The amps are BAT VK6200 and are rated at 200wpc. |
Avent91....I just purchased two Classe 700 WPC mono blocks. Hopefully this can rule out amplification as the potential problem. The amps will be here in about two weeks or so. I also have new cables and I/C on the way.I will post the results here. I am not familiar with your amps. How powerful are they? |
Please let me know if you find a solution to your problem. I am currently biamping Nautilus 800s with VK6200 amps and I am also very dissappointed with the low end. |
IMO, a speaker of this sophistication should be carefully positioned using an SPL meter and 1/3 octave tones.
Do this before jumping to the conclusion that your $20,000 loudspeaker is not reproducing bass as accurately as a $3000 speaker.
"Accurate" may mean less, not more bass.
In my experience, bass "slam" is often more substantial from systems that sound somewhat less full-bodied in the low end.
ie: less apparent bass will often sound tighter and more realistic.
Speakers that suffer from doubling effects will have a strong bass response, but will lack low frequency definition.
It's not surprising that the 9NT with it's tiny, wildly flopping woofers tends to sound "bassier" than the more controlled woofers in the 800N. (I own the 9NT and have them rolled-off at 50hz, and paired with a good sub.)
I'm fairly certain that the 800N does not double significantly, and probably has very transparent and highly accurate low frequency reproduction. To my ears, the 9NT does not have particularly clean bass, although it's pretty good for a smallish $2600 speaker.
Powered subwoofers actually make a great deal of sense when paired with well-endowed systems like yours. Rolling off those big 10" drivers below 50hz will only tend make them sound cleaner at high SPLs.
It'll also mitigate whatever low frequency anemia, real or imagined(LOL), that your Adcom amplifier may be imposing. (IMO, Adcom makes excellent amplifiers) |
Programmergeek....yep, bi wired....no jumpers. |
My guess is your amp. 300 adcom watts may not be enought B&W suck power! You could try bi amping one speaker off your amp or the other just run the bass like sugested above. Also make sure all your innerconnects are tight.
One thing to remember is 2 10" woofers may not make as much bass as 2 8" woofers. Nore should it, it should have the same bass, whatever the original recording has. Also if you are not biwireing do you have the posts jumpered? |
It sounds as if either you or your speakers are sitting in the null. If I were you, I would measure the room before doing anything else- it's a cheapest and fastest way to get a fairly clear idea about your room acoustics. And speakers positioning is probably the most important issue that should be addressed before anything else. You should really prioritize all possible variables, where cables, for example, should be rather down on the list, and room acoustics high. |
I was told a story one time about a wilson audio service guy came out to my buddys friends house & replaced a woofer & wired it out of phase. You may want to check it with a battery. |
You must either have a room issue or an equipment malfunction. I have N802s that have tons of bass. The 800s should have more bass. However the bass really opened up when I went from the 200W Marsh amp to the 350W TriVista. |
Judy is either deaf, an idiot or both to say that about B&W, unless she has some deep rooted personal issue with this line of speakers, if that is the case get happy pills and sit ona couch and talk it out lol |
Krellm7, thanks for the suggestion. They are all tight. I will be trying some different equipment this weekend. So far, I still do not have a clue. |
Tighten all the screws on your woofers. When I got my
Matrix 800's the screws were loose when I thightened them it helped very much. |
Is it reasonable to conclude that either these speakers are defective, or they just need gobs of power to produce descent bass? Well, you're feeding them with 300W capability per channel, so normally that shouldn't be a problem (unless the impedance below 80Hz or so is very high which is unlikely). UNLESS, indeed, the adcom has trouble driving those 10" woofs: i.e. the sound intensity of the top part of the spkr is much higher relative to the low part, which means that you can't "hear" the bass. A solution would be to borrow another two channel amp fm s/one and try it on the woofs. This is probably the problem. You may, if you wish, play the spkrs connecting ONLY the woofs and listen to what's happening. You may also be experiencing a null at some upper bass frequency due to yr room. For that, there's little to be done (other than room treatment), but experiment pulling the speakers ~1/3 into the room to gauge differences, if any. Also keep them far from each other & slowly move them closer until you hear the L&R low midrange sound coupling. And good luck! |
To answer a few questions....the back of the cabinet is three feet from the wall. One is near a corner and one is not. The room is 26 by 28 all closed. The 9's sounded fine like this, but I do realize position is proprietary to each speaker.
Judy, if I had to base my opinion of B&W on the 800's alone I would totally agree with you ( assuming mine are not defective). I also own the CDM 9 NT, CDM 7NT, and HTM1. These are fine sounding speakers at the price point. I have to admire that you put your opinion out there knowing you were going to get spanked! At the very least I would appreciate knowing what speakers you think I should audition in the used 6k to 8k range just in case these 800's go up on the block. |
I'd say it's the amp. Also, echoing what others have said, I find the B&W sound to be very neutral - you may have to "listen" for the bass moreso than with other speakers. |
Thank you for all of the responses. I should have been more clear....we are not talking a small difference in bass between the 800's and the 9's. The difference is at least 50 percent in the bass between the two in a two channel direct A/B comparison. The 9's have two 6.5" woofers, and the 800's have two 10". When you hit two 10" woofers with 300 watts, even if it is Adcom, something should happen! If the difference was more subtle, I would put more faith in the I/C, cables, amp,and positioning theories. If it is a defect,I also have a hard time believing that both speakers could have the same defect at the same time. The processor is new and I am still figuring out some of the features. I keep having this nagging feeling that a crossover is engaged, but that would not explain the difference in the two speakers when running in two channel side by side. I even tried switching sides. The results were exactly the same using the old Adcom processor. My guess is the 800's are putting out about 30 to 40 percent of the bass they should be capable of. It really is as if they are not getting the full signal. Is it reasonable to conclude that either these speakers are defective, or they just need gobs of power to produce descent bass? |
As an ex 800N owner I have to agree about them sounding lean. I auditioned nearly a half dozen amps from MBL to Mcintosh with always the same results. In fact I purchased my 800N's from my neighbour who was bi amping them with a pair of Levinson 336's in a beautifully dampened room with wood walls and carpet. He prefered his 800 Matrix and let me have his 800N's with a warning, wished I had listened. I guess it comes down to a matter of personal taste, had no problem selling them and received over 5000 veiws on my listing. Just my 2 cents, dont mean to dump on any happy 800 owners. |
I have N802's which has 2X8 inch woofers. Trust me plenty of bass. Don't get me wrong it's not like bass that you would get out of speakers built for Discos ie, read boomy. More of a natural sound. I agree with above post that B&W Nautilis speakers need plenty of power 300 to 400 watts, high grade cables I use kimber Bi-Focal XLs. which made mine sing. Correct placement and a good source. I think these suggestions would apply to almost any speaker except for the power requirements. BTW 14 gauge depending on the distance from your amp may not be sufficient. You may want to go 12 or 10 would be even better. In my home theater I use a B&W sub with the 15" woofer same as the N801. It shakes my house so I know they have capable bass. If your speakers are two years old than they are still under warranty. You may want to really check them out to make sure that they are working properly. Get a test CD as recommended and do one speaker at a time. If you feel that they don't sound right call Chris Mcbride at B&W he'll be glad to help you. |
It is a crime to run those speakers with Adcom amplication. Two things as mentioned above, Room Placement and Amplification.
Chris |
Room positioning is most likely the problem. I use Nautilus 801' s and they are very picky to how far they are away from the wall. You could have them in a position where the bass is being cancelled. How far is their cabinet back away from the wall? As far as Judy's response,either she hasn't not heard them properly positioned or driven properly as they are not anything like she described when positioned properly and driven properly. The Classical recording studios aren't using them as monitors for no reason. You have a great pair of speakers look elsewhere. |
I agree with all the above suggestions to look elsewhere for the fault if bass is lacking. I own the N800 Sigs and I drive them with a Levinson 336 amp. My room is fairly large and open on two sides with 16' ceilings. The bass is not lacking. I agree with Mikesinger: these are revealing speakers.
Best,
Mitch |
Yea they are amp picky adcom don't have the best bass power also the right cables are important it's not thickness but the cable itself. I learned they the hard way also copper is not just copper. Maybe see if you can borrow some different cables and innerconnects. They are a tuff speaker to drive. Overall B$W have skued bass and treble some, bass light some and some punchy, but in there defence once set up right they are not to bad and sound better than alot of speakers. Also make sure they have enought breething room if you have them tl close or to far frm a wall you will loose the bass image.
When you stand at the back of the room do you hear more bass? |
Hello. Intresting thread here. Wondering if Judy426 will please list her true reference speaker picks at say the 4-5K level then the 20K level please im just curious |
btw, lose the rear speakers for the time.... you can introduce them later...they might be causing cancellation... |
sounds like room position, pre-amp, amp, cables...using a sound processor really screws up the sound..
they are very, very, very revealing speakers.
how do you have them set-up ?
would suggest borrowing high current reference quality (krell, classe, levinson) amp/preamp and some decent ic/speaker cables..
get a stereophile test cd and run some test tones to confirm all drivers are working (test each speaker seperately then together - a driver might hae been replaced incorrectly).
good luck !!!! |
Put the 800s in the rear!!
Seriously, room positioning is probably at fault.
Kal |
Judy426, B&W is not used in any true reference system? Apparently Skywalker Sound doesn't count as reference since they have (5) 801's around the room. Most classical recording studios have used B&W for their reference for many, many years. Those must not count either.
Dry, lean, and without musicality is simply your opinion, and your front end. I've owned many B&W speakers, as well, as many other brands, and simply do not find that the case. Quite the opposite in fact. |
You need to lose the Adcom. B&W like watts AND current.
Try a Levinson 336 or 432, Classe 401, Krell FPB600.
The new "D" series B&W are better, however what you have is no where near as bad as others have said here. You just need real power.
Best,
Paul :-) |
This is the reason that 800, 801,802, etc. are not used in true reference systems. In addition these speakers are all dry, lean, and without musicality. I for one, cannot understand the fascination and following of B&W; there is so much more performance available at every price point it's amazing to me that people buy these speakers. |
