Hi Wemfan - look forward to hearing how you make out; whichever speaker direction u choose. Cheers
B&W Matrix 801 Series II
There is a pair for sale in my area for $2000. Anyone have an opinion on these speakers? Are they good sounding speakers or just okay? I believe they are pretty old. My interest in them is because they are local so no shipping and I understand B&W makes some very good speakers. Thanks for the help.
Showing 34 responses by ct0517
Hi Wemfan Are they good sounding speakers or just okay? My experience is they will sound as good as the equipment in front of them; and when placed properly in a room, can be very good. For these two reasons - if you can say what amplification you will you be using, and provide room dimensions, I can provide you with an opinion based on this info. Also If you choose to go see them I can give you some advice on how to determine if any of their previous owners abused them. Cheers |
The room is about 29'x29'x11'. I am under the impression they need a lot of power. that is one really nice sized room. if you look at my virtual system at the 801 heading - you will see a pic of the s3 in a room that is a backwards 7 shape. They are in the top part of the 7 which is a space about 17 - 25. You will also see a pic of them in another room in nearfield. Two different objectives. So it depends on your objectives - how close u will sit - spl levels, type of music. In my experience they need "quality" power at just above 4 ohms for the amp to be able to control the woofers and still have what it takes for the mid/highs. if the amp gets taxed out on the low end you will experience brighter/harsher sounds. I base this is on my listening. They are not forgiving in this regard at all . this is the reason for needing the better quality gear in front - the better gear the better they will sound. there are no shortcuts here. They are not plug and play audiophile speakers. They are like trying to tame a wild horse. If you are willing to make a commitment and work with them they will reward you. You will also need to get them off their castors and up in the air. My best pieces are a Mac c2300 and MC275. for your room this will depend on how close you will be sitting to the 801's. 25 feet or 10-15 feet ? I get excellent results with both SS and Tube. My tube amp Music Reference RM9 set at 4 ohms. It is conservatively rated for 100 wpc but it is imo more - I think I have read 125 wpc soomewhere but not sure - and with KT88 tubes. If this is more of a room where you want to fill the whole space I would go with SS and as much quality wattage as possible. Doubling down from 8 ohms to 4 ohms. A local repair shop has them is why I am interested. this is actually a good thing imo. Have a look at the woofers screws - have they been pulled before? Have the shop take the woofers out - rest them on a table with the magnets down. they have rubber surrounds so there will be no rot like other speakers that use foam or other material. Manually extend the cones slowly and gently - fully with both hands upwards and then push them down gently. this should be very smooth with no scratchy sounds at all. The wires surrounding the voice coils are covered with a clear lacquer. If the 801's have been abused - mostly meaning under powered, the amplifier would have been clipping and sending heat to the coils. this warps and actually melts the lacquer covering the coil wires which is needed for smooth travel. if you hear a scratchy noise when moving the cones the coils need to be replaced - Easily done at a speaker coning place. But the price needs to be factored in. Also have a look at the spiders. how taut are they. If they are really loose and flabby it indicates previous owners caused alot of excessive woofer movement. there will be some movement but they shouldn't feel flabby loose. this happens alot with vinyl guys that didn't use the bass alignment filter they came with. LOL. they were designed by John Bowers to use a BAF to be able to achieve 20 hz. with their size cabinet, and also control subsonic frequencies which cause cone excursions and intermodulation distortion. anyway The woofers can be re-spider-ed with same compliant spiders and brand new voice coils put in for about $150.00 each. this $300 needs to be factored in. Sorry for the excessive brain dump and detail - hope this helps? Do they come with the factory bass alignment filters or stands ? |
Wemfan If I acquire the speakers then I will need some help selecting an amplifier. Wemfan - Good luck with them. We're here to help. Its always a lot of fun spending others peoples money picking out gear. :^) If you do get them let us know what the budget is for amp/s and how they sound with your existing amps first. I am really curious to hear how the Mc tube amp set at 4 ohms, sounds in nearfield with music focusing on strings and vocals. Cheers |
Hi Wemfan another long post - sorry - as I have my coffee and the caffeine kicks in. :^( I am leaning toward seeing if I can borrow them for a test drive Right on - there is no better way - in your own room with your own equipment. I do have a Parasound A31 3 channel amp that is 250 watts @8ohm. It will work to try out the speakers. I have not heard that amp. But remember you are asking this question on the speaker forum You will get audiophile 2 channel nut jobs -myself included - answering. If you ask this question on the Home Theater forum you would probably get a different response So take this with a grain of salt. The A31, like all Halo-branded amplifiers, is a high-bias Class A-AB amplifier, meaning the first few watts - in this case seven - are delivered in pure Class A fashion before switching over to AB status. taken from here. http://hometheaterreview.com/parasound-a31-three-channel-power-amplifier/ In comparison my old Classe CA300 two channel amp stayed in class A for 30 watts. So this Parasound was designed for Home Theater - again my opinion. The 801's are revealing and will let you know when the amp is in A/B. I am looking for a smoother sound compared to the Khorn system. Something clear and musical Are you looking for an addictive midrange combined with liquid and shimmering highs ? If SS you need to stay with Class A as long as possible. The 801's are just too revealing. Definitely try your McIntosh set at 4 ohms sitting closer. Also not to get ahead of ourselves but your parasound has gain controls. I would try hooking it up to the woofers and hooking your McIntosh on the mids and tweeters. Adjusting the parasound gain to where you have your preferred tonal balance. bass/mid/highs. But this "IS" getting ahead of ourselves....... Also, you guys mentioned getting them up high. How high? I would listen to them on their castors/spikes first - then try them higher later. The Sound Anchor stands are very expensive. Some more facts you should be aware of : Two matrix versions of 801's were made s2 and s3. There are differences. S3 used a different crossover than s2 - less component count. Better isolated mid and hf boards. Bass inductors with an iron dust core . Rotating midrange – tweeter head assembly was permanently connected. (from 3 to 4 pin delivering separate ground signals to midrange and tweeter) Magnetic fluid cooling of the tweeter (like the 800 matrix) - the reason the apoc protection eliminated (circuits needed for this were also removed) imo - the S2 is great candidate for a crossover upgrade. I have a couple of friends that have done this. Thread poster Elee has also done this with his S2. The S3 is not as great a candidate for the reasons above. This is a personal call. I came real close to doing the upgrade with Northcreek. I had a number of direct discussions with B&W senior people - they convinced me not to do it with the S3. this included identifying the listed differences between them. Its a $2500 cost to do if I recall. So botomline all this makes the stock factory 801 S3 more desirable than the Stock factory 801 S2. prices reflect this. fwiw - I drove 10 hours one way to pick up my S3 in '94. And returned same day. The 801's always seem to become available locally when you are not looking for them. Funny how this works. So local 801's you can pick up are rare. Either way 801 S2 or 801 S3 stock - you can buy and try and sell for same or more money if it doesn't work out. What other speaker can claim this - I'd like to know brand/model names. Its a win -win situation for everything except your back to carry the damn things. I see alot of value $$$ just in the matrix cabinetry on its own - without considering the electronics and drivers. I also own B&W DM70's - Electrostat hybrids from the 70's. Their cabinet construction still to today hasn't degraded. I appreciate quality like this. Wemfan - the B&W filter/equalizer comes up occasionally here and on Ebay, or kijiji, etc... Usually around $150 - 250 from what I have seen. I own Krell, Maughan and B&W versions. You can read more about them here. http://kenrockwell.com/audio/b-w/800-series-bass-alignment-filter.htm Tls49 Hi Tls49 - am curious. Which speakers with which amps ? Cheers |
Hi Elee - regarding the different 800 series BAF's/Equalizers. Comparing the Maughan box and Krell the Maughan box alters B&W parameters and provides a 6 db punch in the low end. In my room this provides for a warmer sound - less resolution as more bass emphasis obscures some midrange/hf detail in the room. The Krell follows the B&W parameters. There is more resolution detail, the bass is punchier. Better tonal balance - bass/mids/highs overall - imo. But this also exposes bad recordings more. The preamp I use has variable gain. Turning the gain down on those recordings makes the recordings at least listenable so I can enjoy the music. Although the Krell is the most expensive it is worth it imo both from a sonics and build perspective. However - If placing any 800 matrix series speaker in a livelier room; the Maughan will tame the highs better if room treatment is not an option. Cheers Cheers |
Phasecorrect - Factor in sound, performance, value, resell, warranty, and convenience going new becomes more aytractive. Provide brand & model of just ONE example of a new speaker that is: 1) Full range 2) Within the price ranges being discussed 3) that doesn't lose big time depreciation as soon as you walk out the door with them. I'd like to know what it is. |
Hi Tls49 I disagree with your bi-amping suggestion, as this will create a coherence problem. Here's my take on it. for myself my Quad 57's with the RM10 amp are very coherent and are a mid frequency reference for me. They help keep me honest to myself and in check when I play in this hobby. I have always needed to hear things for myself. So, if I already own the gear needed; and what I am thinking of doing will NOT: 1) blow up my speakers 2) make my amp/s self destruct 3) cause other harm; like make my dog run in circles then I say - go for it and give it try - as you will learn first hand what this sounds like yourself. Quite a time ago I tried biamping with two different amps. It sounded ok not perfect, but it did give me a glimpse of what having SS on woofers and Tubes on mids and tweeters can sound like. If I wanted to go further with this it would have required an expensive active crossover. I didn't pursue it further. Cheers |
How about the price? Does $2k seem about right for these speakers? Wemfan - There are three - Series 2 and one Series 3 available on Audiogon right now. 801 Matrix for sale on Audiogon Based on the sellers pics only - imo just one of these sellers shows any real knowledge for proper setup of these speakers. They need room to breathe. If you were planning on putting them into a shared living space I would not recommend them at all as they will cause problems with your spouse and neighbors. Since they are being considered for a dedicated space/studio I look forward to your impressions, if you decide to bring them home. They cost $500 to ship. So in a case like this the original boxes are worth $200 to me. A full ten percent. Which is why I made the previous comment about local ones. the current going rate IMO is around $2500 for clean, fully functional versions. Give or take a couple hundred either way based on owner history and condition. fwiw This is half what they cost new and anyone who knows what these speakers are about; knows they were well under priced for the "audiophile" market when new, based on what they were and still are capable of when set up right. B&W finally realized the business error of their ways after John Bowers passing (RIP), and came out with new versions at double the price after the S3. With that this is a serious buyers market as we all know and I have tremendous respect for those that are trying to make a living in this audio business. Cheers |
the current going rate IMO is around $2500 for clean, fully functional versions. Give or take a couple hundred either way based on owner history and condition. just to add proper stands add value for me. The Sound Anchors stands if I recall are $600 to buy new today. http://soundanchors.com/products/2072/matrix I would therefore see an extra $250 value if anyone was selling 801 matrix that came with them. Of those for sale in the previous link two come with proper stands. I prefer the SA to the Arcici. |
When you set up the BAF there are two rows of pins on the circuit board, one for each speaker with 10 pins locations that you set either (on or off) for each matrix speaker 800 - 805. Switch Pin Settings - - |
Elee and Linnlp12 thanks for sharing impressions. that was interesting reading. Elee I think the S3 tweeter was ferro-fluid filled Yes - and it was technology brought in from success with the matrix 800 - It is the main reason the protection circuits were no longer needed and removed from the S2. Linnlp12 - congrats on those ARC amps. I would be very interested in your impressions on using the 4 ohm taps. Wemfan The speakers are rated 50 - 600 wpc at 8 ohms. From my experiences what actual wattages are needed from a capable amp will be based on size of space, how close you will be sitting to them, the kind of music genre you will be playing, and how loud. Wemfan - can you tell us what kind of music, and how loud it will be from your sitting distance ? Here is the speaker impedance graph for the 801 matrix from B&W. 801 Matrix Impedance graph If anyone contacts them at support@bowers-wilkins.com, they will send you this same graph. Note the 4 ohm symbol on the left and frequencies on the bottom. You can see the lowest they dip is just around 5 ohms and they do this at these frequencies. HZ - 20, 60-100, 500, 10k and above. So they need an amp that is 4 ohm capable (stable and powerful) in the low frequencies and high frequencies. My experiences using maybe 8 or 9 amps ? over the last 20 years are they are a fairly easy load as long as the amp can do 4 ohms SS or Tube. You will get sound and they will go loud. But how good it will sound (smooth and musical) in the high frequencies is where the quality of the power comes especially with SS. (i.e.) I ran with Brystons 4nrbs years ago. Great bass but the HF had me running out the door. I would have liked for the Brystons to work out as I live 40 mins from the factory. The Classe amps (another Canadian) - very tubey sounding for SS. But lighter in the bass. Big improvement over the Bryston in the midrange and HF but not the bass. I find when we read specs on amps they always list the 8 ohm nominal figure. Some do not list 4 ohms or 2 ohms. Ensure the wattage doubles down from 8 ohms for a SS amp and ensure the tube amp/s have a 4 ohm tap or are capable at 4 ohms - ask the manufacturer - if considering for these speakers. Happy listening Cheers |
Hi Elee I would upgrade to the matrix 800, but that would need some serious amp power, possibly more room than I have now. Despite their menacing appearance the matrix 800's are the most room friendly speakers I have ever owned. The double woofers top and bottom each excite a different set of waves. result is the waves cancel each other out. the response is very smooth. The cabinet for the upper woofer is even heavier than the bottom one as it doesn't have the floor to help dampen it. the owners manual confirms how different placements worked well during B&W testing. This includes widely spaced and angled in; as well as in a narrow room shooting straight down. Another example of how room friendly they are can also be seen from the actual Stereophile review by musician Lewis Lipnick with his 800's His room was on the small side with low ceilings. I studied them for a number of years thinking about buying them. The only time they come up for sale it seems is if the music lover/audiophile is retiring into a small condo and needs to part with them or Divorce. A retiree is how I happened on mine. Cheers |
Wemfan - good that u got them home safe. With your amazing 29 x 29 x 11 room and no one to tell you how the stuff in the room needs to be arranged; you are seriously this audio hobby's version of a kid in a candy store. can u see us drooling ? If I woke up from dream and was placed in this situation; this is what I would do based on the info you have provided. Initial placement. Place speakers 10 feet out from the front wall and separated by 10 feet. Put your listening chair 10 feet away from them making an equilateral triangle. Try to get your existing amps that you will experiment with as close to the speakers as possible. This will allow for the shortest speakers runs (this is important). Use double runs bi-wire coming from the amps to the speakers. All 800 series I have owned personally - 800(quad wired) , 801, 802, 803, 805 (bi-wired) - benefited 801-805's Matrix series were designed to be biwired and is the reason they have separate bass and mid/tweeter terminals from the factory. The better the amps the more the differences can be heard. 1) Hook up the parasound - listen to the music you like. 2) Repeat with the McIntosh - tapped on its 4 ohm terminals. Note the difference between SS and Tube presentations. 3) If your preamp has two outputs - do the dirty and hook the parasound to the bass terminals and the Mc to the Mid/Tweeters. Listen again. Set preamp at 0 gain. Slowly increase with full range music. Adjust the parasound gain controls for tonal balance. All 3 experiments allow you to hear the speakers without the room coming into play too much. Room test Start moving the 801's closer to the room boundaries. You will start to hear the rebounded bass waves come into play. The closer you get to the boundaries the sound will eventually get muddy - too much bass. These are serious monitors with prodigious bass. So you will know in your room when this happens fairly quickly. Amp Test Leave the speakers as be - and move your listening position back in increments. This will put more load on the amps and speakers as you will require more power for the same levels. I expect the McIntosh to cough up its ghost first when used separately. This experiment will give you a good feel for how good your current amps will be for you. Look forward to your impressions as you play ! |
Wemfan - Great news as your speakers are functional. Assuming they are not really flawed cosmetically from being banged around a studio?, I agree with Banquo that you got a steal. fwiw - Last month a Canadian audio friend I know who has owned 801's in the past; purchased 801s again with shipping and he was very happy to pay $2500 plus shipping. They were in very good condition. Btw - its a pleasure for me reading your honest, unbiased responses. I was surprised comparing these amps through the 801s. You could go out and have a cup of coffee and come back and you would have no trouble telling which amp was playing. They sounded that different from each other This can be seen as blessing or a curse - it depends on your point of view. For example if you are an audiophile and a bit of a speaker cable/ wire "nut" - you may end up with 12 wires hanging on a wall somewhere in your house; one for every month ....smartly hidden from your .... wife The last four or five years I ended up with four turntables ...in the same room..... at the same time. I place full blame on the 801's. And if you can't laugh at yourself from time to time; then its time to get out of any hobby. CT0517, I set them up as you said but I didn't run the lows with the Parasound and the higher end with the Mac yet. I forgot about trying it until I reread your post tonight. What is bi-wire? I suspect it is the same as bi-amp? I am familiar with biamping. Remember, I am a musician not an audiophile. :-) In order to become an audiophile you are required to step over to the dark side; do what manufacturers don't want u to do with their products :^) As long as it does not result in conditions discussed earlier. Follow your own road using your own ears. Definitely try this. I think you will be surprised at the results. Remove the jumpers joining the four terminals - put Parasound to the bass terminals - Mc Amp to the Mid/HF connectors. Biwire. With factory jumpers removed. When using just the Mc or the Parasound get another set of identical speaker wire for each speaker. Join the ends at the amp end - two (+) together and two (-) . You can buy banana or spade plugs that do this for you (connect them together) so single plug or spade - results. Be VERY careful not to let wire come loose from the amp input connectors and touch the amp frame. At the speaker end attach one set (+ and -) to the high and one set to the lows. As the 801 do hit 5 ohms it is important to keep the wires short and decent quality. Don't mix and match the wires going to the mid/highs andf lows- keep them the same. The last I had the 801 set up was with OTL amplifiers. OTL means Outboard Transformer Less. Meaning the main power transformers are not on the amp plinth where the tubes reside. In this pic the main amplifier transformers are located outside of the picture area. The speaker cables are only a few feet long biwired. click me Like ZEN, I thought the very upper end seemed not quite as good as the rest of the tonal spectrum. We should discuss this as it is the most common complaint from audiophiles on forums. The good news is the speakers are fine, functional and and working as designed. There are TWO parts to fix this - imo. if its not resolved with part one - part two will clinch it. PART ONE is understanding their design and objective. I felt that the Stereophile review did a real good job summing them up based on my experiences. From Stereophile (re: S2 review) "Higher in frequency, the response trend (averaged across a 30 degrees lateral window on the tweeter axis) is basically flat, but with a slight excess of energy in the presence region and a corresponding lack of energy in the top octave. All things being equal, this will make the speaker both a little too revealing of recorded detail and somewhat fussy when it comes to the quality of source and amplification components, just as LL noted in his auditioning comments." So we need a good source, preamp and amp/s, as we have discussed and as you have realized as well. PART TWO of the problem. Right now you are hearing a tonal imbalance based on your comments and it is causing the highs to stand out or not be as good as they should be. See the attached frequency chart from B&W on the 801's. 801 w &w/o filter in place The plotted chart is the 801's without the BAF. Note how even though you think you are hearing good bass right now the db levels for the bass whether with SS or Tube are really dropping off starting at 100 hz. In a smaller room that 100hz plateau will cause real boom problems and the room will need to be treated. The dotted lines have been drawn by B&W and show how the 801's measured with and without the BAF. See how the dotted line drawn in by B&W for the BAF works on my sample makes the bass more linear. The lows are boosted increasing DB's and this establishes tonal balance by ensuring a flatter plot line. I don't have the actual plotted graph with the BAF. The result of this is the bass notes will be clearer, and you will hear music notes on material below 40 hz from the source. You are clearly hearing the differences between the amps now. imo you will therefore clearly hear the difference with the BAF on music that has sub 40 hz music. In technical terms the BAF converts them from a 4th to a 6th order butterworth alignment; with a 19 hz cutoff and boosts the low frequency. Regarding the Krell amps you mentioned I will / can provide more info on this later as I have run way too long here. We would need to discuss if the Krells have been recapped for example. I think these are "one" example of a truly excellent candidate and would be awesome in that large room of yours. But $5000 is a big budget used as many amp candidates exist used including SS and tube designs. I can tell you I know that your current preamp MC 2300 is compatible with the Krell mentioned because it has capacitors coupled to the outputs to protect against a tube ever blowing and sending DC current to the Krell amp.... as the Krell design has no fuses to protect it if this happened. I have been down this road already because I also am using a Tube preamp albeit with a SS power supply, with my Krell amp right now. As far as the speakers go; fwiw myself I would leave the crossovers for now - as they are not broken. Get the BAF, get the stands, Get amp/s first. Here them as John Bowers envisioned first. You can always mod them later if desired. To understand what the stands will do with proper amps a picture is sometimes worth a thousand words and gives you a glimpse of what these speakers are capable of. original 801s s80..not matrix on stands...not designed to use BAF Wemfan - Can I ask if you are an all digital setup (i.e. cd, file streaming) and/or do you play vinyl or plan on later ? Sorry for the long post ....again. Cheers |
When you say that the Mac "simply doesn't have enough horsepower" is it a borderline case or not even in the ballpark? Frogman this reminded me of something that I feel is really important regarding the 801 but also the other matrix line as well. We have already discussed how the speakers were designed to work with the bass alignment filter - aka an equalizer. The BAF has two benefits and if your amp is borderline SS or Tube - the BAF can only help and this is why. First - it makes the speaker more efficient. I have had discussions with B&W on this to confirm it. But they don't have the measurements. Secondly and one of the reasons they become more efficient. If you play vinyl, much of it has subsonic frequencies recorded in the grooves. The BAF has a 19 hz cutoff. This means the amp's energy reserve is not wasted playing those sub 19 hz frequencies, making the woofers pump. leaving its power reserve for what you can hear feel above 20hz. In effect giving it more headroom. All speakers benefit from amps which have lots of headroom. This is why its important for Wemfan or any one else to try to get the most powerful amps they can SS or Tube and not just amp/s that will work for the situation. Too many 801s are just hooked up to HT receivers because it works. There is a rumble filter on my preamps but I choose not to use them as they are too close to the vinyl source for me. Since the speakers are designed to be used with their own spec'ed out factory filter - this is much different. When you set up the BAF there are two rows of pins on the circuit board, one for each speaker with 10 pins locations that you set either (on or off) for each matrix speaker 800 - 805. All 800 series matrix line utilize different pin arrangements per B&W testing. An observation When I got the 800's I pulled the woofers and brought them in to get checked out. One of the tests they do is placing the woofers magnet end on the table and hooking it up to a cd that plays a test signal at 20, 25, 30 hz. This signal is stronger than anything we will ever (or should ever send the woofer) through normal use. With the test the woofer starts oscillating up and down the cone. This shows if all parts are working properly. So if your amp is borderline - the BAF will only help you. At first when you hook it up it will seem as though you have made the sound more lean as the 100 hz plateau is removed. This also allows for better positioning in smaller rooms. Wemfan - are you able to identify music you have with 20-30 hz material in it. if so in your large room there may be enough space, as ZB said to allow them to bloom without the filter..... I can recommend a few from last night. Count Basie - Party Patricia Barber - Companion Beatles - Abbey Road - side two Dead Can Dance - Anastassis Lorde Sarah McLachlan - Solace, Fumblin for Ecstasy Frogman you mentioned VTL - Poster Vegasears uses VTL's. I know people who use various SS, and Tube. Tube including Push Pull (most common), OTL's and even one that uses a SET with his 801 in a small room. he doesn't listen to music with a lot of bass however. So the type of music you like to listen to plays a big factor here. TLS49 - do you recall the type of music you demoed the 801's with when people auditioned them ? Cheers |
Tls49 - my apologies - when you post running to long in your own post ...you should heed your own advice. my bad. Excuse my excitement - you see I just bought this real nice 9.9 merc 4 stroke motor at bass pro shops at 1/3 off (if this winter ever ends) and have "outboard" on the brain. Yes output. thank u. but word technicalities aside... this hobby has no real reference standards....so...imo the main transformers I referenced in discussion really are... "out board", rather than ....."inboard" for the boaters among us....another hobby..... fwiw I also picked up a nice little portable "dipole" fish finder. it shoots beams down and sideways...not to be confused with dipole speakers....which haven't yet entered the discussion here. But wait someone did mention Maggies earlier....my bad again... cheers |
Boats never crossed my mind. Hi Tls49 - here is what gave me "Outboard" on my mind What better place to share a great boat motor deal than on an audio speaker forum ? I bought one yesterday and the audio repercussions for my dealer are I won't be pouncing on that DAC I have been eyeing. Wemfan - sorry for my off topic post. |
Wemfan - $5000 will do it for the amp/s imo. Here are some thoughts for you since I recently went through this exercise with amp/s - TWO TIMES - in the last 12 months. First - It is important to run the 801's with the woofer covers removed. This will help let you know how much they like what is in front of them. If there is visible woofer pumping going on - cone excursion - there is a problem. Unlike lesser speaker designs that readily pump by design - and I include the other matrix consumer models 802, 803, 805.... in this statement having owned them; You should NEVER see cone excursions with the 801's large woofer (even with vinyl) when set up with compatible amp/s and the BAF. This means they are performing at their best - energy is not being wasted on the woofer movement. Much dust collected on the woofers due to this. When buying amps I usually do research with the amp manufacturers and the specific speaker/s they used to come up with their designs. The targets or reference points. If this information is not available (friends, websites, forums) they "manufacturer" should be contacted. If the "manufacturer" won't divulge what their reference speakers are - I strike them off my list. Ensure their speaker references have similar amplifier requirements to your speakers. Many times we can put two and two together. For example if the manufacturer of the amps and speakers are in the same city - chances are they have worked together. This is a VERY niche and SMALL hobby. An example of one speaker/amp relationship is my Music Reference RM10 which was designed by Roger Modjeski specifically for his personal Quad 57's. Sometimes when you bring speaker/amp partners together - the synergy becomes very evident. There is a relaxed delivery that starts at low volume and continues at high spls. It is hard to describe but when you hear and feel it - you know it. I can tell you when I hooked up the Krell FPB600 to the 800's there was synergy. When I swapped in the Krell BAF there was even more. Things kind of fell in place. Elee's comments earlier about D'Agostino (formerly of Krell) owning the B&W's earlier in his career became evident to me. Krell FPB600 - 600 wpc 8 ohms, 1200 wpc 4 ohms, 2400 wpc 2 ohms. Sample Krell Bass is the foundation of the music for me. Get it right and the rest falls into place. The 801's are 87db sensitivity not dropping below 5 ohms (50- 600 wpc) A fairly easy load and the impedance chart posted earlier is not off the charts - like other speakers. The 800's are 93 db - but are 4 ohms and actually dip below . They are rated for 150-800 wpc. I can tell you there is so much control and headroom with the 800's. The 801's being an easier load would be even more phenomenal imo with a large Krell in that large studio room of yours. With that; the best amp candidates imo are the local ones that can be auditioned in your room. Nothing beats this... So I would strongly consider an audition of the local Krell 350's you mentioned. Ask to borrow them for a couple of days. I would even offer the seller a nominal fee for the privileges this brings you without having to commit to them. This is a "serious" buyers market. There are approximately 650 amps for sale just on Audiogon right now. You want to keep the advantage of being the buyer as long as you can. Once you commit and buy - moving this gear requires ALOT of patience and good pricing if it doesn't work out. Again I will say I have a lot of respect for those in those in this audio BIZ. So what other amps are available locally? Can you tell us what retail high end stores are within driving distances to you? This way we could do a search of their inventory online for you - another option. |
Wemfan If pursuing Pass Labs I highly recommend talking to Kent 5308785350 prior to any actual purchase. He is very friendly, knowledgeable and forthcoming with the information. I was curious so I gave him a call. Told him we were considering using an x.350 on 801 matrix in a room 29x29x11. Some of the speakers currently being tested with at Pass Labs are Sony's SSAR1, Array 1400 and TAD - did not catch the model # of the last one. When I mentioned the matrix 801's some comments were "you mean the boxy ones with smaller boxes/pieces on top of one another" "those were very highly regarded and not difficult to drive at all" He quickly put the impedance info and room size into his online model. the amp info I got from him. x350 was designed around an 8 ohm speaker. the more current product 350.5 is based on a lower 6 ohm speaker. the x350 does double down but it does not like it (Kent's words) Distortion increases. Similarly it would produce half the power at 16 ohms. He suggested that the x250.5 which is also based on a 6 ohm speaker would be a better choice than the x350. The 801 matrix as we saw in the impedance graph - dips to 5 ohms in the bass and HF areas. The rough estimate from Kent is you should be able to hit 105 db peak levels in your room with the x350. Cheers |
Not as squeaky clean sounding as great solid state amps I recently took my 6 year old digital player and 6 of my CD's to a brick and mortar (B&M) store in Toronto to hear it with a current highly respected DAC. Digital Analog Converter. The Amp and Preamp were current Pass Labs products. Speakers were Gerswhin's. The sound was very squeaky clean. I would not tolerate my digital player for 15 mins in my room like that. I attributed it to the room /speaker setup and the fact it was digital. I walked away without a clear sense of what is better for me unfortunately. So it just goes to show there is no substitute for audition in your own room. Frogman - my Krell is anything but squeaky clean sounding. :^) This short thread is any interesting read - I thought. http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1226354800&read Wemfan. I was only a messenger on the PassLabs info. fwiw - that review wasn't very good for me. maybe I missed it but no room, sitting position info. Also if any one is interested check the specs on the speakers used in the review. Not surprising imo he uses a sub. I will post some thoughts later. cheers |
Please post some thoughts. Don't hold back tell me what you think I should do. Wemfan no problem I can do that. first if you can answer a couple questions that would help guide the recommendation. Hypothetical situation Lets say you have had a long day and need to unwind in your studio. Its wasn't a bad day per say; which usually puts me in the wrong frame of mind to want to listen to music. So a productive but long day; and now to help you stabilize (release those endorphin's) you need to hear those vibes from your favorite music. 1) Can u name a sampling of six albums/selections you are going to go for in this situation. Maybe Patti Griffin that you mentioned earlier is one ? 2) Assuming you still have the 10 foot Equilateral triangle layout ? What volume will you play the music at: a) Low volume that allows for conversation with a friend. b) Medium volume 75-80-85 db not including music peaks.(Doctors say our ears are ok for 8 hours a day at 80db) c) Higher volume. 90 db average up - time to get up and do some dancing in the room. (Maybe you are having a party in your studio one day) 3) Of the music selections do any of them fall within the medium or high volume level most of the time ? This info helps me with a recommendation. Look forward to hearing some selections. Cheers |
Frogman you have a way with words to describe sound so I look forward to your description of analog vs digital on the ET2 thread. Also I like how Elee described the difference between stock and Northcreek crossovers. Regarding the NC crossover upgrade, I would probably wait a while. IMHO, they make a difference, but again, it is a shade difference, not a primary color difference. He painted a picture for me with his words. |
Krell fpb600 here's the link again. not affiliated with the ad. fwiw - in Canada this amp was close to $20k when new due to the dollar. If built today I hazard a wild guess at over twice - or more - its new price back then to make today. Finding synergy is the key as Frogman mentioned earlier. imo -synergy means different things for each of us. 1) Some try to buy "Synergy". The latest and greatest products. in my personal experiences - I have not met one satisfied rich audiophile. They trade their gear like their stocks. But I need them because I buy used and take the depreciation - this allows me the cash needed to play with a few other hobbies. 2) Some try to find "Synergy" by DIY (do it yourself). Some build amps, others rip open their speakers and upgrade parts. Others construct turntables ....... :^( - I got lost on this one myself for a good 6 years. 3) Some try to find "Synergy" buy doing as much homework as they can ahead of time. Educating themselves. Before they bring the products in. You seem to be most like this type from the posts to me. This is very good - imo. Type 4 ? For me personally 2 and 3 have produced the longest lasting feeling of satisfaction. Even when I have bought new and it worked out well the feeling of contentment never lasted as long. Probably because I did not learn anything along the way. This is all about the music and how it makes me feel. The equipment part for me is the "hobby part". I need to be learning to stay entertained. When the music itself becomes a means to the end - its time to come up for some air. The symptoms when this happens are pretty clear. Cheers |
My previous post relates to my personal experiences. If any of this info hits home with anyone it is pure coincidence. I was just sharing. Wemfan - I apologize for suggesting you seem to be a fit a certain type. This was wrong and none of my business. I'll just say... I always try to match amp up with speaker. Not speaker with amp. The speaker is what interfaces with the room. On the preamp side - along with being compatible with your amp it needs to serve the needs of your source. We have no information at all on this other than you use cd's and records. We need to know brands, cartridge type, etc... Happy listening. Good luck with your search. Cheers |
Hi Wemfan Due to your large room and the following comments. I never do anything the same way twice. I also listen to a large variety of music which is constantly changing. I listen while I work in the studio moving around to different areas of the room. I listen loud, I listen not so loud. There is no average with me. I go through periods where I listen a lot and periods where I don't. I never warm up my equipment. I have found that with both tubes and SS a warm up helps. My tube pre-amp absolutely needs minimum one hour warm up. Says so right in the manual too. Don't hold back tell me what you think I should do. Acquire a High Pass BAF as it will free "whatever" amp you get from subsonic frequencies. Eliminate woofer pumping. This will lower distortion and make the window of music clearer. It will also boost the lows as designed and give you tonal balance. This is more noticeable with SS I have found. I need a good match for the B&Ws and I am not sure what that is. I listen while I work in the studio moving around to different areas of the room. I listen loud Lets first understand I have made my 801 s3 that I have owned for going on 20 years soon work really great with tubes (PP and special OTL) but not in a room your size; and SS in both smaller and larger rooms. For a plug and play approach I am going back to recommending an already recapped Krell amp/s and this is the reason to cut to the chase. Its a fact. - that the older Krell stuff has synergy with the Matrix 800 Series Line. So much so that they - KRELL - produced their own High Pass BAF for the Matrix line as discussed here. They actually also produced a Krell version of crossovers to run with the four separate cross over drivers on the 800 matrix as well. This holds a lot of weight for me. They understood how the speakers work and were meant to be run. So they are ONE option. Lets finish with an analogy. Lets imagine you work for a boss that loves his wine, a serious wine connoisseur. He has invited you to his house for a wine tasting party, and asked that you bring a favorite bottle of wine. Now lets assume you do have the occasional glass of wine; but you are a beer drinker yourself. So your knowledge of wines is limited leaving you feeling a little unsure. You find out from a co-worker that your boss really loves his red wine; but also learn that his lovely wife prefers white wine. What do you bring over ? Easy - You bring over a bottle of red and a bottle of white. Where am I going with this? Well you said earlier. How about the $10000-$12000 range. So another consideration with a $10k budget. A $5000 (ss ) amp now and another $5000 (tube) amp later. Remember to keep this fun, hope this helps and enjoy the journey. The Krell 600 will make your socks roll up and down in your studio - no matter where you are located in it. Whatever amp you choose it needs to become the alpha over the woofers for best sonics in a room that large. It needs to have total control - this means it needs to stay in cruise mode for its capabilities on the peaks. Not approaching limits. |
Hi Wemfan I will acquire the BAF filter as soon as I can locate one. Thanks for stressing the importance of it. I have a BAF available - if you are not able to source one I can sell one. You can contact me at bcpguy(at)bell(dot)net if interested. What tube pre do you suggest for the Krell amps? If a tube pre as long as the outputs have capacitors coupled to them. What are you looking to improve on with your current preamp? Any problems with it ? I would keep it for now and not change it out until after you hear how it sounds with the amp/s you're thinking of getting. |
I read that it weighs 182 lbs.!!! where there is audiophile will - there is a way. True story. When I went to pick it up - I entered the front door of the sellers house - the lobby area. it was a surprise that we went upstairs instead of downstairs. It was the house of a single person (not married) - this seller. How did I know this ? Well he lived in a two story house and his 2 channel room was the master bedroom on the upper floor.... Nice big room ...... but suspended floors :^( ..... he was using 801 nautilus. His sleeping quarters were I guess one of the smaller guest bedrooms. Only a unmarried guy could get away with this I thought. and I thought I had it good.... How many single female audiophiles reading this ....would give up their master bedroom - the one with double closets for this ? The digital player was the top of the line Wadia and the preamp Pass Labs - X0.2 The main floor itself had a home theater setup with the kitchen next door. Nice touch. We packed the 600 in the ingenious Krell box. The 600 comes with a very unique box - allowing two people to easily place it in the box because it is as you say Wemfan - heavy. You have to see the box itself to understand what I mean. It's really thought out well by Krell. IN fact I was so impressed with the box that if the 600 comes with a Krell box its worth at least $500 more to me just for the box. anyway..... We strapped it to my two wheel dolly. We started slowly down the stairs to the main floor. two levels of... if I remember 10 stairs each. When at the bottom we left the amp on the dolly laid flat - horizontal - in the front hallway - and took a break. We had a pop in his main room. While we were chatting all of sudden there was a loud BANG!!! from the hallway near the amp. The noise accentuated by the narrow front hall way. WTF was all that I could think. It sounded like something in the amp blew up. I was close. one of the tires blew on the dolly holding the amp up...... Looking like the movies where the guy is driving around on one rim after a flat tire, we rolled the crippled dolly and amp the rest of the way to the vehicle and put the amp in. Maybe the wife can move it around for me... My wife helped to lift the 800's into place. I wish now I had taken a picture of her face when they were up. Amps stands with castors - like your 801's if moved around alot. |
I finally brought the Krell 350mcx mono amps home for a demo. Nice ... how long do you have to play with them before having to make a decision ? of course there are things I like about each amp better than the other I'd be interested in any impressions you can share with how they compare to the Parasound and the McIntosh. Do the Krell mono's have what it takes to fill your 30 x 30 x 11 space "comfortably" without clipping ? Regarding amplifier clipping and how to know when it is happening. The B&W Support site has an interesting description of how to know when an amplifier is starting to clip. Taken from the link. How can I tell if the amplifier is clipping? From my experiences on the 801 s3 - clipping becomes much more obvious with a SS amp over Tubes. This is why it is so important imo to ensure your amps/s and especially SS amps are "cruising" - not working hard - when playing peaks in your music. Its frustrating and a wreck of the experience if your into your music and it is sounds lovely; then it reaches a climactic point in the song - you're right there with it - and the balloon bursts as you hear that little bit of harshness kick in. We have all been there ? This could be because the amp is working as designed and just doesn't have enough balls. Or maybe a good indicator that it needs work - ie. maybe the capacitors need to be changed? fwiw - I would put on some nice full orchestral classical music that has huge dynamic swings - starting quiet to loud and back to quiet - passages and "crank it" in your room to find out. This is a test drive and you don't have your wife or neighbors (or the sellers of the amps) telling you to keep it down. :^) Cheers |
I apologize for calling you.....Wemfan, no worries I have been called much worse .....by my wife. Re: Krell Of course, the low end nears perfection but these amps sound good all the way up as well. that is really good news. Sounds like you found "synergy" - do you realize that some audiophiles go in circles for 20 years+ looking for this. Changing gear in and out. Spending big $$$$ Recapping an amplifier is NOT rocket science. The key is to find a good local guy; someone you can drive the amps to within an hour of you. No shipping of heavy amps for me. Too many risks with couriers - ANXIETY filled. A post on audiogon asking for service people in your area would give you an answer if you pursued that route. You would be provided with names/numbers of people who come with reputations having worked on Krells. fwiw - The service is $1200 for a 600, over 200 capacitors are replaced and then you are good for XX years. Another option is to contact Dan D'Agostino direct. Yes D.A. Audiophile rumor has it he (well his techs) will work on the Krells. but you didn't hear it from me. just a messenger. But those 350 monoblocks are still young ? I would not think they would need caps for a while yet- but I am not a fortune teller and provide no guarantees. You are in a good position to know as they are local and are being sold by a friend so they have the history on them. fwiw - have a look at the top screws. Have they ever been off ? If not this means everything is still as it came from the factory. This is a good thing imo as it means they were made on "a good day" 6 months ago my Studer tape deck died for some reason - lost power. My tech thought it was the power supply capacitors. When I brought it over it was another problem. The capacitors were still at full spec. Do u know how old the Studer is ? We hear a lot of doom and gloom on Audiophile forums about capacitors, tubes blowing, etc.... This is the Audiophile paranoia side you're hearing..... Music lovers are more care free ..... They (Music Lovers) are a lot more fun and they listen to better music than Audiophiles :^) Re: MC 452 Another amp I am thinking about is a Mac mc452. How do you think the two amps compare sonically? The Mac I can get a great deal on, would be brand new and has great resale value. How great a deal can u get on the Mc? You don't need to tell us the price. The point being...... can you resell on the market for same money or close to what they cost you if they don't work out? Then it may be worth the effort to bring that amp in just to hear it. A/B that Mc 452 amp with the Krell mono's. I think that everyone on this thread would like to hear you impressions of both as well ? That's a comparison I would personally like to read about. Your space is 30 x 30 x 11. You've told us you like to crank it up and you like to walk around in your studio. This means the amp/s need to fill your whole space not just at your listening chair position. Some of the amps mentioned here. Krell 350 8 Ohms 350 W, 4 ohms 700 W, 2 Ohms 1,400 W Krell 600 8 ohms 600 W, 4 ohms 1200 W, 2 Ohms 2400 W McIntosh 452 450W @ 2, 4 or 8 Ohms Uses Autoformers We've seen some audiophile passion on your thread - re: SS and Tubes. You will see the same amount of passion if you go threads that discuss Autoformers. http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1262655794&read&keyw&zzmac=autoformers I have no comment on it. If you're considering the krell 350's, once you have the local service guy identified; you can have him check out the amps before you buy. He will check the values, see if there is any bulging or leakage going on, or any leakage /burnt marks on the actual circuit board. Have this guy in your pocket to bring it to when its time. Piece of mind. Myself I would not buy without having a local guy known and personally talked to about my situation - just so I am comfortable going in. There is a pair of those amps on audiogon right now. Its VERY important to have dedicated 20 amp lines with higher power Krells for their health. You will know when its time to recap. You will start hearing pops. Also the dynamics and famous Krell bass and smooth highs will start getting worse. So it will sound start sounding like it is clipping. Hope this helps and let us know how it turns out. Don't forget the BAF. Cheers |
I look forward to your impressions Wemfan. Remember to factor in the service cost down the road (whenever it is needed), as part of the purchase price when considering the Krells. Selfishly, I would like for Vegasears to drive over to your studio with his VTL 450's. Then we could hear three-way comparison impressions. But a google of Vegas to Dallas shows an 18 hour drive ! Cheers Chris |