****The speakers are rated 50 - 600 wpc at 8 ohms. From my experiences
what actual wattages are needed from a capable amp will be based on size
of space, how close you will be sitting to them, the kind of music genre you
will be playing, and how loud. **** - Ct0517
****I recently acquired a Parasound Halo A31 (250 watts per channel) for a
system in a bedroom and hadn't heard it yet. The difference between this
amp and the MAC with the B&Ws was really huge. Of course, the
Parasound added a bunch of really good tight bass slam as you would
expect but the little MAC was no slouch in the bass department either.
What really surprised me was playing Patti Griffin in a very laid back
acoustic track was how much more definition and clarity the MAC had over
the Parasound through the B&Ws. The Parasound was also a little muddy.
It is a $3k amp and really not up to what I would want to run through these
speakers. I was surprised comparing these amps through the 801s. You
could go out and have a cup of coffee and come back and you would have
no trouble telling which amp was playing. They sounded that different from
each other. **** - Wemfan
Personally, I would not get hung up on the wattage only; within reason, of
course, since you do seem to like your music fairly loud. IMO, the above
comments demonstrate that to a significant extent that is not what will
guarantee satisfying results. You seem to have a clear sense of what
qualities you are looking for in the sound of the system and you mentioned
that you are a musician. Being a musician you are probably very sensitive
to things like subtle instrumental texture, micro dynamics and the kind of
tonal fullness that is not always heard from many audiophile rigs; this is not
meant to slight audiophiles, but is simply about priorities.
Some really good amplifier suggestions so far. But, IMO, short of the very
best, solid state amplification does not excel in the areas mentioned to the
degree that decent tube amps do. But, given your listening habits and your
speakers I think you will need some significant wattage. One amplifier that
comes to mind for your 801's that comes up used fairly regularly and for a
very reasonable price is the VTL 300 mono; lots of power and good
bass control with the classic tube attributes. When you say that the Mac
"simply doesn't have enough horsepower" is it a borderline case
or not even in the ballpark? You describe bass and drums as incredible
with the Mac; you seem to really like the sound. Have you considered
adding a second Mc275 in a vertical biamp arrangement? Might be
enough power and guarantees the sound you already like and probably a
refinement of that. Good luck. |
Ct0517, congrats on your great deal for the other hobby. Wemfan, congrats on your great deal for the 801's. As I stated previously, some years ago I had 802's S3. At this time, I was working at a B&W dealer, and we always had 801 S3 on display. The premium amp brand was Threshold/Forte that matched extremely well with the B&W. The "E" series Threshold were the last ones designed by Nelson Pass, and are the most desirable. They rarely come up for sale, and sell quickly unless priced too high. The Forte was a less expensive line by Threshold but still had the same sound character. I have no affiliation with this seller, but IMHO this amp would sound extremely well on your 801's, with the power of the Parasound, but character more like the MC275. Forte Model 3The amp has also been serviced about 2 years ago by Jon Soderberg, who worked with Nelson Pass at Threshold. The amp can definitely hold it's own with amps costing much more. As far as more expensive, a lot of people seem to like McIntosh SS or Pass Labs with B&W. |
Boats never crossed my mind. Hi Tls49 - here is what gave me "Outboard" on my mindWhat better place to share a great boat motor deal than on an audio speaker forum ? I bought one yesterday and the audio repercussions for my dealer are I won't be pouncing on that DAC I have been eyeing. Wemfan - sorry for my off topic post. |
Ct0517, as I was reading, I could sense you were on a roll, and I was giving you a thumbs up for saying to use identical wire when bi-wiring, and I don't even like bi-wiring. Then at the OTL part, I stopped, thinking, "what did he say? That sounds like Outboard Power Supply." Boats never crossed my mind. Sorry, but I had to correct that. Glad you understand.
And, Cheers to You!
|
Tls49 - my apologies - when you post running to long in your own post ...you should heed your own advice. my bad.
Excuse my excitement - you see I just bought this real nice 9.9 merc 4 stroke motor at bass pro shops at 1/3 off (if this winter ever ends) and have "outboard" on the brain. Yes output. thank u.
but word technicalities aside... this hobby has no real reference standards....so...imo
the main transformers I referenced in discussion really are... "out board", rather than ....."inboard" for the boaters among us....another hobby.....
fwiw I also picked up a nice little portable "dipole" fish finder. it shoots beams down and sideways...not to be confused with dipole speakers....which haven't yet entered the discussion here. But wait someone did mention Maggies earlier....my bad again... cheers
|
The last I had the 801 set up was with OTL amplifiers. OTL means Outboard Transformer Less. Meaning the main power transformers are not on the amp plinth where the tubes reside. ?????? The Wikipedia Definition may help with your understanding of an Output Transformerless (OTL) Amplifier, as I don't think it has anything to do with the amp plinth. |
Wemfan - Great news as your speakers are functional. Assuming they are not really flawed cosmetically from being banged around a studio?, I agree with Banquo that you got a steal. fwiw - Last month a Canadian audio friend I know who has owned 801's in the past; purchased 801s again with shipping and he was very happy to pay $2500 plus shipping. They were in very good condition. Btw - its a pleasure for me reading your honest, unbiased responses. I was surprised comparing these amps through the 801s. You could go out and have a cup of coffee and come back and you would have no trouble telling which amp was playing. They sounded that different from each other This can be seen as blessing or a curse - it depends on your point of view. For example if you are an audiophile and a bit of a speaker cable/ wire "nut" - you may end up with 12 wires hanging on a wall somewhere in your house; one for every month ....smartly hidden from your .... wifeThe last four or five years I ended up with four turntables ...in the same room..... at the same time. I place full blame on the 801's. And if you can't laugh at yourself from time to time; then its time to get out of any hobby. CT0517, I set them up as you said but I didn't run the lows with the Parasound and the higher end with the Mac yet. I forgot about trying it until I reread your post tonight. What is bi-wire? I suspect it is the same as bi-amp? I am familiar with biamping. Remember, I am a musician not an audiophile. :-) In order to become an audiophile you are required to step over to the dark side; do what manufacturers don't want u to do with their products :^) As long as it does not result in conditions discussed earlier. Follow your own road using your own ears. Definitely try this. I think you will be surprised at the results. Remove the jumpers joining the four terminals - put Parasound to the bass terminals - Mc Amp to the Mid/HF connectors. Biwire. With factory jumpers removed. When using just the Mc or the Parasound get another set of identical speaker wire for each speaker. Join the ends at the amp end - two (+) together and two (-) . You can buy banana or spade plugs that do this for you (connect them together) so single plug or spade - results. Be VERY careful not to let wire come loose from the amp input connectors and touch the amp frame. At the speaker end attach one set (+ and -) to the high and one set to the lows. As the 801 do hit 5 ohms it is important to keep the wires short and decent quality. Don't mix and match the wires going to the mid/highs andf lows- keep them the same. The last I had the 801 set up was with OTL amplifiers. OTL means Outboard Transformer Less. Meaning the main power transformers are not on the amp plinth where the tubes reside. In this pic the main amplifier transformers are located outside of the picture area. The speaker cables are only a few feet long biwired. click meLike ZEN, I thought the very upper end seemed not quite as good as the rest of the tonal spectrum. We should discuss this as it is the most common complaint from audiophiles on forums. The good news is the speakers are fine, functional and and working as designed. There are TWO parts to fix this - imo. if its not resolved with part one - part two will clinch it. PART ONE is understanding their design and objective. I felt that the Stereophile review did a real good job summing them up based on my experiences. From Stereophile (re: S2 review) "Higher in frequency, the response trend (averaged across a 30 degrees lateral window on the tweeter axis) is basically flat, but with a slight excess of energy in the presence region and a corresponding lack of energy in the top octave. All things being equal, this will make the speaker both a little too revealing of recorded detail and somewhat fussy when it comes to the quality of source and amplification components, just as LL noted in his auditioning comments." So we need a good source, preamp and amp/s, as we have discussed and as you have realized as well. PART TWO of the problem. Right now you are hearing a tonal imbalance based on your comments and it is causing the highs to stand out or not be as good as they should be. See the attached frequency chart from B&W on the 801's. 801 w &w/o filter in placeThe plotted chart is the 801's without the BAF. Note how even though you think you are hearing good bass right now the db levels for the bass whether with SS or Tube are really dropping off starting at 100 hz. In a smaller room that 100hz plateau will cause real boom problems and the room will need to be treated. The dotted lines have been drawn by B&W and show how the 801's measured with and without the BAF. See how the dotted line drawn in by B&W for the BAF works on my sample makes the bass more linear. The lows are boosted increasing DB's and this establishes tonal balance by ensuring a flatter plot line. I don't have the actual plotted graph with the BAF. The result of this is the bass notes will be clearer, and you will hear music notes on material below 40 hz from the source. You are clearly hearing the differences between the amps now. imo you will therefore clearly hear the difference with the BAF on music that has sub 40 hz music. In technical terms the BAF converts them from a 4th to a 6th order butterworth alignment; with a 19 hz cutoff and boosts the low frequency. Regarding the Krell amps you mentioned I will / can provide more info on this later as I have run way too long here. We would need to discuss if the Krells have been recapped for example. I think these are "one" example of a truly excellent candidate and would be awesome in that large room of yours. But $5000 is a big budget used as many amp candidates exist used including SS and tube designs. I can tell you I know that your current preamp MC 2300 is compatible with the Krell mentioned because it has capacitors coupled to the outputs to protect against a tube ever blowing and sending DC current to the Krell amp.... as the Krell design has no fuses to protect it if this happened. I have been down this road already because I also am using a Tube preamp albeit with a SS power supply, with my Krell amp right now. As far as the speakers go; fwiw myself I would leave the crossovers for now - as they are not broken. Get the BAF, get the stands, Get amp/s first. Here them as John Bowers envisioned first. You can always mod them later if desired. To understand what the stands will do with proper amps a picture is sometimes worth a thousand words and gives you a glimpse of what these speakers are capable of. original 801s s80..not matrix on stands...not designed to use BAFWemfan - Can I ask if you are an all digital setup (i.e. cd, file streaming) and/or do you play vinyl or plan on later ? Sorry for the long post ....again. Cheers |
Also, I gave $1500 for them. How'd I do? You did phenomenally. I've been looking for a pair myself and can only wish for a deal like that. |
Wemfan-
Glad the purchase has worked out for you.
Price you paid was good. Until you decide to get the Sound Anchor Stands (the 801S2 differs from the 801S3), I would suggest dialing in the position of the speakers first, perhaps waiting until you get an amp that matches up well.
When you have dialed in the position, I would suggest that you try the speakers with the spikes ( there are holes in the bottom of the cabinet. The stainless steel spikes came with the speakers when I bought mine new). If you didn't get them, they are available on ebay occasionally. This way , you can tell if there is any difference in sound, although the Sound Anchor stands are the way to go.
Regarding the NC crossover upgrade, I would probably wait a while. IMHO, they make a difference, but again, it is a shade difference, not a primary color difference. Remember that you do have to cut the connection to the original crossovers to connect to the NC's, plus you are eliminating the tweeter protection circuit. I left the originals in the bottom of the cabinet, and the wires to the NC's crossovers are coming out from the bottom of the speakers. This way, the original XOver can be re-connected if there ever is a need.
In the years I have had these speakers, the APOC protection circuit has only cut in 2 times, both times w/ the standard CD issue of Pink Floyd's Dark Side Of The Moon, on the cut with the alarm clocks (I was probably listening at about 85-90 dbs). On that CD issue, at least, there was clear distortion in the audio. At this time, I was using a Yamaha M-80 power amp, which was supposedly Class A/AB. This is the interesting part. The specs for the amp were 250W into 8 ohms, 330W into 4 ohms. Bought the amp new, and the amp got fried within 4 years. Then I upgraded to the Krell-KAV150, which ONLY put out 150W. The Krell ( remember that this is Krell's budget line, way inferior to the FPB high end line at the time) CLEARLY blew away the Yamaha in terms of delicacy, warmth, slam, and a sense of unrestrained power.
As an aside, while researching a replacement amp for the Yamaha, I inserted an old SAE Mark XXXIB amp into the chain, which is only rated at 50Wpc. Surprisingly, aside from a little bit of harshness, and a reduction in the the sense of front to back depth of filed,the SAE held its own.
Cheers |
Cool, sounds good. Thanks for the report. I can't say too much about the matching amps and preamps as I've never owned the 801s. However, the better the components, the better those are gonna sound. I personally wouldn't screw with the crossovers, I'm not that big into mods as you ruin the resale value and it's hard for me to hear the difference anyway. However, you can get new crossovers from B&W if you feel the crossovers are too old. Just a thought. Not sure on the availability at this time. go to bwgroupsupport.com for more details. |
Well, the short answer is that I am very impressed with the 801s. When I first hooked them up in place of the Khorns for the few minutes I thought these speakers are going back. They were so different from the Klips it took me a while to get used to them. At first they seemed slow, almost lethargic compared to the Klips but after listening back and forth to the speakers I started warming up to them. The Khorns have this live, open airy, dynamic sound that I love and am used to hearing. They are also a good match for my MC275 tube MAC which really is not the best choice for the B&Ws. However, going back and forth between the speakers really showed me their differences.
The Khorns--- Very live sounding, open, airy with a tendency toward harshness at times. They make some studio recordings sound almost live. There is an excitement and clarity. You almost tense up sometimes because it feels live and you expect a passage to possibly get louder. They also sound exceptionally good at low volume and on acoustic music. Negatives are the tinge of harshness or rattiness of the very upper end which makes this speaker a bit fatiguing to listen to for longer periods. In my experience, this speaker still rates at the top of my list.
The B&Ws--- They seem like a true studio monitor as has been mentioned. They don't color the sound like the Klips do. They are smooth and not fatiguing to listen to. That is a great plus. Great low end and a B3 organ sounds incredible through them. Drums are really lifelike. Like ZEN, I thought the very upper end seemed not quite as good as the rest of the tonal spectrum. Voices sound really good. The MC275 just doesn't have enough horsepower for these speakers. With the right amp and preamp my guess is that these speakers are really going to get where I want to go.
I recently acquired a Parasound Halo A31 (250 watts per channel) for a system in a bedroom and hadn't heard it yet. The difference between this amp and the MAC with the B&Ws was really huge. Of course, the Parasound added a bunch of really good tight bass slam as you would expect but the little MAC was no slouch in the bass department either. What really surprised me was playing Patti Griffin in a very laid back acoustic track was how much more definition and clarity the MAC had over the Parasound through the B&Ws. The Parasound was also a little muddy. It is a $3k amp and really not up to what I would want to run through these speakers. I was surprised comparing these amps through the 801s. You could go out and have a cup of coffee and come back and you would have no trouble telling which amp was playing. They sounded that different from each other. The Parasound did sound good enough through my KEF LS50s which is what I bought it for.
ZEN, what is a MBL? I will take your advice and acquire some stands but why does getting these speakers in the air help so much?. Also, I gave $1500 for them. How'd I do?
CT0517, I set them up as you said but I didn't run the lows with the Parasound and the higher end with the Mac yet. I forgot about trying it until I reread your post tonight. What is bi-wire? I suspect it is the same as bi-amp? I am familiar with biamping. Remember , I am a musician not an audiophile. :-)
I am ready for some amp/preamp suggestions. What am I going to have to spend to do these speakers justice? I think I would probably prefer a used amp so I can get more bang for the buck. Would the $5000 range for each piece get me where I need to go? There are a pair of Krell 350mcx mono blocks down where i bought these speakers. They would be the only higher end amps I would have access to in my area.
Frogman, i have never heard a CJ but I have wanted to. They are on my short list.
I need to reread the posts on upgrading the crossovers. That is something i would think would make an appreciable difference on these old speakers. i want to get the most out of them i can.
So, what do you guys think? |
Congrats on your new speakers and listen to Ct0517 for setup advise; he knows his stuff. I have heard the 801's in at least five recording studios and at least that many non-studio setups, and learned very quickly just how good these speakers are. Not because the sound was always so great, but because it ranged from "what-the-f%#k" bad to incredibly good. There is a reason that these are/were used in so many studios. They are very revealing of what you feed them; not only in the usual "too bright" or "too dark" sense, but of subtle instrumental textures and phase issues. I have heard some setups using dated digital equipment or mediocre ss amplification sound practically unbearable over the 801's. I also have heard some of the most memorable and realistic sounding playback from them. 801's powered by the classic Conrad Johnson Premier 1 tube amp produced one of the most realistic sounds I have ever heard with fantastic (and correct) mid and lower midrange fullness, image density and dimensionality. I would take that setup in an instant. Enjoy them! |
As my fellow CT resident Ct0517 has described his experience with this speaker I realized how good they really are.
With the room dimensions mentioned you should be able to let the 801's bloom with authority providing you are willing to put the horsepower to them. It gets a little tricky with the Kevlar mids which, in my experience also came to life with plenty of class a power. It was the tweeters that were the bugaboo for me.
Big as they are they are still monitors and they can become holographic if put on good sound anchor stands 18"-24" off your floor. Abbey Road Studios used them in this manor as well as many other studios.
I've gone to CES for the past 10 years and have heard the best of the best and the 801's will never be mistaken for MBL's but for $2k and proper power and set-up you will be in the conversation with 75% of speakers out there. I was forced to downsize to smaller Joseph Audio monitors which are really nice but I miss the big sound of the 801's. |
Wemfan - good that u got them home safe.
With your amazing 29 x 29 x 11 room and no one to tell you how the stuff in the room needs to be arranged;
you are seriously this audio hobby's version of a kid in a candy store. can u see us drooling ?
If I woke up from dream and was placed in this situation; this is what I would do based on the info you have provided.
Initial placement.
Place speakers 10 feet out from the front wall and separated by 10 feet.
Put your listening chair 10 feet away from them making an equilateral triangle.
Try to get your existing amps that you will experiment with as close to the speakers as possible.
This will allow for the shortest speakers runs (this is important).
Use double runs bi-wire coming from the amps to the speakers.
All 800 series I have owned personally - 800(quad wired) , 801, 802, 803, 805 (bi-wired) - benefited
801-805's Matrix series were designed to be biwired and is the reason they have separate bass and mid/tweeter terminals from the factory. The better the amps the more the differences can be heard.
1) Hook up the parasound - listen to the music you like.
2) Repeat with the McIntosh - tapped on its 4 ohm terminals.
Note the difference between SS and Tube presentations.
3) If your preamp has two outputs - do the dirty and hook the parasound to the bass terminals and the Mc to the Mid/Tweeters. Listen again. Set preamp at 0 gain. Slowly increase with full range music. Adjust the parasound gain controls for tonal balance.
All 3 experiments allow you to hear the speakers without the room coming into play too much.
Room test
Start moving the 801's closer to the room boundaries. You will start to hear the rebounded bass waves come into play.
The closer you get to the boundaries the sound will eventually get muddy - too much bass.
These are serious monitors with prodigious bass. So you will know in your room when this happens fairly quickly.
Amp Test
Leave the speakers as be - and move your listening position back in increments.
This will put more load on the amps and speakers as you will require more power for the same levels.
I expect the McIntosh to cough up its ghost first when used separately.
This experiment will give you a good feel for how good your current amps will be for you.
Look forward to your impressions as you play ! |
I had a pair that took me a couple of years to get the best out of them. I initially powered them with a 250w Bryston amp but it was not until I added another 250w Bryston that they really bloomed. I had the original stands but I found that they were much better when they are 18" - 24" off the floor. This is how a few studios that I know use them. I also used Acarian Black Orpheus bi wires that are excellent with these speakers. Now they will truly rock and you can close your eyes and it's as though the band is in front of you. They were never very good at low volumes (although not too bad with $5k worth of bryston amps) but the closer you get to concert levels the more impressive and realistic the sound.
Btw- there is a pair of Blk Orpheus cables for sale here on agon at a very reasonable price - these are tough to find (I have no idea who the seller is) |
Thanks guys. I have them home but I haven't had a chance to hook them up yet. I do plan on listening to them this weekend though. I will report back as soon as I listen to them. |
Yeah, congrats Wemfan! How do they sound? |
Congrats Wemfan ... 801 adventure about to begin.. |
GOOD NEWS TO REPORT!!!!
I called down to the store a little while ago and made the deal. I will pick the speakers up tomorrow but it may be the weekend before I have the time to get them hooked up and play with them. Anyway, they are mine. Now, to just get these huge boxes home!!! |
Hi Elee I would upgrade to the matrix 800, but that would need some serious amp power, possibly more room than I have now. Despite their menacing appearance the matrix 800's are the most room friendly speakers I have ever owned. The double woofers top and bottom each excite a different set of waves. result is the waves cancel each other out. the response is very smooth. The cabinet for the upper woofer is even heavier than the bottom one as it doesn't have the floor to help dampen it. the owners manual confirms how different placements worked well during B&W testing. This includes widely spaced and angled in; as well as in a narrow room shooting straight down. Another example of how room friendly they are can also be seen from the actual Stereophile review by musician Lewis Lipnick with his 800'sHis room was on the small side with low ceilings. I studied them for a number of years thinking about buying them. The only time they come up for sale it seems is if the music lover/audiophile is retiring into a small condo and needs to part with them or Divorce. A retiree is how I happened on mine. Cheers |
Wemfan If I acquire the speakers then I will need some help selecting an amplifier. Wemfan - Good luck with them. We're here to help. Its always a lot of fun spending others peoples money picking out gear. :^) If you do get them let us know what the budget is for amp/s and how they sound with your existing amps first. I am really curious to hear how the Mc tube amp set at 4 ohms, sounds in nearfield with music focusing on strings and vocals. Cheers |
Hi Elee,
Ok, no problem. Yes, I have read that too. Definitely the Matrix 800. Looking back, it was a bargain at the price (I believe $15k USD) and will probably blow away the current 800 series, or at least be very comparable. Yeah, you really need to invest money in amps and cables as the 800s are quad wired. |
CT0517,
I will be able to place the speakers where they sound best from my listening couch. They will go in the studio where I have lots of room. I don't know how to tell you how loud but I listen to music fairly loud at times, mostly classic rock type to acoustic type stuff. I plan to drop by the store tomorrow and based on my conversation with the owner I will probably make an offer. If I acquire the speakers then I will need some help selecting an amplifier. It is a consignment so no telling how it will go.
Elee,
thanks for the crossover and amp info. Very helpful.
The drawbacks are...
1. 87db so I am going to need a more powerful amp than I have.
2. No bass alignment filter
3. no stands
4. crossovers need updating
5. These amps show their age. Not terrible but not good looking, either.
The pluses..
1. I was impressed with their sound in the store. They sounded very good on music and the drum track was really impressive.
2. They are big heavy cabinets and they are local so I can load them in the truck and have them home quickly without shipping and all of the problems that go with shipping heavy cabinets.
3. I think I will be really happy with them and in my area big old heavy good sounding speakers don't appear too often.
4. It seems like a lot of good sound quality for the buck.
I should know one way or the other, this week. |
I made a boo boo typo It is the main reason the protection circuits were no longer needed and removed from the S2. should read S3. |
Elee and Linnlp12 thanks for sharing impressions. that was interesting reading. Elee I think the S3 tweeter was ferro-fluid filled Yes - and it was technology brought in from success with the matrix 800 - It is the main reason the protection circuits were no longer needed and removed from the S2. Linnlp12 - congrats on those ARC amps. I would be very interested in your impressions on using the 4 ohm taps. Wemfan
I have several amps but none large enough to properly power the speakers....another consideration. My friend at the stereo shop suggests at least 350 watts per side. The speakers are rated 50 - 600 wpc at 8 ohms. From my experiences what actual wattages are needed from a capable amp will be based on size of space, how close you will be sitting to them, the kind of music genre you will be playing, and how loud. Wemfan - can you tell us what kind of music, and how loud it will be from your sitting distance ? Here is the speaker impedance graph for the 801 matrix from B&W. 801 Matrix Impedance graphIf anyone contacts them at support@bowers-wilkins.com, they will send you this same graph. Note the 4 ohm symbol on the left and frequencies on the bottom. You can see the lowest they dip is just around 5 ohms and they do this at these frequencies. HZ - 20, 60-100, 500, 10k and above. So they need an amp that is 4 ohm capable (stable and powerful) in the low frequencies and high frequencies. My experiences using maybe 8 or 9 amps ? over the last 20 years are they are a fairly easy load as long as the amp can do 4 ohms SS or Tube. You will get sound and they will go loud. But how good it will sound (smooth and musical) in the high frequencies is where the quality of the power comes especially with SS. (i.e.) I ran with Brystons 4nrbs years ago. Great bass but the HF had me running out the door. I would have liked for the Brystons to work out as I live 40 mins from the factory. The Classe amps (another Canadian) - very tubey sounding for SS. But lighter in the bass. Big improvement over the Bryston in the midrange and HF but not the bass. I find when we read specs on amps they always list the 8 ohm nominal figure. Some do not list 4 ohms or 2 ohms. Ensure the wattage doubles down from 8 ohms for a SS amp and ensure the tube amp/s have a 4 ohm tap or are capable at 4 ohms - ask the manufacturer - if considering for these speakers. Happy listening Cheers |
Dave72-
As stock, probably. I have not heard them in person, so cannot comment. Again, via net scuttlebutt, some people prefer the sound of the S2 tweeter, supposedly less harsh, & some infer that the S2 w/ the NC crossover is as good, if not better than the S3.
Maybe CT0517 could chime in - Frankly, if I had the $$$, I would upgrade to the matrix 800, but that would need some serious amp power, & possibly more room than I have now.
Cheers |
Hi Elee,
Thanks for the info. Would you say then that the S3 is the better speaker? |
Wemfan-
All I can say is that after I got the crossovers, I was satisfied. Was the difference night & day, no, more like dusk & day. If I'm not mistaken, isn't there a return option on the Northcreeks if you are not satisfied? It was like removing an semi-translucent veil.
Like I said, I would be happy w/ the stock speakers. If you haven't already, do yourself a favor & read the Stereophile review, including the follow up, which states that even years after the original, the speakers were equivalent to speakers costing up to $13,000. That was in the mid-90s. I'd venture you would have to spend more than that now to get something equivalent. The JBL L300 from only a few years before the 801 S2, is currently selling for MORE than what they cost back then. Even at a cost of around 4K(including the NC's), I think you would be hard pressed,to find something new that is equally transparent and is truly full range ( ie reaches down to 20Hz).
If you get these and are ultimately not happy, you could probably turn around & sell them for not much loss. I can say that I thought long & hard before getting the NC crossovers. I scoured the net & read up on all the discussions I could find. I did not find anyone that had aquired the NC's that were dis-satisfied. It was also my impression that there are an equal number of people who acquired the 801s used who did not bother to get the crossovers & were perfectly happy. |
Elee,
The northcreek crossovers are $2100 a pair. That was a surprise. There is a lesser way to go but it is still $799. That is a pretty sizable investment in a pair of $2000 speakers. How much did the crossovers improve your speakers? I am thinking of making an offer on them early next week. |
Wemfan,
W/out going into to much detail, in order to make the speakers more mobile, the crossovers where cramed to fit into bottom of the speakers. Because of this resulted in compromises in parts quality, inductor crosstalk, and rather small iron core coils that saturated too quickly, resulting in decreases in dynamics & bass quality.
The NC crossovers simply replicated B&W's specs, but w/ high grade parts, a more spacious layout, and a huge copper air coil. It also bypasses the overload circuit, which also compromised sound quality.
As I said before, I could live happily w/ the speakers as stock. The NC crossovers, and other mentioned tweaks make a great speaker that much better. As an aside, I powered these with a 150W amp for years before upgrading. The great thing w/ 1st class speakers is that as you upgrade whats in front of the chain, everything just sounds better.
Dave 72- I believe the S3 crossover simplified the topology, used better crossover coils, eliminated the Zobel network across the woofer, & eliminated the APOC protection. Also, I think the S3 tweeter was ferro-fluid filled, whereas the S2 tweeter was not. Am unsure whater the firbercrete mid-tweet unit remained removable or not.
Cheers! |
I went to hear the speakers again today. They don't have stands or the bass alignment filter. My friend, who owns the shop, played a sample drum cd through them and it sounded like a drummer was playing in the room. I didn't have time to take them with me or have a a really good listen. What I heard I did like.
Linnlp12: Tell me why the new crossovers are so much better? Do the old ones drift or cross at different places? Why would I need new crossovers?
I have several amps but none large enough to properly power the speakers....another consideration. My friend at the stereo shop suggests at least 350 watts per side. |
So which is he better version? Series II or III? I don't believe there's a definite consensus. From what I remember, I believe there's more in favor of Series II. I'm not sure why, though. |
I own a pair of 801 S3. Had lots of speakers, picked mine up 2 years ago because I wanted to know if they were so great. The last time I heard a pair prior was in the 80's. So I needed to know.
I loved em. I think better than most speakers I heard before. In fact, I loved em so much I shelled out for the northcreeks 3 months ago. They are were worth every penny I spent on them. I was worried about wasting the bucks. I felt the improvement worth it. I drove em first with pass xa60.5 and then Cary slm200. Great on both. Currently running on my final amps before I retire arc ref250's. Traded the pass. The pass was something special but the ref 250 tubes are more real and satisfying to my ears. These are special amps and I enjoy the combination. I could have lived with either combination. Each is great in their own way. The pass was plenty of power, the needles never moved out of class a. Based on my observation of the power needles on my 250 and my experience with the Cary's in triode, I don't think less tube watts would have worked so well.
I don't think you will regret. They really are sound microscopes. I run em at 8 ohms, haven't tried 4 yet. Great sound. |
the current going rate IMO is around $2500 for clean, fully functional versions. Give or take a couple hundred either way based on owner history and condition. just to add proper stands add value for me. The Sound Anchors stands if I recall are $600 to buy new today. http://soundanchors.com/products/2072/matrixI would therefore see an extra $250 value if anyone was selling 801 matrix that came with them. Of those for sale in the previous link two come with proper stands. I prefer the SA to the Arcici. |
How about the price? Does $2k seem about right for these speakers? Wemfan - There are three - Series 2 and one Series 3 available on Audiogon right now. 801 Matrix for sale on AudiogonBased on the sellers pics only - imo just one of these sellers shows any real knowledge for proper setup of these speakers. They need room to breathe. If you were planning on putting them into a shared living space I would not recommend them at all as they will cause problems with your spouse and neighbors. Since they are being considered for a dedicated space/studio I look forward to your impressions, if you decide to bring them home. They cost $500 to ship. So in a case like this the original boxes are worth $200 to me. A full ten percent. Which is why I made the previous comment about local ones. the current going rate IMO is around $2500 for clean, fully functional versions. Give or take a couple hundred either way based on owner history and condition. fwiw This is half what they cost new and anyone who knows what these speakers are about; knows they were well under priced for the "audiophile" market when new, based on what they were and still are capable of when set up right. B&W finally realized the business error of their ways after John Bowers passing (RIP), and came out with new versions at double the price after the S3. With that this is a serious buyers market as we all know and I have tremendous respect for those that are trying to make a living in this audio business. Cheers |
No worries mate...good luck...still a fair sum... |
I have been busy but plan to get down to hear the speakers late in the week and see what I think with fresh eyes and ears. I have read and reread every post which has me more interested in the speakers and I am a sucker for a massively built cabinet. How about the price? Does $2k seem about right for these speakers?
Phasecorrect: I am not trying to stick with a price point. I am considering these speakers because they are local and of course in the realm of quality I am interested in. I wouldn't seek out and ship another pair if this deal doesn't happen. I would pay more for another set of appropriate speakers if I am getting value for my money.
There is a good chance I will bring them home and see what they sound like in my studio. I will first see if they are in good shape internally. I will post back here after i go and experience the speakers again. |
True...but most people who spend 2k or more have or plan on acquiring a 4 ohm stable amp...Could go with Vandy 2 sig to meet price point.... |
Fwiw...Maggie 1.7 replaced a speaker that was Class A rated for over a decade...the 1.6. |
Ct0517, I absolutely agree to try different things, as that does allow someone to learn more about this crazy hobby, and I have done my share over the years. However, some things can be like trying to climb a greased pole, and I refer to this comment in the link I posted,
"This is not to say that it can't be done, but having it turn-out well and actually conferring an advantage is difficult and unlikely in the extreme."
In your bi-amping experience, I do agree an active crossover would have helped, but IMHO, the different rise times and slew rates of the amplifiers would still compromise the coherency.
Wemfan could try it, and as long as everything is connected correctly, I can't see harming anything. He did say he was looking for something clear and musical. I doubt very seriously that clarity would be a characteristic of this set up.
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Hi Wemfan - look forward to hearing how you make out; whichever speaker direction u choose. Cheers |
Hi Tls49 I disagree with your bi-amping suggestion, as this will create a coherence problem. Here's my take on it. for myself my Quad 57's with the RM10 amp are very coherent and are a mid frequency reference for me. They help keep me honest to myself and in check when I play in this hobby. I have always needed to hear things for myself. So, if I already own the gear needed; and what I am thinking of doing will NOT: 1) blow up my speakers 2) make my amp/s self destruct 3) cause other harm; like make my dog run in circles then I say - go for it and give it try - as you will learn first hand what this sounds like yourself. Quite a time ago I tried biamping with two different amps. It sounded ok not perfect, but it did give me a glimpse of what having SS on woofers and Tubes on mids and tweeters can sound like. If I wanted to go further with this it would have required an expensive active crossover. I didn't pursue it further. Cheers |
Depends what factors are important to the OP.
Magnepan 1.7- freq response 40hz-24khz- not quite full range
Sensitivity-86db at 4 ohms retail $2K. Would definitely need wattage.
Vandersteen 3a -freq response 30hz - 22khz - still not quite full range
Sensitivity-87 db at 6 ohms. No better efficiency
Retail-$4500
Regards |
Magnepan 1.7 or Vandersteen 3...just informing OP of other options... |
Not a fan of the house sound, though on one occasion in a rather unusual room, I heard the model one down from them sound quite wonderful.
I can't help but wonder if the cost of shipping them from England compromises the value?
FWIW, I'd spend the money on other offerings. |
Phasecorrect - Factor in sound, performance, value, resell, warranty, and convenience going new becomes more aytractive. Provide brand & model of just ONE example of a new speaker that is: 1) Full range 2) Within the price ranges being discussed 3) that doesn't lose big time depreciation as soon as you walk out the door with them. I'd like to know what it is. |
Hi Elee - regarding the different 800 series BAF's/Equalizers.
Comparing the Maughan box and Krell
the Maughan box alters B&W parameters and provides a 6 db punch in the low end.
In my room this provides for a warmer sound - less resolution as more bass emphasis obscures some midrange/hf detail in the room.
The Krell follows the B&W parameters. There is more resolution detail, the bass is punchier. Better tonal balance - bass/mids/highs overall - imo.
But this also exposes bad recordings more.
The preamp I use has variable gain. Turning the gain down on those recordings makes the recordings at least listenable so I can enjoy the music.
Although the Krell is the most expensive it is worth it imo both from a sonics and build perspective.
However - If placing any 800 matrix series speaker in a livelier room; the Maughan will tame the highs better if room treatment is not an option.
Cheers
Cheers |
Sounds like 3k or more with options/upgrades...tighty sum for a 25 year old product.Factor in sound, performance, value, resell, warranty, and convenience going new becomes more aytractive. |
I would also check out new offerings in the 2K range...awful lot of great speakers in this range...at least for a reference point. |
Hi Tls49 - am curious. Which speakers with which amps ? Ct0517, As well as I remember, the speakers were DM604, or maybe DM605, and the last amp used was a 200w Forte 6. I do agree that if Wemfan wants to try the MC275, he should use the 4 ohm tap since the speakers' impedance drops to 4 even though it is 8 ohm nominal, however I disagree with your bi-amping suggestion, as this will create a coherence problem. When bi-amping, you should always use identical amps in a vertical configuration. Read this post by a well respected amplifier designer, especially the last paragraph, http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1234896660&openfrom&6&4#6Also, while working at that Audio dealer, was able to attend a CES show, and fortunate to meet Nelson Pass and his staff since we were a Threshold/Forte dealer. They also said that bi-amping should be done with identical amps, however their amps at that time did offer a slight twist to this. The Forte 6 and Forte 4 are identical, however the 6 is biased for A/AB at 200 watts, and the 4 is biased for pure class A at 50 watts, so use the 6 on the bottom and the 4 on the top. Elee, absolutely nothing offensive in your posts. My son plays guitar, and he is definitely a Fender guy. He has a vintage black face Princeton that is in very nice condition, however another amp he really likes is one we found at a pawn shop for $20 many years ago. It is a small tweed Gretsch that is an exact copy of the original Fender Champ. |
