I look forward to your impressions Wemfan.
Remember to factor in the service cost down the road (whenever it is needed), as part of the purchase price when considering the Krells.
Selfishly, I would like for Vegasears to drive over to your studio with his VTL 450's.
Then we could hear three-way comparison impressions.
But a google of Vegas to Dallas shows an 18 hour drive !
Cheers Chris |
Another good post, thanks. I ordered a Mcintosh MC452 today so we will see how the two amps stack up against each other. I will post my impressions of the comparison. I am very curious as I have no idea what to expect. I do want the Krells they are just so too darn good to let them go but after I have heard the Mac I will know better what kind of deal to make. I did read someplace where a guy moved up to the 450mcx from the 350s and he said it was a big improvement. Your 600 must really be something.
I would guess that I will have to go to Dallas for a good tech which isn't too bad since I go there a lot, anyway. Of course, I won't do anything until there is a problem which may be way on down the road as you say. I feel as you do about shipping heavy amps.
Meanwhile the Krells are resting comfortably in my studio. I plan to spend some time with them this weekend and i will see how they sound all around the room as you suggested. One thing I know, they are killer amps! |
I apologize for calling you..... Wemfan, no worries I have been called much worse .....by my wife. Re: Krell Of course, the low end nears perfection but these amps sound good all the way up as well. that is really good news. Sounds like you found "synergy" - do you realize that some audiophiles go in circles for 20 years+ looking for this. Changing gear in and out. Spending big $$$$ Recapping an amplifier is NOT rocket science. The key is to find a good local guy; someone you can drive the amps to within an hour of you. No shipping of heavy amps for me. Too many risks with couriers - ANXIETY filled. A post on audiogon asking for service people in your area would give you an answer if you pursued that route. You would be provided with names/numbers of people who come with reputations having worked on Krells. fwiw - The service is $1200 for a 600, over 200 capacitors are replaced and then you are good for XX years. Another option is to contact Dan D'Agostino direct. Yes D.A. Audiophile rumor has it he (well his techs) will work on the Krells. but you didn't hear it from me. just a messenger. But those 350 monoblocks are still young ? I would not think they would need caps for a while yet- but I am not a fortune teller and provide no guarantees. You are in a good position to know as they are local and are being sold by a friend so they have the history on them. fwiw - have a look at the top screws. Have they ever been off ? If not this means everything is still as it came from the factory. This is a good thing imo as it means they were made on "a good day" 6 months ago my Studer tape deck died for some reason - lost power. My tech thought it was the power supply capacitors. When I brought it over it was another problem. The capacitors were still at full spec. Do u know how old the Studer is ? We hear a lot of doom and gloom on Audiophile forums about capacitors, tubes blowing, etc.... This is the Audiophile paranoia side you're hearing..... Music lovers are more care free ..... They (Music Lovers) are a lot more fun and they listen to better music than Audiophiles :^) Re: MC 452 Another amp I am thinking about is a Mac mc452. How do you think the two amps compare sonically? The Mac I can get a great deal on, would be brand new and has great resale value. How great a deal can u get on the Mc? You don't need to tell us the price. The point being...... can you resell on the market for same money or close to what they cost you if they don't work out? Then it may be worth the effort to bring that amp in just to hear it. A/B that Mc 452 amp with the Krell mono's. I think that everyone on this thread would like to hear you impressions of both as well ? That's a comparison I would personally like to read about. Your space is 30 x 30 x 11. You've told us you like to crank it up and you like to walk around in your studio. This means the amp/s need to fill your whole space not just at your listening chair position. Some of the amps mentioned here. Krell 350 8 Ohms 350 W, 4 ohms 700 W, 2 Ohms 1,400 W Krell 600 8 ohms 600 W, 4 ohms 1200 W, 2 Ohms 2400 W McIntosh 452 450W @ 2, 4 or 8 Ohms Uses Autoformers We've seen some audiophile passion on your thread - re: SS and Tubes. You will see the same amount of passion if you go threads that discuss Autoformers. http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1262655794&read&keyw&zzmac=autoformersI have no comment on it. If you're considering the krell 350's, once you have the local service guy identified; you can have him check out the amps before you buy. He will check the values, see if there is any bulging or leakage going on, or any leakage /burnt marks on the actual circuit board. Have this guy in your pocket to bring it to when its time. Piece of mind. Myself I would not buy without having a local guy known and personally talked to about my situation - just so I am comfortable going in. There is a pair of those amps on audiogon right now. Its VERY important to have dedicated 20 amp lines with higher power Krells for their health. You will know when its time to recap. You will start hearing pops. Also the dynamics and famous Krell bass and smooth highs will start getting worse. So it will sound start sounding like it is clipping. Hope this helps and let us know how it turns out. Don't forget the BAF. Cheers |
First off Chris I apologize for calling you Tim. Sorry....
Thanks, Dave.
I can keep the amps really as long as I would like. I took them back today but my friend says for me to keep them a while.
My review..
These monos really are incredible. They sound really, really good. I am very surprised by how good they are. I have spent the last several days listening and comparing and I am just really impressed. Blown away by how good they sound. Of course, the low end nears perfection but these amps sound good all the way up as well. The Parasound just isn't even in the ballpark but we are talking a $2k amp compared to a $12k amp. The Parasound is currently on bedroom theater duty and does fine for that. I was surprised comparing the MC275 with the 350mcx. On the B&Ws the MC275 just doesn't have enough horsepower so dynamics and slam are diminished. It still has a small edge in the vocal range but overall the Krell is just a better amp to use with the B&Ws. However, on the Khorns it was the other way around the tube Mac came out on top. So, i guess there is a lot to this "synergy" talk I have been running into. Of the best two combinations 275&Mac VS. Krell&B&Ws the later came out on top for me. I like both setups but I think the 801s with that higher power SS amp is my current favorite.
However, I am reticent to acquire the Krell because of its age. It is 9 years old and from what I understand it needs a cap job. I checked into it and it will run about $2000 without shipping. I know everything sounds good now but eventually service will be required. My friend is asking $4000 but he says he will come down in light of the needed service. How much should I pay if I decide to go that way? Another amp I am thinking about is a Mac mc452. How do you think the two amps compare sonically? The Mac I can get a great deal on, would be brand new and has great resale value. If I invest in the Krell it would be for the long haul with no thought of resale. I want to make the best sonic decision.
Guys I need some input here. I ned to make a decision fairly soon.
Chris, this is one of those times I need a long post.
Thanks for all of the input, guys. |
Congrats Wemfam. Happy listening with your new amps! |
I finally brought the Krell 350mcx mono amps home for a demo. Nice ... how long do you have to play with them before having to make a decision ? of course there are things I like about each amp better than the other I'd be interested in any impressions you can share with how they compare to the Parasound and the McIntosh. Do the Krell mono's have what it takes to fill your 30 x 30 x 11 space "comfortably" without clipping ? Regarding amplifier clipping and how to know when it is happening. The B&W Support site has an interesting description of how to know when an amplifier is starting to clip. Taken from the link. How can I tell if the amplifier is clipping?
The initial stages of clipping add harshness to the sound. At higher levels, this progresses to a gritty sound; not dissimilar to the effects of having fluff on the stylus of a vinyl disc player. From my experiences on the 801 s3 - clipping becomes much more obvious with a SS amp over Tubes. This is why it is so important imo to ensure your amps/s and especially SS amps are "cruising" - not working hard - when playing peaks in your music. Its frustrating and a wreck of the experience if your into your music and it is sounds lovely; then it reaches a climactic point in the song - you're right there with it - and the balloon bursts as you hear that little bit of harshness kick in. We have all been there ? This could be because the amp is working as designed and just doesn't have enough balls. Or maybe a good indicator that it needs work - ie. maybe the capacitors need to be changed? fwiw - I would put on some nice full orchestral classical music that has huge dynamic swings - starting quiet to loud and back to quiet - passages and "crank it" in your room to find out. This is a test drive and you don't have your wife or neighbors (or the sellers of the amps) telling you to keep it down. :^) Cheers |
No worries, Tim.
I finally brought the Krell 350mcx mono amps home for a demo. I have been A/B ing back and forth with the MC 275 all evening and I really like the Krells. Of course there are things I like about each amp better than the other but I really like these Krell monos for the inefficient B&Ws. They are a good match. |
My previous post relates to my personal experiences.
If any of this info hits home with anyone it is pure coincidence.
I was just sharing.
Wemfan - I apologize for suggesting you seem to be a fit a certain type.
This was wrong and none of my business.
I'll just say...
I always try to match amp up with speaker. Not speaker with amp.
The speaker is what interfaces with the room.
On the preamp side - along with being compatible with your amp it needs to serve the needs of your source.
We have no information at all on this other than you use cd's and records.
We need to know brands, cartridge type, etc...
Happy listening.
Good luck with your search.
Cheers |
Krell fpb600here's the link again. not affiliated with the ad. fwiw - in Canada this amp was close to $20k when new due to the dollar. If built today I hazard a wild guess at over twice - or more - its new price back then to make today. Finding synergy is the key as Frogman mentioned earlier. imo -synergy means different things for each of us. 1) Some try to buy "Synergy". The latest and greatest products. in my personal experiences - I have not met one satisfied rich audiophile. They trade their gear like their stocks. But I need them because I buy used and take the depreciation - this allows me the cash needed to play with a few other hobbies. 2) Some try to find "Synergy" by DIY (do it yourself). Some build amps, others rip open their speakers and upgrade parts. Others construct turntables ....... :^( - I got lost on this one myself for a good 6 years. 3) Some try to find "Synergy" buy doing as much homework as they can ahead of time. Educating themselves. Before they bring the products in. You seem to be most like this type from the posts to me. This is very good - imo. Type 4 ? For me personally 2 and 3 have produced the longest lasting feeling of satisfaction. Even when I have bought new and it worked out well the feeling of contentment never lasted as long. Probably because I did not learn anything along the way. This is all about the music and how it makes me feel. The equipment part for me is the "hobby part". I need to be learning to stay entertained. When the music itself becomes a means to the end - its time to come up for some air. The symptoms when this happens are pretty clear. Cheers |
Funny story. That amp is a beast. I am sure it sounds great. I was rereading this thread and saw where you had listed one that was on Audiogon when this thread started but has since expired. I had forgotten about it. |
I read that it weighs 182 lbs.!!! where there is audiophile will - there is a way. True story. When I went to pick it up - I entered the front door of the sellers house - the lobby area. it was a surprise that we went upstairs instead of downstairs. It was the house of a single person (not married) - this seller. How did I know this ? Well he lived in a two story house and his 2 channel room was the master bedroom on the upper floor.... Nice big room ...... but suspended floors :^( ..... he was using 801 nautilus. His sleeping quarters were I guess one of the smaller guest bedrooms. Only a unmarried guy could get away with this I thought. and I thought I had it good.... How many single female audiophiles reading this ....would give up their master bedroom - the one with double closets for this ? The digital player was the top of the line Wadia and the preamp Pass Labs - X0.2 The main floor itself had a home theater setup with the kitchen next door. Nice touch. We packed the 600 in the ingenious Krell box. The 600 comes with a very unique box - allowing two people to easily place it in the box because it is as you say Wemfan - heavy. You have to see the box itself to understand what I mean. It's really thought out well by Krell. IN fact I was so impressed with the box that if the 600 comes with a Krell box its worth at least $500 more to me just for the box. anyway..... We strapped it to my two wheel dolly. We started slowly down the stairs to the main floor. two levels of... if I remember 10 stairs each. When at the bottom we left the amp on the dolly laid flat - horizontal - in the front hallway - and took a break. We had a pop in his main room. While we were chatting all of sudden there was a loud BANG!!! from the hallway near the amp. The noise accentuated by the narrow front hall way. WTF was all that I could think. It sounded like something in the amp blew up. I was close. one of the tires blew on the dolly holding the amp up...... Looking like the movies where the guy is driving around on one rim after a flat tire, we rolled the crippled dolly and amp the rest of the way to the vehicle and put the amp in. Maybe the wife can move it around for me... My wife helped to lift the 800's into place. I wish now I had taken a picture of her face when they were up. Amps stands with castors - like your 801's if moved around alot. |
No problems on the current pre amp but that goes with the MC275 and Klipsch system. The 801s will be its own complete system. I read about the K 600 and it appears to be a killer amp. I read that it weighs 182 lbs.!!! Damn, I may not be man enough to own one. Maybe the wife can move it around for me...
Frogman, My Parasound is the A31 which is a 3 channel amp. The same amp but in stereo is the A21 and it is a $2000 amplifier. |
Hi Wemfan I will acquire the BAF filter as soon as I can locate one. Thanks for stressing the importance of it. I have a BAF available - if you are not able to source one I can sell one. You can contact me at bcpguy(at)bell(dot)net if interested. What tube pre do you suggest for the Krell amps? If a tube pre as long as the outputs have capacitors coupled to them. What are you looking to improve on with your current preamp? Any problems with it ? I would keep it for now and not change it out until after you hear how it sounds with the amp/s you're thinking of getting. |
The Krells are no slouches. Definitely give them a try. What do you have to lose? |
Wemfan, I think you missed my point. Your Parasound, based on the info I have read, is $3000 and is generally considered a solid performer. If I wasn't clear: my point was simply that if you compare your Mac to what the best tube amps have to offer, you might find that it is probably about as far from that as what your Parasound offers relative to the best solid state amps; so, much of the difference that you are hearing is the intrinsic differences in sound between the two technologies. As someone who considers himself a "tube guy", you may want to focus on what exactly that means to you. More importantly, and especially for someone who admits to "not knowing much" about this stuff, it's important to remember that price is not necessarily the best determinant of ultimate quality. To my way of thinking, if you prefer the sound of tubes, trying a tube amp with adequate power is the next logical step.
Which brings me to the subject of money. You have jumped to considering amps in the $10-12,000 range!! In all lack of shyness, my advise at this point is to take a deep breath and slow things down. Building a truly satisfying system, as has been suggested many times so far, is about balance and synergy (of various sorts). Ultimately, all the well-meaning advise that we can offer you cannot replace the homework that all experienced audiophiles have done by way of trying different gear and forming one's own sense of what "synergy" means in the context of your own sonic priorities. Good luck. |
Very good post, Ct0517. You have me again thinking about those local Krell 350mcx monos. I can bring them home for a test drive and I will look up the Krell 600 as soon as I finish this post. What tube pre do you suggest for the Krell amps?
I will acquire the BAF filter as soon as I can locate one. Thanks for stressing the importance of it.
I will keep it fun and I am enjoying learning something about audio. I have acquired several new pieces lately and I am enjoying it all. Adding the two Mac pieces increased the quality of my system dramatically. I am taking some good steps forward and enjoying every minute of it. I really do appreciate everyones input. It is a bit hard for someone as ignorant about audio equipment as i am but I am getting better. It is starting to sort out for me. I am getting familiar with some of the gear out there. Now, to look up that Krell 600... |
Ok cool, Wemfan, you're on the right path. |
Hi Wemfan Due to your large room and the following comments. I never do anything the same way twice. I also listen to a large variety of music which is constantly changing. I listen while I work in the studio moving around to different areas of the room. I listen loud, I listen not so loud. There is no average with me. I go through periods where I listen a lot and periods where I don't. I never warm up my equipment. I have found that with both tubes and SS a warm up helps. My tube pre-amp absolutely needs minimum one hour warm up. Says so right in the manual too. Don't hold back tell me what you think I should do. Acquire a High Pass BAF as it will free "whatever" amp you get from subsonic frequencies. Eliminate woofer pumping. This will lower distortion and make the window of music clearer. It will also boost the lows as designed and give you tonal balance. This is more noticeable with SS I have found. I need a good match for the B&Ws and I am not sure what that is. I listen while I work in the studio moving around to different areas of the room. I listen loud Lets first understand I have made my 801 s3 that I have owned for going on 20 years soon work really great with tubes (PP and special OTL) but not in a room your size; and SS in both smaller and larger rooms. For a plug and play approach I am going back to recommending an already recapped Krell amp/s and this is the reason to cut to the chase. Its a fact. - that the older Krell stuff has synergy with the Matrix 800 Series Line. So much so that they - KRELL - produced their own High Pass BAF for the Matrix line as discussed here. They actually also produced a Krell version of crossovers to run with the four separate cross over drivers on the 800 matrix as well. This holds a lot of weight for me. They understood how the speakers work and were meant to be run. So they are ONE option. Lets finish with an analogy. Lets imagine you work for a boss that loves his wine, a serious wine connoisseur. He has invited you to his house for a wine tasting party, and asked that you bring a favorite bottle of wine. Now lets assume you do have the occasional glass of wine; but you are a beer drinker yourself. So your knowledge of wines is limited leaving you feeling a little unsure. You find out from a co-worker that your boss really loves his red wine; but also learn that his lovely wife prefers white wine. What do you bring over ? Easy - You bring over a bottle of red and a bottle of white. Where am I going with this? Well you said earlier. How about the $10000-$12000 range. So another consideration with a $10k budget. A $5000 (ss ) amp now and another $5000 (tube) amp later. Remember to keep this fun, hope this helps and enjoy the journey. The Krell 600 will make your socks roll up and down in your studio - no matter where you are located in it. Whatever amp you choose it needs to become the alpha over the woofers for best sonics in a room that large. It needs to have total control - this means it needs to stay in cruise mode for its capabilities on the peaks. Not approaching limits. |
CT0517, I never do anything the same way twice. I also listen to a large variety of music which is constantly changing. I listen while I work in the studio moving around to different areas of the room. I listen loud, I listen not so loud. There is no average with me. I go through periods where I listen a lot and periods where I don't. I never warm up my equipment. I walk in,flip a switch, listen for who knows how long, shut everything off then leave. There is no usual with me. I usually have 3 different stereos set up at the same time.
Frogman, I said this particular Parasound is not as good as the MAC. This Parasound is around $2000 new in stereo ( mine is the three channel) while the MC275 is close to $5000 new. I don't think that is comparing apples to apples. In general I lean towards tubes but with these low sensitive speakers I am also considering SS. I may start a thread on the amp forum and see what the guys who frequent there suggest. I need a good match for the B&Ws and I am not sure what that is. Hopefully it will become clear eventually.
Dave, I like what I have read about the Pass amps and i like the way they look. They are darned expensive, though. If I go SS I will be looking at the Pass amps. I will call the guy Ct0517 suggested and talk to him first. |
****A low powered tube amp is not the place to look for these speakers so I am considering a much larger power SS amp. Maybe I should be considering tube? I don't know. Anyway, don't be shy. Tell me what you think.****
OK, I won't be shy, and in doing so I obviously show my own biases; so keep that in mind.
I still don't understand why you make the leap to assuming that, while preferring the sound with the Mac, simply because the Mac doesn't have enough power ("not even in the ballpark"), you need to go to a ss amp. I think that the pertinent questions and answers are found in one of your previous comments:
****Frogman, The MAC did sound much better to me. The Parasound is just not as quality of an amp as the MAC. It has nothing to do with SS VS tubes.
I like tube amps but I also like SS in audio. I am just thinking along ss state lines partially because of power ( more headroom, etc.) but maybe I am wrong? When I said I was a tube guy it was in reference to guitar amps which is a whole different world than stereo gear.****
I would not assume that it has nothing to do with SS vs tubes. I think it has everything to do with that. Here's why, and I will try to give you some background for why I am saying that:
I am very familiar with the sound of your Mac amp. I recently almost killed a friend for trading in a pair of them and his C20 tube pre to a local dealer for a Mac ss integrated which we both now agree doesn't sound nearly as good, but is convenient as hell and is "new". I also had this same friend's Levinson 23.5 amp for a few days which I almost bought; but didn't, since the experience served to, once again, show me that it really is an apples/oranges comparison (ss/tube-Levinson/Manley). I have also heard my Manleys in his system replacing the Macs.
I don't know the sound of the Parasound, but I just read several on-line reviews of it (for whatever that is worth) and it appears to be fairly well regarded for its sound; one reviewer compares it to a Krell and a Levinson both in the $10,000 range and claims that the Parasound can hold its own. Now, I have owned enough ss and tube amps over the years to know that this type of review can only tell you so much. However, the conclusion that I can come to with a fair amount of certainty (for me) and based on my experiences is that both your Mac and the Parasound are, in fact, roughly of equal quality compared to the best of each respective technology (tube/ss). So, IMO, it is not true that the "Parasound is just not the same quality as the Mac". I would say that they are and what you are hearing is, in fact, the intrinsic differences between ss and tubes. Differences that will be there even as you move up the quality ladder to more expensive amps. So, since you can get more than enough power with a more powerful tube amp, then why go to ss? IMO, and in spite of all the claims that the two technologies are getting closer and closer sound wise (they are), there are still certain differences in how each technology reproduces music that will be there no matter how much you spend. You have to pick your poison. And, BTW, if you like tube guitar amps because of their sound, there are definitely parallels to the issue of their sound in stereo playback.
Here is what I would do, and I am now going to contradict my earlier comments about the musician thing (and apologies again for that). First, you have to level the playing field. You have two amps of (IMO) roughly equal quality; one ss and one tube. You need to use both with speakers on which the difference in POWER will be fairly insignificant due to the speaker's efficiency: the Klipschorns. Then spend time with each amp on the K's and work on your music and pay attention to not only how long it takes you to learn certain songs or guitar solos; and, just as importantly how much fun you are having doing so. Does one amp seem to facilitate the process? Does one amp let you hear some subtle expressive quality in a guitar player's phrasing that the other amp obscures? Don't rush the process and switch back and forth between the two amps on the K's. I believe that after a short time certain patterns will start to reveal themselves and one amp will reveal itself as superior; and which technology is better FOR YOU. Good luck. |
You're welcome, Wemfan. The Parasound is a solid contender and is great bang for the buck (in high end terms.) There really isn't anything wrong with it. It's a very good set of amps.
The Pass Labs, however, is something special, imo. It does cost more than the Parasounds, but I will say it's worth it, especially this new .8 series. From reading on other forums, just about everyone who has bought a .8 series amp has been very satisfied with the sound, and feel it is better than the older .5 series. |
Frogman you have a way with words to describe sound so I look forward to your description of analog vs digital on the ET2 thread. Also I like how Elee described the difference between stock and Northcreek crossovers. Regarding the NC crossover upgrade, I would probably wait a while. IMHO, they make a difference, but again, it is a shade difference, not a primary color difference. He painted a picture for me with his words. |
Please post some thoughts. Don't hold back tell me what you think I should do. Wemfan no problem I can do that. first if you can answer a couple questions that would help guide the recommendation. Hypothetical situation Lets say you have had a long day and need to unwind in your studio. Its wasn't a bad day per say; which usually puts me in the wrong frame of mind to want to listen to music. So a productive but long day; and now to help you stabilize (release those endorphin's) you need to hear those vibes from your favorite music. 1) Can u name a sampling of six albums/selections you are going to go for in this situation. Maybe Patti Griffin that you mentioned earlier is one ? 2) Assuming you still have the 10 foot Equilateral triangle layout ? What volume will you play the music at: a) Low volume that allows for conversation with a friend. b) Medium volume 75-80-85 db not including music peaks.(Doctors say our ears are ok for 8 hours a day at 80db) c) Higher volume. 90 db average up - time to get up and do some dancing in the room. (Maybe you are having a party in your studio one day) 3) Of the music selections do any of them fall within the medium or high volume level most of the time ? This info helps me with a recommendation. Look forward to hearing some selections. Cheers |
My problem is that i just don't have enough experience in listening to good quality stereo amps. I am going to have to make my decision on which amp to acquire based upon recommendations and whatever I learn about how to compare specs. One reservation I did have acquiring the 801s was their low sensitivity.
Frogman, I have heard many great things about Manley amps. They are in the back of my mind. I am currently compiling a list of amps that appeal to me and Manley is on it. Any other suggestions? I do like tubes. My c2300, MC275 and Khorns is a really great sound to me. I can't say just how good it compares to other audiophile equipment but I love to listen to it. It is really an exciting system for me. However, trading out the Klips for the 801s showed me that they are a different animal. A low powered tube amp is not the place to look for these speakers so I am considering a much larger power SS amp. Maybe I should be considering tube? I don't know. Anyway, don't be shy. Tell me what you think. I do plan on acquiring an amp for the 801s very soon.
Dave72, That Parasound has come up in several threads. It appears to be something special. In the last day or two i have been learning all i can about Pass labs. Soon I am going to take a good look at the Parasound. Thanks.
Ct0517, Your posts are always most welcome. Please post some thoughts. Don't hold back tell me what you think I should do. |
Chris, you're right, I have liked some of the Krells that I have heard very much. I owned the KSA 50 (good but admittedly far from their best) years ago and enjoyed it very much. Still....there's just something about a good tube amp; something that makes music sound closer to real for me. I know all too well that this is a controversial subject, but (just as with the digital/analog debate) there are certain qualities in music that, even as the technologies come closer and closer to each other sound-wise, are still better expressed by one technology (tube/ss) or the other. As we all know no gear is perfect so we have to choose our poison.
BTW, I haven't forgotten about your question re analog /digital in the ET thread. It's going to take some time to get all my thoughts (for whatever they may be worth) down. |
Not as squeaky clean sounding as great solid state amps I recently took my 6 year old digital player and 6 of my CD's to a brick and mortar (B&M) store in Toronto to hear it with a current highly respected DAC. Digital Analog Converter. The Amp and Preamp were current Pass Labs products. Speakers were Gerswhin's. The sound was very squeaky clean. I would not tolerate my digital player for 15 mins in my room like that. I attributed it to the room /speaker setup and the fact it was digital. I walked away without a clear sense of what is better for me unfortunately. So it just goes to show there is no substitute for audition in your own room. Frogman - my Krell is anything but squeaky clean sounding. :^) This short thread is any interesting read - I thought. http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1226354800&readWemfan. I was only a messenger on the PassLabs info. fwiw - that review wasn't very good for me. maybe I missed it but no room, sitting position info. Also if any one is interested check the specs on the speakers used in the review. Not surprising imo he uses a sub. I will post some thoughts later. cheers |
Wemfan, the "Manley Reference" line was VTL's "premium" line while the designer David Manley was still owner of the company. When Manley terminated his affiliation with the company, his son Luke Manley took over the co., and EveAnna Manley developed the Manley line as a separate co. I think I got the history right.
I have owned a pair of Manley Reference 200/100 mono's for many years and can tell you that they are great amps; if you like tubes. Powerful (200w in tetrode mode) reliable, dimensional and full-sounding amps with good bass and that natural midrange quality that only a tube amp gives; IMO. Not as squeaky clean sounding as great solid state amps, but...... |
Also, consider the Parasound JC-1 monos. Those are $9000 (?) retail. |
Well, if you're gonna go over $10k, then again the Pass Labs X350.8. And sure, call Pass Labs about it just to be safe. |
I notice these are "reference" amps. What exactly is a reference amp? I see that popping up from time to time. The amps look good and that would certainly be a good price. I will add them to my list. Thanks.... |
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Tis49,
That was a good review on the x250.5. That guy was certainly high on it. I will read some more about this amp and seriously consider it. Reading that review sure made me want one and I would be willing to pay $8000 for such a great amp.
CT0517,
So, two votes for the X250.5? Think there would still be some new ones out there? Thanks for calling Kent and sharing what he had to say. So, if it turns out to be a Pass the X250.5 will be it. I don't buy audio amps often so I want to acquire something that i am going to really enjoy for many years to come so, of course, let's up the budget. How about the $10000-$12000 range. From what I can tell in the audio world that really isn't all that expensive and i would like to be under that but I am willing to go that high to get something I am really going to enjoy.
I would also like to consider tube amps. I really like my MC275 through my Klipchs but they were not a good match for the B&Ws. How about something like the MC601s? I like the idea of having mono amps. The stereo amps can get quite heavy. Should I consider Conrad Johnson or Audio Research? Bryston has been suggested and what I have read about them has all been good.
I don't think I will even try the local Krells. No telling how old they are so they may be close to needing service and $4k for them or few thousand more for newer technology and more time until service would be needed sounds like a better way to go to me.
What would you now suggest with the new budget? |
Wemfan
If pursuing Pass Labs I highly recommend talking to Kent 5308785350 prior to any actual purchase.
He is very friendly, knowledgeable and forthcoming with the information.
I was curious so I gave him a call.
Told him we were considering using an x.350 on 801 matrix in a room 29x29x11.
Some of the speakers currently being tested with at Pass Labs are Sony's SSAR1, Array 1400 and TAD - did not catch the model # of the last one.
When I mentioned the matrix 801's some comments were
"you mean the boxy ones with smaller boxes/pieces on top of one another"
"those were very highly regarded and not difficult to drive at all"
He quickly put the impedance info and room size into his online model.
the amp info I got from him.
x350 was designed around an 8 ohm speaker.
the more current product 350.5 is based on a lower 6 ohm speaker.
the x350 does double down but it does not like it (Kent's words)
Distortion increases. Similarly it would produce half the power at 16 ohms.
He suggested that the x250.5 which is also based on a 6 ohm speaker would be a better choice than the x350.
The 801 matrix as we saw in the impedance graph - dips to 5 ohms in the bass and HF areas.
The rough estimate from Kent is you should be able to hit 105 db peak levels in your room with the x350.
Cheers |
Wemfan, hopefully you could sense I am a big fan of products from Nelson Pass in my 1st post on 3-29-14. As far as the X350, this is one of the original "X series" introduced, then came the "X.5 series", with the "X.8 series debuting in the last few months. It will be very doubtful to find a "X.8 series" used, and new in the desired power will exceed your stated budget. The "X series" are definitely quality amplifiers, however most agree the "X.5 series" have a lot more musical magic in the midrange. Here is a good review for the Pass Labs X250.5, with the 2nd paragraph noting some differences to the original "X series" design, and definitely read to the end as he rates it above similiar priced amps, and somewhat equal to one much more expensive. IMHO, I would try to find a "X.5 series". As far as my previous recommendation of the Forte amp, I was thinking of this to get something quickly that would sound good with enough power. Then have more time to look for something like a Pass Labs. The Forte amps are usually an easy sell, however the one I linked to does seem to be priced somewhat high, but I'm sure he's factoring in the recent service by Jon Soderberg, the absolute best for Threshold/Forte. |
Dave 72,
I found a Pass x350 for sale about a hundred miles from me. However, it is not a .8 as you suggested. What do you think? |
There really isn't much choice locally. There is one audio repair shop and that is really it. I would have to go to Dallas or Kansas City to hear any higher end audio equipment and I doubt under those circumstances I could really tell much about what i would be hearing. For me, I need to A/B equipment before I can tell much about it. Even if something sounded good there I would have no idea how it would stack up against my equipment at home. My plans are to take the suggestions here, check out the amps best I can, then make a decision. |
Wemfan - $5000 will do it for the amp/s imo. Here are some thoughts for you since I recently went through this exercise with amp/s - TWO TIMES - in the last 12 months. First - It is important to run the 801's with the woofer covers removed. This will help let you know how much they like what is in front of them. If there is visible woofer pumping going on - cone excursion - there is a problem. Unlike lesser speaker designs that readily pump by design - and I include the other matrix consumer models 802, 803, 805.... in this statement having owned them; You should NEVER see cone excursions with the 801's large woofer (even with vinyl) when set up with compatible amp/s and the BAF. This means they are performing at their best - energy is not being wasted on the woofer movement. Much dust collected on the woofers due to this. When buying amps I usually do research with the amp manufacturers and the specific speaker/s they used to come up with their designs. The targets or reference points. If this information is not available (friends, websites, forums) they "manufacturer" should be contacted. If the "manufacturer" won't divulge what their reference speakers are - I strike them off my list. Ensure their speaker references have similar amplifier requirements to your speakers. Many times we can put two and two together. For example if the manufacturer of the amps and speakers are in the same city - chances are they have worked together. This is a VERY niche and SMALL hobby. An example of one speaker/amp relationship is my Music Reference RM10 which was designed by Roger Modjeski specifically for his personal Quad 57's. Sometimes when you bring speaker/amp partners together - the synergy becomes very evident. There is a relaxed delivery that starts at low volume and continues at high spls. It is hard to describe but when you hear and feel it - you know it. I can tell you when I hooked up the Krell FPB600 to the 800's there was synergy. When I swapped in the Krell BAF there was even more. Things kind of fell in place. Elee's comments earlier about D'Agostino (formerly of Krell) owning the B&W's earlier in his career became evident to me. Krell FPB600 - 600 wpc 8 ohms, 1200 wpc 4 ohms, 2400 wpc 2 ohms. Sample KrellBass is the foundation of the music for me. Get it right and the rest falls into place. The 801's are 87db sensitivity not dropping below 5 ohms (50- 600 wpc) A fairly easy load and the impedance chart posted earlier is not off the charts - like other speakers. The 800's are 93 db - but are 4 ohms and actually dip below . They are rated for 150-800 wpc. I can tell you there is so much control and headroom with the 800's. The 801's being an easier load would be even more phenomenal imo with a large Krell in that large studio room of yours. With that; the best amp candidates imo are the local ones that can be auditioned in your room. Nothing beats this... So I would strongly consider an audition of the local Krell 350's you mentioned. Ask to borrow them for a couple of days. I would even offer the seller a nominal fee for the privileges this brings you without having to commit to them. This is a "serious" buyers market. There are approximately 650 amps for sale just on Audiogon right now. You want to keep the advantage of being the buyer as long as you can. Once you commit and buy - moving this gear requires ALOT of patience and good pricing if it doesn't work out. Again I will say I have a lot of respect for those in those in this audio BIZ. So what other amps are available locally? Can you tell us what retail high end stores are within driving distances to you? This way we could do a search of their inventory online for you - another option. |
I think I am comfortable up to about $5k each for the preamp and amp so a total of $10000. I would like to spend less but i could spend a bit more if I needed to. I spent just under $10000 for my c2300 and MC275 and I am happy with them. I am okay with used as well as new.
I had some Luxman monos at one point and they were good amps. I will check this one out also. Thanks... |
You're welcome, Wemfan. Another amp would be the Luxman B-1000f monoblock amplifier, but that is quite expensive, I believe. It is rated to go 2000W into 1 Ohm. |
I want my studio to roll my socks up and down every time I turn something on in there. Wemfan - is there a budget range you would like to stay within to do this? |
Not offended Wemfan, and I did not suggest anyone else would necessarily be offended. It was simply a suggestion based on my own experience. As I said, this is the kind of thing that is difficult to express. If my suggestion offended you, my apology. |
Thanks, Dave. I will check those amps out.
Frogman, The MAC did sound much better to me. The Parasound is just not as quality of an amp as the MAC. It has nothing to do with SS VS tubes.
I like tube amps but I also like SS in audio. I am just thinking along ss state lines partially because of power ( more headroom, etc.) but maybe I am wrong? When I said I was a tube guy it was in reference to guitar amps which is a whole different world than stereo gear.
Now to address your "unsolicited advise"... nothing I said could possibly offend anybody but obviously you are the exception. I am the nicest guy you ever met but I never indulge those that are looking for the slightest of reasons to be offended. |
****After trying both the Parasound and the MAC I can hear that I need a really good SS amp with an appropriate amount of power. ****
Wemfan, could you elaborate on that comment? Earlier, from your description of the differences between the sound of the Mac and the Parasound, one would get the impression that the Mac sounded much better to you:
**** ..... how much more definition and clarity the MAC had over
the Parasound through the B&Ws. The Parasound was also a little muddy. ****
Do you feel that you need a good ss amp because you think that only ss will give you enough power, or because you have changed your mind about preferring ss attributes vs those of tubes?
My recommendation of the VTL was precisely because that is an affordable used alternative that will give you lots of power with good bass control (a typical ss attribute) and, being a tube amp, classic tube attributes like dimensionality and fullness of tone through the midrange. You describe yourself as a "tube guy"; then why ss?
Now, for a bit of unsolicited advise of the kind that is difficult to express and can be misinterpreted; so, I apologize ahead of time:
Remember that you are on an audiophile forum. Audiophiles most certainly also "like things that sound good" and "how music sounds is important" to audiophiles also; that is the nature of the beast. Having said that, it is also true that, generally speaking, musicians tend to give priority to certain sonic attributes. In my experience, and as a musician myself, those tend to be in the areas of midrange (especially lower midrange) fullness and micro dynamics; hence my recommendation of something like the VTL's. As a musician who has been poking around this forum for some time I would encourage you to not dwell too much on the presumed differences between how musicians and audiophiles listen to music; it will ensure the best dialogue and best advise. |
As for amps, I would go for the bigger Pass Labs .8 A/B amps. At least the X350.8. Bryston 28BSST2 might be another consideration, as is the Accuphase P-6100. These are my favorite amps at the moment, and should drive your 801s to the fullest. |
I just came in from the studio listening to the speakers and I really like them. They are very different from the Klipschorns which is what I want. Smooth with a strong low end and good clear mids. After trying both the Parasound and the MAC I can hear that I need a really good SS amp with an appropriate amount of power.
I will hold off on the crossovers as you guys suggest. I am used to guitar amps and they need frequent cap changes if they are to sound right so it made sense to me that a speaker this old would probably need some new caps. I will order some stands soon. How tall would you go? I have been on Ebay checking out the BAF but there were none for sale last I checked. They seem to go from $250-$350. I will get one when I have the opportunity.
Ct0157, The Krells have not been serviced. I just mentioned them because they are here locally and I know nothing about them. I don't plan on using the MC275 or the C2300 with the 801s. I want to go with something different. I listen to vinyl and cds and I very much doubt that I will ever progress beyond that. The cabinets are in good shape...an imperfection here or there but really in clean original condition. Don't apologize for the long post. Your posts are always full of good information and very much appreciated. I read and read them as I do the whole thread.
ELEE, thanks clarifying your advice on the crossovers. I was about to pull the trigger.... now I will wait.
Frogman, I really like things that sound good. I doubt I listen to music the exact same way you guys do since I am a musician and not an audiophile but how music sounds is extremely important to me. I have chased the perfect guitar/amp for my whole career. I routinely tweak on my gear and acquire more (sound familiar?) I have a pretty good vintage guitar/amp collection all acquired in the pursuit of trying to get the best tone. I really like things that sound good. As a musician I am an analog guy. I am a tube amp guy. My newest guitar is a 1966. I have always worked on my music gear and was never knowledgable enough about audio gear to have as good of a system as I always wanted. In the last year or so I have been trying to correct that. I am currently trying to learn and acquire. I want my studio to roll my socks up and down every time I turn something on in there.
Oh, and the MC 275 is not even in the ballpark.
So far, the Forte and the VTL 300 have been suggested. Now that you guys know a little bit more about me and what I am looking for I really need some more suggestions about which amp I need. Remember, I have no idea how to pick one so don't assume I know anything because I really don't. You guys would be surprised how much I learn from your posts.
Keep the advise coming. I really need and appreciate it. |
When you set up the BAF there are two rows of pins on the circuit board, one for each speaker with 10 pins locations that you set either (on or off) for each matrix speaker 800 - 805.
All 800 series matrix line utilize different pin arrangements per B&W testing. Switch Pin Settings- - |
When you say that the Mac "simply doesn't have enough horsepower" is it a borderline case or not even in the ballpark? Frogman this reminded me of something that I feel is really important regarding the 801 but also the other matrix line as well. We have already discussed how the speakers were designed to work with the bass alignment filter - aka an equalizer. The BAF has two benefits and if your amp is borderline SS or Tube - the BAF can only help and this is why. First - it makes the speaker more efficient. I have had discussions with B&W on this to confirm it. But they don't have the measurements. Secondly and one of the reasons they become more efficient. If you play vinyl, much of it has subsonic frequencies recorded in the grooves. The BAF has a 19 hz cutoff. This means the amp's energy reserve is not wasted playing those sub 19 hz frequencies, making the woofers pump. leaving its power reserve for what you can hear feel above 20hz. In effect giving it more headroom. All speakers benefit from amps which have lots of headroom. This is why its important for Wemfan or any one else to try to get the most powerful amps they can SS or Tube and not just amp/s that will work for the situation. Too many 801s are just hooked up to HT receivers because it works. There is a rumble filter on my preamps but I choose not to use them as they are too close to the vinyl source for me. Since the speakers are designed to be used with their own spec'ed out factory filter - this is much different. When you set up the BAF there are two rows of pins on the circuit board, one for each speaker with 10 pins locations that you set either (on or off) for each matrix speaker 800 - 805. All 800 series matrix line utilize different pin arrangements per B&W testing. An observation When I got the 800's I pulled the woofers and brought them in to get checked out. One of the tests they do is placing the woofers magnet end on the table and hooking it up to a cd that plays a test signal at 20, 25, 30 hz. This signal is stronger than anything we will ever (or should ever send the woofer) through normal use. With the test the woofer starts oscillating up and down the cone. This shows if all parts are working properly. So if your amp is borderline - the BAF will only help you. At first when you hook it up it will seem as though you have made the sound more lean as the 100 hz plateau is removed. This also allows for better positioning in smaller rooms. Wemfan - are you able to identify music you have with 20-30 hz material in it. if so in your large room there may be enough space, as ZB said to allow them to bloom without the filter..... I can recommend a few from last night. Count Basie - Party Patricia Barber - Companion Beatles - Abbey Road - side two Dead Can Dance - Anastassis Lorde Sarah McLachlan - Solace, Fumblin for Ecstasy Frogman you mentioned VTL - Poster Vegasears uses VTL's. I know people who use various SS, and Tube. Tube including Push Pull (most common), OTL's and even one that uses a SET with his 801 in a small room. he doesn't listen to music with a lot of bass however. So the type of music you like to listen to plays a big factor here. TLS49 - do you recall the type of music you demoed the 801's with when people auditioned them ? Cheers |
Tls49 posted: "IMHO, since you have just acquired the speakers, it would be best to keep things simple for a while in trying to achieve some system synergy. I agree with others that crossover mods should be on the back burner."
Great advise. Congratulations and enjoy! |
Excellent points. I was not aware that the MC275 can be easily configured for use in mono (nor that there are nine different versions-yikes!). That makes a second Mac an even more attractive option IMO. |
I agree that a second MC275 might be an option, however, it should be identical to the one you currently have. Looking at the Berners McIntosh Site, you can see that there are 9 different versions of the MC275. While some may sound the same, it is well known that some do sound different, especially the original. Also, it would be best to use them configured as mono, and not vertical bi-amp. With the woofer being the most demanding for power, it makes better sense to have 150w on the entire speaker, than to have 75w on the woofer and another 75w on the midrange/tweeter separately. When bi-amping, it is generally recommended to use an active external crossover bypassing internal crossover, which complicates things even more. IMHO, since you have just acquired the speakers, it would be best to keep things simple for a while in trying to achieve some system synergy. I agree with others that crossover mods should be on the back burner. Did you ever say what preamp you are using with the MC275? |
