012%2F06%2Fbrahms-symphonies-andrew-manze.html |
