Congrats, Merlinus! I was pretty impressed by the 'regular remastered hybrid SACD set' of his 9 symphonies from the '63 era. Enjoy! I admit i listen to von Karajan the most for all but the 9th where i enjoy Harnancourts' version quite a lot. |
I recently acquired the Japanese SACD of HvK 1962 LvB No. 3, and was blown away by the recording, both SQ and performance.
Easily the best Eroica I have ever heard. |
Thanks Oldears...will get around to listening to them at some point. I have full sets from Furtwangler (tried to get each individual of the most recommended from his various symphonies...mainly during WWII but also from Vienna in early '50s), von Karajan '63 (Remastered), and Harnancourt. |
I like the DSD version. The smaller ensemble is like the "sports car" version of Beethoven with better acceleration and handling, not so ponderous.
But, I checked the 44.1/16b layer and it is not as smooth and spacious. YMMV |
I have heard good things about the Paavo Jarvi Beethoven symphonies...how good is the recording/mastering? Sounds promising... |
You may wish to try the Beethoven cycle on Sony/DG with Paavo Jarvi and the Deutsche Kammerphilharmonie Bremen. This are hybrid SACDs recorded in DSD, recently reviewed in the absolute sound issue 226. This is a chamber sized orchestra, maybe not to everyone's taste, but I like the Symph 6/2 disc I found locally. |
Thanks, Rok2id and Goofyfoot for confirmation. Will get the 2010 set for such a good price. |
Thanks, Goofyfoot! Good to know...seems like Penguin stays here and i will keep an eye out for Schwann! |
K330, if you look at the release dates, one is from 1994 and the other is from 2010. Essentially this means that the earlier set is the original release and is currently out of print. The two should however sound the same as it doesn't appear as if any remastering was done to the 2010 release. You may find however that the earlier box set includes a booklet which isn't included in the later reissue. |
http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-9-Symphonies-Luba-Orgonasova/dp/B0000057EO
I own this set. This one has 6 discs. The sixth disc is an interview with Gardiner. I don't think that would account for the price increase. He wasn't that profound! I think it's just 'these sellers' cashing in.
Cheers |
Listened to Gardiner's Symphony 9 and 1 on Youtube and really like it. Wonder if the following two sets are the same and why one is so much cheaper ? thanks
http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-The-Symphonies-Ludwig-van/dp/B0033QC0WE/ref=pd_sim_m_2
http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-9-Symphonies-Luba-Orgonasova/dp/B0000057EO |
Hi Lloydelee,
I find the Penguin Guide to be a bit conservative though it is consistent. Do you remember the Schwann Catalogue for classical recordings? I really liked that catalogue and I was nearly devastated when it stopped publication because I would look through each quarterly issue backwards and forwards before placing an order with the local record store. The advantage that the Pinguin had over the Schwann would be that the Pinguin reviews and rates its CD's. The advantage that the Schwann had over the Pinguin is that it listed everything that was in print, therefore making the Pinguin catalogue seemingly minuscule by comparison.
The point that I'm driving at with this comparison between the Schwann and Pinguin is that if the Pinguin were to comprehensively list and review all of the excellent recorded performances available, then it would end up being the size of six unabridged dictionaries. Consequentially my collection is less mainstream in nature from that of the Pinguin entries and recently I've been relying on the reviews in Gramophone, Fanfare, etc... before making a purchase.
The Pinguin however is consistently dependable if there is a work that you aren't familiar with. Lastly, the Pinguin seems to choose most of its CD's from the corporate labels and less from the boutique labels but admittedly I have not seen its recent edition. |
Hey GFoot,
What is your view on Penguin Guide to Classical? I have enjoyed going thru mine and have bought many based on their recommendation...over time, i have expanded by buying additional ones not included there, and in a few cases disagreed. But generally been happy with their recommendations. Your thoughts welcome! |
Rok2id,
I rarely take reviews on Amazon seriously though admittedly some are substantial. I often post on and read from the Gramophone website and as much as I respect that magazine and its staff, I need to put things from Gramophone in there proper context.
Honestly, I've found the help at the Harmonia Mundi store at Opera in Paris to be the most helpful and second to that, the SATURN help in Köln. As for internet selection and reviews, I mostly value ArkivMusic.com.
It has taken me years to know where and how to get information and when or when not to take it too seriously. However of all of the sources that I value the most, I would have to credit my lesson instructors, music theory teachers, music history teachers and/or conservatory professors in general, as they have given me the ability to think for myself. |
Brownsfan,
certainly these engineers who are remastering in the SHM format have little time 'for wasting where with fools' as I would guess that there's an abundance of good material for them to choose from. They seemingly aren't dumb enough to release something that won't live up to that $60.00 a disc price tag. I don't know what the Japanese labels are required to pay for the original tapes and for the rights to release the material but I would assume that it isn't cheap and so it's a professional decision to limit what they're willing to work with.
The artistic merit alone is enough reason for someone interested in the art of classical music performance to purchase the entire set. For example, I have William Backhaus remasters from around 1918 including the first full recording of the Grieg piano concerto and I couldn't begin to tell you how much I value those CD's.
The DG 3 and 4 sound like they shine in the face of what was initially a difficult set of conditions. After what you've told me however, I would probably pass on the recent box set only because I have other recording antiquities that I am mildly more interested in but I would certainly treasure a good 3rd and 4th be it either on the DG label or on the Japanese label.
As far as forking over cash on CD's, the reality sometimes creeps in when I'm looking at a slow work month and the bills are piling up. This is where I am now, so internet window shopping has become a regular past time. I am rather curious however why these Japanese label reissues are so limited with respect to which websites will even make them available. |
as an aside, has anyone noticed that on Amazon, on EVERY recording of LvB symphonies, at least ONE reviewer will say it's the best Ever!! :)
Cheers |
Goofyfoot, It is a real dilemma. Here I sit, with my recently purchased DG SACD remasters, for the most part thrilled with the artistic merit, but recognizing that the recordings leave much to be desired. Certainly, they aren't bad at all for 1962 vintage recordings, --but, well, its still mostly about the artistic merit. I've heard 1-8 now, and guess what? The 3rd and 4th rise well above the rest with respect to recording quality. The very ones that are offered as SHM remasters. What to do?
Is it possible that the SHM reputation is based on astute cherry picking, or are they going to take this already excellent DG effort on the 3rd and 4th to a new level.
Apparently, the Universal Japan remasters of the Kempe Strauss are available, and expensive. Some of the reviews on other releases in the Universal Japan EMI catalogue have not been favorable. These are not SHM recordings. Again, what to do?
Rok2id, if you go to the acoustic sounds website, any of the SHM offerings give a brief description. That would be the sum total of what I know. |
That's a good question Rok2id. Brownsfan would you, or anyone else for that matter, happen to know the idiosyncrasies of the differing media formats concerning 'SHM', SACD, Redbook. etc...? It seems like these catalogue descriptions might confuse people into thinking that they are getting more of something or may be getting something different from what is actually in the CD. |
Please discuss SHM-SACD.
Cheers |
Brownsfan, I assume that it is believed by most but certainly not all that the SHM SACD hybrids offer the best remixing and remastering available. That appears to be the competition for these larger labels like DG. Why DG can't step up their game and surpass what the Japanese are doing is puzzling. Anyway, I'm tempted to make the Japanese HvK Beethoven purchase once I have the extra $60.00 to spend. Also the Brahms and Sibelius if I find the Beethoven is worth the cost. |
Goofyfoot, With the first dozen measures of the DG Eroica, the thought came to mind that the Japanese cherry picked the 3rd. The 3rd and 4th are the only ones I see available in the Japanese remasters. On the other hand, if the Japanese were able to remove just a little more of the grunge that I still hear in the DG, then it may be worth $50. This performance is one for the ages. The SHM process offers some advantages that are not available to a standard hybrid SACD, so there could be improvements due to that apart differences in how the remasterings may have been done. I think I am in the process of talking myself into trying one of the Japanese remasters. Not quite there yet, but getting close. |
Brownsfan, I didn't realize that these DG remasters were SACD hybrids. Just to recapitulate our earlier discussion; if DG allocates all of this time and money towards remastering the Von Karajan, then wouldn't one expect that they'd rival their Japanese competitors? In other words, after all of this, if I were to compare both side by side and find that the Japanese remasters were superior to the DG, then I would just have to shake my head and wonder. |
Update on the DG SACD 1963 Herbert von Karajan recordings. Tonight I listened to the Eroica. I was stunned. Just stunned, by how much better the recording quality was from the 1, 2, 7, & 8. Yes, there was still a little grunge here and there, but it was really good. Lower strings were not at all tubby or bloated. Horns were glorious. Violins were satisfactory. And this, my friends, is the best Eroica I have heard. I had forgotten how good this was in the 35 years since I last heard it.
Now I know why I loved HvK so much in my youth and wandered away as he aged. Stay tuned, perhaps tomorrow night I will do the 4th or the 5th. |
Hey Lowrider,
look forward to your impressions of the Karajan '63 original CD vs the Remaster. I felt the Remasters were definitely better...no, not the best remaster/CD i have by some margin. Its not a MA Recordings or even an FIM remaster of an older recording...but it is markedly superior to the original CD which felt 'stereotypically' thin in comparison. one man's experience. |
"This is no minueto!" That is very funny, Brownsfan. And thanks for your impression of the new Karajan.
I'm disappointed to hear that some of the muddiness is still there, but I'll be comparing it to the original 1963 CD release which sounds very muddy with some violins mixed in.
You know what I mean, there's a string section in the mix, but no separation.
Oh yeah, and I remembered the word to describe Karajan 1980s performances..."Passion." There is a lack of passion on Karajan's part. |
Goofyfoot, Steely is not a problem on the DG remasters based on what I have heard so far. At least not steely in a digital steely sense. I think you really have to buy this stricktly on artistic merit. That said, I'm sure the remastering helped some. |
Brownsfan, what comes to mind are the Rudy Van Gelder recordings of the late 1950's and early 1960's. I bought a few Analogue Production remasters thinking that I would be front and center at a live event, no way. We've gotten spoiled over the years, especially us classical music fans given the level of recording quality that is out there today. I know exactly what you mean by the sonic comparison to a cartridge upgrade. There is apparently surface noise in the tapes and that the bottom end is washed out. I'm guessing that it may have a somewhat steely sound. These engineers were probably dealing with a lot of reverberation.
Learsfool, I run hot and cold with Mr. Abbado. His Brahms violin concerto with Gil Shaham and the Berlin is one of the best. However, I'd favor Pierre Boulez as a conductor as well as some other not so obvious choices. |
Goofyfoot, I would probably be most likely to spring the money for the 7th, although I had a deep love for HVKs 3rd as well. I would take them one at a time, depending on how they sound.
The best I can describe the DG remasters is like when you first began to think about getting a replacement stylus. There is substantial grunge in the sound. There is definitely room for improvement. The sound quality was quite uniform in the symphonies I heard last night. |
Thanks Brownsfan, I'm glad you shared. Yes, the Japanese like raising the bar. I even saw a Japanese remaster of a CD just originally released in 2007, Keith Jarrett's 'Inside Out' and it's on ECM. In actuality 1963 was a pretty long time ago and stereo recordings were just gaining popularity even though the first stereo taping was recorded in 1943 ( of the Cincinnati ).
Do you happen to know if these stereo recordings were recorded side by side in mono? If so, it would be interesting to compare the two that way. Nevertheless, you've got yourself audible copies of some of the best von Karajan recordings. I would also like to hear your take on a Japanese remaster, maybe the 'Eroica'? Happy listening! |
Back to Beethoven - I am about halfway through watching those DVDs I mentioned of Claudio Abbado conducting the Berlin Phil in Rome in 2001. Unbelievable performances - if you have never heard them, you owe it to yourself to do so. Beethoven as it should be played. |
Lowrider, Goofyfoot, and all interested in the remastered 63 von Karajan set.
It arrived today, and I started off with the 7th and 8th, both of which I owned and loved on vinyl, then went to the 1st and 2nd. In terms of the sound, it is well, a bit of a mixed bag. You get the nice ambience of the Jesus Christus Kirche, and the upper strings are fairly sweet. The lower strings tend to be a bit muddy at times, and the tympani lacks the sharp attack and proper decay for which one might hope. You will not be fooled into thinking this is a 2013 Linn release.
BUT---its HvK in his prime. The 7th and 8th are even better than I had remembered. His approach on the 1st is a little to much Haydn and too little LvB for my taste, but still worthwhile. I remember Lennie Bernstein's remark "This is no minueto!" and I think he was dead right.
Back in the day I owned the LvB 3rd, 5th, 6 th, 7th, 8th and 9th from the 63 HvK cycle. This may be enough of a teaser to get me to try one of the Japanese remasters. |
Learsfool,
the Rene Jacobs operas are excellent and they feature the Concerto Köln in cooperation with WDR 3. There is also a 'Saul' by Georg Friedrich Haedel and it's superb. The Don Giovanni is with the Freiburg Baroque Orchestra and it's also available on Blue Ray or DVD. If my memory doesn't fail me, they were all recorded live for radio broadcast.
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/albumList.jsp?name_id1=8429&name_role1=1&name_id2=13576&name_role2=3&bcorder=31
Honestly, I couldn't give you a higher recommendation from my collection than the Rene Jacobs recordings.They may not be to everyones taste but the quality of these discs are irrefutable. As for the Krips Don Giovanni, it's of course a classic. I don't own the Decca CD,
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=213511
I've not heard the Gardiner but his Figaro DVD looks enticing. |
Hi Goofyfoot - I used to have a copy of that Glyndebourne one, but I didn't care for it as much as those others I mentioned, so I sold it. Haven't heard the Rene Jacobs. For the period instrument Mozart, I really like Gardiner, though I think I only have a copy of his Magic Flute, not any of the other operas. |
Learsfool, I apologize but I made an error, I meant to say the Vienna State Opera Chorus. I have the Josef Krips, Don Giovanni on vinyl. It's an 8 sided London mono box set which was given to me. I just wish that I had a better mono cartridge since all of the vinyl that I own is in mono. The other complete Don Giovanni that I have is the Glyndebourne Festival Opera Company with Fritz Busch as conductor on RCA Victor but admittedly its condition is somewhat sketchy so it sits in the misfit bin. I would certainly recommend the Josef Krips recording. I have a Rene Jacobs Le Nozze di Figaro on Harmonia Mundi which is a period performance and I would way recommend that also. |
Now I am very curious about that Krips Don Giovanni recording. Krips is an interesting conductor. I have Siepe singing the Don on the Leinsdorf recording, which is nice, and I also like that they recorded all of the opera, even the numbers that are almost always cut in the last act. The best Don Giovanni, though, is Giulini's. Absolutely fantastic, as is his Figaro. By the way, the Vienna Philharmonic and the Vienna State Opera Orchestra are one and the same ensemble - always have been. |
Brownsfan, to refresh your memory, Josef Krips studied with Felix Weingartner in Vienna and became principle conductor of the Vienna Philharmonic before he was exiled out of Austria.
I'm guessing that may have been around 1948 when that Krips Schubert symphony was recorded. Also, the unfinished Mozart Requiem is beautiful, possibly my favorite. His Don Giovanni with the Vienna Philharmonic and Vienna State Opera Orchestra is possibly thought to be his greatest recording achievement. Cesare Siepe is Don Giovanni and a young Lisa Della Casa plays Donna Elvira. |
Goofyfoot, Krips---wow, that is a name I haven;t heard for years! Back in the day, I remember having had one Krips recording. I think it may have been Schubert. That is the sum total of my experience and memory. Too many tumbleweeds in the great synaptic expanse, I fear. |
Lowrider, Brownsfan, I dare make mention of Josef Krips. Though not in anyway a household name such as von Karajan, a very intelligent and musical conductor. Of course it would be impossible to name everyone but he made some outstanding recordings. WWII was without question the cause for his tumultuous career. Any comments? |
I had the 4th, 5th and 6th symphonies of Tchaikovsky on CD by DG. One of the pieces (I confess that I can't remember which one now) sounded like the trumpets were recorded in a studio and poorly mixed in. It just sounded unnatural and improperly balanced. Despite Ted Libbey recommending this CD, I was more than happy to give it away and find something else.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who didn't like a DG CD. |
thanks, Brownsfan... the reviewers on Amazon are also recommending the Red Seal. And since you are a gentleman and a scholar, I'll go for it. |
Lowrider, I can't offer an opinion on the best sounding Toscanini. What I can tell you is that the RCA red seals I have of the Beethoven and Brahms symphonies are pretty decent. They have been remastered and are much better than the same recordings (vinyl) I had in the late 60's early 70's. You can get the 9 Beethoven symphonies for about $20 on Amazon now. That might be a good place to start. I don't own any of the Testament recordings or EMI's. |
Learsfool, I've often seen the CSO, especially when Paavo Jarvi was director. I studied a bit of set design at CCM so I gravitate towards the theatre in that way. Also, my late Aunt Marcia Lewis did Broadway shows in NYC from the early 1960's until her final run as Mama Morton in Chicago. She played beside Bebe Neuwirth in that cast. |
Hi Tostadosunidos - love that moniker, by the way - yes, I would agree with the Hummel/Clementi influences, too, though this would come more from performing their music than actual compositional ideas - Beethoven was far better than either of them as a writer, for sure.
Goofyfoot - that's an interesting background. Cincinnati has a very good orchestra, I assume you attend their concerts regularly. I have been reading a fair amount about aesthetics lately myself. I took a couple of art history courses in college, but my interests outside of music tend more to drama and literature in general, poetry as well. As you can guess from my moniker, Shakespeare has been a big study of mine. |
Goofyfoot...wow a lots happened on this thread in the last couple of days! sorry - i do not know much about the Japanese and 192khz question you asked. apologies.
However, if you do find out...please let us know! Very interested.
And yes, generally with the other person who posted about the Furtwanger Tahra SACD...probably better than earlier remasterings...but 'it is what it is'. |
Thanks Learsfool, you have a more expansive knowledge about music history then I do, though I do have a liberal arts education in music. I hear a lot of music in Cincinnati (for it being a small city) and seeing that my grandparents were affiliated with the Cincinnati College of Music, I feel a natural attachment to the College Conservatory of Music at the University of Cincinnati. I graduated from the College of Design, Architecture, Art and Planning, at the University of Cincinnati and as a visual artist, I bridge the various arts disciplines in aesthetic terms. Though we come from different professions, we probably share more similarities than we do differences. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to share and learn. |
Hi Goofyfoot - my first thought about your post is to say that to a musician, the fact of performance practices being handed down from teacher to student goes without saying, though I guess that is maybe not so obvious to a layman, so it is good you point it out. However, one caveat with it - you remember the elementary school exercise where the teacher whispers a sentence to one student, who in turn whispers it to the next, etc., and even if it is a relatively small number of students, the last one who speaks the sentence aloud finds that it is often completely different from what the teacher had said in the first place? This most definitely applies to this conversation.
And it's interesting that you use the Walter/Mahler example - many felt at the time that Walter did not take the same tempos as Mahler, that others interpreted his music quite a bit better (Richard Strauss, for instance, even though he didn't particularly care for Mahler's music), and I personally have never found Walter's recorded Mahler interpretations to be particularly good, either. Those were done, of course, long after Mahler's death, and even longer after the two actually worked together. Just because someone knew someone very well and worked with him does not necessarily mean that they actually do things the same way, even if they think they do. Some musicians, however, do really like Walter's recorded Mahler interpretations quite a bit.
Mahler himself was quite famous for making alterations to Beethoven's scores, to account for the increased size of string sections and the differences already occurring in the instruments themselves. Now, however, brass instruments in particular are even bigger and heavier than in Mahler's day, and there is actually starting to be a reaction against this now - many younger brass professionals are switching to smaller, lighter instruments, though they still play them much louder in general than even fifty years ago.
Another very important thing to note about the development of conductors - in the old days, they all learned in opera houses that existed in basically every German town. I think there were almost 70 opera houses in Germany in the days when Strauss, Mahler, Walter, Szell, Furtwangler and all those other guys were coming up. There were plenty of places for them to learn their trade and experiment. Young conductors today simply do not have this available to them, even in Europe. Young conductors hardly ever get to be front of an orchestra and actually practice conducting. The loss of all these different opera houses and orchestras that used to exist has had a huge effect on the training and experience a young conductor can receive now as opposed to them. This accounts for the general decline in the level of many young conductors. There are still some coming up, but in general there has been a huge decline in the number of "world class" conductors.
As to your comments on the recording industry, yes it has totally changed how music is learned and raised the standards of live performance to almost ridiculous levels. It is a very telling fact that Strauss and others who were around at the beginning of the sound recording era actually hated the idea. Recordings have really driven the quest for technical perfection in performance to ridiculous levels - kids coming out of the top music schools nowadays are absurdly good players of their instruments, even more so than when I was in school in the late 80's/early 90s. However, there has been a corresponding decline in their knowledge of other aspects of music besides the technical playing of their instrument. They can play anything, but meanwhile everyone is starting to sound more and more the same, and regional differences in sound are beginning to disappear. It is a very sad thing.
And as for the recording process itself - audiophiles do not like to hear this, but it really is true that the musicians and conductors have almost zero control anymore over that process. With the digital technology they have now, and the ability to edit pretty much anything they want however they want, recordings are almost completely "fake" now, especially if we are talking about electronically produced popular music. But even in the classical world, I have participated in recording sessions where take after take was done that sounded like dog crap. However, the extremely heavily edited final product sounds just fine, though it bears almost no resemblance to what actually happened. All commercial recording is like this now. It bears almost zero resemblance to reality. About the only recordings that are close to "real" in this sense are the live radio broadcasts that orchestras do. Though even these, unless they are truly being aired live as the performance is happening, are often chosen from all the performances of the concert in question. I happen to serve on the musician committee that helps determine what is broadcast from our classical concerts in my orchestra. It might be the overture from Saturday, the first two movements of the concerto from Sunday but the last movement from Saturday, etc. That's about as close to "live" as you can get nowadays, unless you know you are listening to an actual live broadcast. OK, I have once again posted way more than I meant too, so I'll shut up now. |
Learsfool, I agree--there is usually some gray area regarding tempo (without betraying the original intent). Also agreement regarding Haydn influence on LVB and that the Rosen book is worth checking out. Thanks for the good post.
For the record, one can hear Hummel and Clementi as well in Beethoven, but he never studied with them (well, that I know of).
|
Learsfoot, you are right on the mark here and I wouldn't try refuting anything which you've just said. Keep in mind as well while concerning performance practice that Vienna was the mecca for music because composers, conductors, musicians, etc.... were in constant contact with one another and together they invented what is now the Viennese School. The point here is that more performance practice has been handed down by word of mouth than usually realized. Hence study with a great conductor, then use that lens of perspective when pulling briefs off of the library shelves.
With the invention of electronic communications, these sources of information travelled further and faster so that Bartok was able to record Hungarian folk melodies which in a way negates the need for him to notate anything. The practice of improvisation varied greatly in the jazz world and very little of it was written in a formal sense. So you bring up several good points but the one that speaks to me the most (besides Hindemith) is that many conductors from the golden era tended to follow in lock step with one another regarding tempo. I really find this to be unquestionable however as we take a distance from what was going on then, it's clear to acknowledge the overall impact that both recordings and film had on the practices of the time and I wouldn't hesitate to assume that the record companies had as much of an influence on the outcomes as did the artists themselves. I'm not suggesting that conductors were being compromised but if Mahler suggested to Walter to shave off two minutes from a scherzo to achieve a particular quality and it became effective, then consumers of that recording began to set trends. Lastly, composers, conductors and musicians are influenced by popular recordings just as any other fan would be. Would you not say that this point of view would then explain some of the mentioned commonalities and conformities of the past? |
Hello gentlemen (apologies to any ladies reading, but none of you have posted in this particular thread, if memory serves).
Goofyfoot - of course, tempi are meant to be flexible - the vast majority of music is almost never metronomic all the way through. Tempo markings are basic guidelines. That said, each has its generally acceptable range, and there are still a great many conductors who fall out of this range for the Andante marking specifically, especially in Classical era music, but also some Romantic music as well. The guys in the 40's and 50's tend to do this. If you like that, fine, many people do. And some of those composers do make those slower tempi work. This, however, is a very difficult thing to do, in very large part because it goes against the grain of the composer's assumptions/intentions. I personally think it is a very unfortunate thing that those type of interpretations prevailed in what was the so-called Golden Age of classical music recordings in the 50's and 60's.
Another clarification I want to make - I do not necessarily prefer original instruments, even for Baroque music. I am fascinated by them, and have many times considered taking up the natural horn, but have never pulled the trigger. However, I believe it is possible to perform 18th century works just fine on modern instruments. You just need to reduce the size of the orchestra and play in a lighter style, and the correct style/tempi is a big part of it too.
There are two very large schools of thought on performing/interpreting the works of the great composers of the past (with of course many subdivisions of both). One is that one should always remain faithful to what are obviously the composer's artistic intentions (original instrument groups would be an extreme of this school). The other would be those who think that the masterworks must be kept "fresh" or "current" by re-inventing the wheel with them, musically-speaking, the attention being then much more centered on the performer than the composer. A great many soloists have this latter approach, often making a mockery of what is actually on the page. Of course, many Romantic showpieces are supposed to be done this way, within reason, so I'm not really talking about that. But there are many conductors that think they have to put their personal stamp on a masterwork by doing something strange or unusual or original, even if it doesn't actually make any sense and is obviously contrary to the composer's markings.
It should be pretty obvious that I am generally in the former camp. There is plenty of room for individual expression within the great masterworks without resorting to wholesale changes. As a performer, I always try to keep the composer's intention uppermost.
That said, there are also cases where the composer's markings are routinely changed because something else works better. This is often the case, for instance, in the works of Paul Hindemith. Generally speaking, his metronome marking suggestions are incredibly slow, and almost everyone, himself included, actually went quite a bit faster in many cases. Another example - in the 18th century, there aren't very many expressive markings at all in the scores. Even fundamental things like dynamics and articulation are often left up to the performer, again within reason, and assuming you are staying within certain stylistic guidelines.
And yes, Beethoven was very heavily influenced by Haydn. Not necessarily the actual lessons he had with him, those were largely unproductive, but through the study of his scores and the playing through and performing of his music. For those of you with a better knowledge of music, one of the best books I have ever read is by the very recently deceased pianist/scholar Charles Rosen, called The Classical Style, I believe. Unfortunately, it does require a basic knowledge of music theory to follow the discussions - it is not really a book for the layman. But if you have some basic knowledge of music theory, I highly recommend it. OK, I'll shut up now. |
A point well taken Brownsfan, but I can hear a lot of Haydn in Beethoven's 1 and 2. |
