B&W Matrix 801 Series II

First, realize that you will get some polarizing answers on this site, as there are some who dislike the B&W sound.

You should check out the review of this exact model at the Stereophile website : http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/506/index.html. Note the follow up with the graphs. There is also another article, where they asked John Bowers (the B of B&W)how he tested his studio monitors for accuracy. He replied that he used panels of musicians, recorded cuts, then they listened to playbacks of the recordings on the speakers. They then tweaked the speakers based on feedback from the musicians.

IMHO,you would be hard pressed to find a full range brand new pair at this price & quality.

There are some who say that they do not image & soundstage realistically - not true. They will reproduce what is on the recording. If you know someone who has the Decca/London AIDA w/ Karajan (CD or LP), & if you look at the photos of recording session of Triumphal march session, you can clearly hear the precise placement of the various singers, choirs, stage band, etc. in both L-R and front to back positions. The vocals are precise in space, properly sized, not overly large in the soundstage.

Some say they cannot play rock or Jazz well. Nonsense. Listen to Coltrane's Crescent album or Tal Wilkenfeld's Transformation CD, or Zep's Achilles Last Stand (Presence). The bass lines go deep, are punchy, but you can still delineate the actual notes, plus the kick drums clearly punch through electric bass.

They are the monitors used by most classical labels (Universal Music Group, Pentatone), Abbey Road, Skywalker Sound. Epica (Dutch Symphonic Metal Band ) albums were monitored using I believe BW Nautilus 802's (They can be seen on one of the DVD documentaries that came w/ the album).

All this being said, there are several caveats.
They will not editorialize the sound. So many rock & pop recordings will sound as bad as they truly are (Van Halen albums come to mind). That's a personal decision. I want to hear what is there. On the MFSL CD reissue of Ronstadt's Prisoner in Disguise ,she is truly in the room w/ you/ but the speaker also reveals that the drums were recorded in a tiny control space (or miked to closely). Check out the SACD of Shelby Lynne's Just A Little Lovin' for a "you are there" experience.

They will reveal what is upstream, so if you use less than stellar front end equipment, they will show it. Don't even think about using a receiver to drive them. These babies are rather inefficient (87 db), and can take up to 600W. I'd recommend at least 150 : 200-250 would be better. You also want an amp that can comfortably drive speaker impedances of 4 Ohms. They also need to be properly placed w/in the room.

It's true that the weak link of this speaker is the crossover. I've upgraded mine. You also do need the bass alignment filter, which did not always come with the original purchase. Some people say it muddies the sound, but I prefer to use it. I've also upgraded this to an aftermarket product. That being said, I could happily live w/ the speaker stock.

You should check the surrounds on the drivers, especially the woofer units. If the owner took proper care, they should NOT be deteriorated. The drive units are no longer available from B&W. The speakers really need to be on dedicated stands to reach their potential (Sound Anchors). The speakers came with metal spikes that screwed into the bottom. You should also check that the bottom cover is not cracked. This is where the crossover is. The cover itself is rather flimsy.

I bought mine in 1989. When the Signature 800 came out in the early 2000's for the then outrageous amt. of $20K, I was seriously thinking about upgrading, but was talked out of it by a local dealer, who thought that the cost did not justify the increase in performance.

Hope this helps.

Tls49-
No offense meant. In fact, I too used to practice my electric guitar to the stereo. I found that I had to either turn the guitar amp (Fender ChampII 70W) way down or away from me, or crank up the stereo to be able to hear both. In my room of 9X15X30, I sit about 10' from the speakers. At normal listening levels, I get about 80-85 db at the sweet spot. To get 90db+, I need to increase the volume to past 2/3, which I don't like to do.

Wemfam-

Speakers are about 9-9.5" off the floor. B&W made purpose built stands, of course no longer available. Arcic made a sand-filled box, which you could probably do yourself. I bought my Sond Anchors used ( still available direct, bu pricey).

See the following thread RE: the crossovers - http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=speakers&m=274098.
The upgrade is available from here - http://www.northcreekmusic.com/801web.html
Realize, I had these speakers 22 years before upgrading. The increase in sound quality is not night & day (IMO), but for me, worth it. the bass goes deeper, is more punchy & tight, & there is a sense of unrestrained openness.

RE the BAF-
1) B&W made one as an option. They are available frequently on ebay (look for either the model for the 801 matrix or the variable model for the 800 matrix). I wouldn't pay more than $150-175.
2) Hifi dealer in Colo. Listen Up made the Maughanbox. I paid $400 on ebay for mine.
3) JPS labs made aftermarket filters. IMHO, not worth what people are asking for them used ($900+)
4) Krell made an after market unit that was adjustable for the 800 Matrix line. Probably the best of the bunch, but going for around $1500+ when you can find them. (Dan D'Agostino [started Krell amps] made these for his personal B&W speakers at the time. B&W heard about it and suggested to Dan to sell them to B&W owners).

If you do audition the speakers, IMO I would place a throw rug between the speakers & your listening spot, otherwise you may find the speakers too bright.

Regarding the amp, the Parasound is probably acceptable. I'm currently using a Krell KAV-250, which is probably about the same. I'm convinced that I have not even come close to the potential of the speakers.

Depends what factors are important to the OP.
Magnepan 1.7- freq response 40hz-24khz- not quite full range
Sensitivity-86db at 4 ohms retail $2K. Would definitely need wattage.

Vandersteen 3a -freq response 30hz - 22khz - still not quite full range
Sensitivity-87 db at 6 ohms. No better efficiency
Retail-$4500

Regards

Wemfan,

W/out going into to much detail, in order to make the speakers more mobile, the crossovers where cramed to fit into bottom of the speakers. Because of this resulted in compromises in parts quality, inductor crosstalk, and rather small iron core coils that saturated too quickly, resulting in decreases in dynamics & bass quality.

The NC crossovers simply replicated B&W's specs, but w/ high grade parts, a more spacious layout, and a huge copper air coil. It also bypasses the overload circuit, which also compromised sound quality.

As I said before, I could live happily w/ the speakers as stock. The NC crossovers, and other mentioned tweaks make a great speaker that much better. As an aside, I powered these with a 150W amp for years before upgrading. The great thing w/ 1st class speakers is that as you upgrade whats in front of the chain, everything just sounds better.

Dave 72- I believe the S3 crossover simplified the topology, used better crossover coils, eliminated the Zobel network across the woofer, & eliminated the APOC protection. Also, I think the S3 tweeter was ferro-fluid filled, whereas the S2 tweeter was not. Am unsure whater the firbercrete mid-tweet unit remained removable or not.

Cheers!

Wemfan-
All I can say is that after I got the crossovers, I was satisfied. Was the difference night & day, no, more like dusk & day. If I'm not mistaken, isn't there a return option on the Northcreeks if you are not satisfied? It was like removing an semi-translucent veil.

Like I said, I would be happy w/ the stock speakers. If you haven't already, do yourself a favor & read the Stereophile review, including the follow up, which states that even years after the original, the speakers were equivalent to speakers costing up to $13,000. That was in the mid-90s. I'd venture you would have to spend more than that now to get something equivalent. The JBL L300 from only a few years before the 801 S2, is currently selling for MORE than what they cost back then. Even at a cost of around 4K(including the NC's), I think you would be hard pressed,to find something new that is equally transparent and is truly full range ( ie reaches down to 20Hz).

If you get these and are ultimately not happy, you could probably turn around & sell them for not much loss. I can say that I thought long & hard before getting the NC crossovers. I scoured the net & read up on all the discussions I could find. I did not find anyone that had aquired the NC's that were dis-satisfied. It was also my impression that there are an equal number of people who acquired the 801s used who did not bother to get the crossovers & were perfectly happy.

Dave72-
As stock, probably. I have not heard them in person, so cannot comment. Again, via net scuttlebutt, some people prefer the sound of the S2 tweeter, supposedly less harsh, & some infer that the S2 w/ the NC crossover is as good, if not better than the S3.

Maybe CT0517 could chime in - Frankly, if I had the $$$, I would upgrade to the matrix 800, but that would need some serious amp power, & possibly more room than I have now.

Cheers

Wemfan-
Glad the purchase has worked out for you.
Price you paid was good. Until you decide to get the Sound Anchor Stands (the 801S2 differs from the 801S3), I would suggest dialing in the position of the speakers first, perhaps waiting until you get an amp that matches up well.

When you have dialed in the position, I would suggest that you try the speakers with the spikes ( there are holes in the bottom of the cabinet. The stainless steel spikes came with the speakers when I bought mine new). If you didn't get them, they are available on ebay occasionally. This way , you can tell if there is any difference in sound, although the Sound Anchor stands are the way to go.

Regarding the NC crossover upgrade, I would probably wait a while. IMHO, they make a difference, but again, it is a shade difference, not a primary color difference. Remember that you do have to cut the connection to the original crossovers to connect to the NC's, plus you are eliminating the tweeter protection circuit. I left the originals in the bottom of the cabinet, and the wires to the NC's crossovers are coming out from the bottom of the speakers. This way, the original XOver can be re-connected if there ever is a need.

In the years I have had these speakers, the APOC protection circuit has only cut in 2 times, both times w/ the standard CD issue of Pink Floyd's Dark Side Of The Moon, on the cut with the alarm clocks (I was probably listening at about 85-90 dbs). On that CD issue, at least, there was clear distortion in the audio. At this time, I was using a Yamaha M-80 power amp, which was supposedly Class A/AB. This is the interesting part. The specs for the amp were 250W into 8 ohms, 330W into 4 ohms. Bought the amp new, and the amp got fried within 4 years. Then I upgraded to the Krell-KAV150, which ONLY put out 150W. The Krell ( remember that this is Krell's budget line, way inferior to the FPB high end line at the time) CLEARLY blew away the Yamaha in terms of delicacy, warmth, slam, and a sense of unrestrained power.
As an aside, while researching a replacement amp for the Yamaha, I inserted an old SAE Mark XXXIB amp into the chain, which is only rated at 50Wpc. Surprisingly, aside from a little bit of harshness, and a reduction in the the sense of front to back depth of filed,the SAE held its own.

Cheers