The room is about 29'x29'x11'. I am not sure what I will put in front of them since I am under the impression they need a lot of power. My best pieces are a Mac c2300 and MC275. However, I have those running a pair of Klipschorns. I also have some Cornwalls. I am guessing the B&W is going to sound quite a bit different than the horn cabinets. A local repair shop has them is why I am interested. I heard them under far less than ideal conditions. I am on the fence about them and need some opinions of what to expect if I drag em home. In my area there is really no place to hear good audio equipment. If I acquire them I would then look for a suitable amp. |
Wow! You have some serious gear! Great looking room. Your 801s look better than the ones I am looking at which are an Oak finish I would guess. They kind of look like Early American furniture, really dated.
The room is a nice size because it is a studio connected to the house by a walkway but otherwise separate. (I am a musician so I have to have a studio to play in.) I live on 10 acres with my nearest neighbor being about 300 yards from me so I get quite loud, a lot. I have had a full PA system set up in there but it really wasn't clean enough so now my main system is the Mac stuff through the Khorns. I listen to a lot of acoustic Americana type stuff along with classic rock and blues. I try to keep one system loud enough so I can play a guitar through an amp and play along with the music. I do this a lot because that is how i figure out music to play it. I do also listen for extended periods at reasonable volumes, too.
I sit at least 15' from the speakers. I like to have two stereo set ups in the studio, one loud and the other doesn't matter as long as it sounds good. I like my main system but I feel the Khorns probably need to be rebuilt and there are probably better choices in speakers for me, although I don't currently know what they are. I have some Cornwalls I may try and rebuild if that is a better option than the 801s. I have always concentrated on my music gear so now, for a time, I want to get my stereo gear up to par and it is a field I am not that versed in nor do I have much opportunity to hear good equipment.
I have been planning to go SS in second system. I don't want it to be like the first. I will have the guy that is selling the speakers check them out for me if I decide I may want them. He is selling them on consignment and isn't too impressed with them but I know him well so he will help me all he can.
The speakers don't have the BAF.
Nothing excessive in your post. You would be surprised at what I learned reading it. Actually, I reread it several times. I am trying to learn and make some good decisions and it is hard when you don't know what you're doing. I appreciate all of the good information. Keep it coming> |
I went to hear the speakers again today. They don't have stands or the bass alignment filter. My friend, who owns the shop, played a sample drum cd through them and it sounded like a drummer was playing in the room. I didn't have time to take them with me or have a a really good listen. What I heard I did like.
Linnlp12: Tell me why the new crossovers are so much better? Do the old ones drift or cross at different places? Why would I need new crossovers?
I have several amps but none large enough to properly power the speakers....another consideration. My friend at the stereo shop suggests at least 350 watts per side. |
After reading all of the posts I am leaning toward seeing if I can borrow them for a test drive depending on what shape the speakers are in (thanks CT0517). I do have a Parasound A31 3 channel amp that is 250 watts @8ohm. I just got it and haven't heard it yet. Should that amp be a good match for the B&Ws? I bought the Parasound for a theater bedroom system i am working on. I don't need this system to be loud. I guess I am looking for a smoother sound compared to the Khorn system. Something clear and musical. Really, I don't know how to describe it but something in a different direction from the MAC/Khorn system.
Also, you guys mentioned getting them up high. How high? The floor is hardwood. Elee you mentioned you upgraded the crossover. How do you go about that and what are the symptoms that a crossover needs upgrading? can I still acquire a Bass Alignment Filter or are they hard to come by?
All of the opinions are very helpful. Thanks... |
I have been busy but plan to get down to hear the speakers late in the week and see what I think with fresh eyes and ears. I have read and reread every post which has me more interested in the speakers and I am a sucker for a massively built cabinet. How about the price? Does $2k seem about right for these speakers?
Phasecorrect: I am not trying to stick with a price point. I am considering these speakers because they are local and of course in the realm of quality I am interested in. I wouldn't seek out and ship another pair if this deal doesn't happen. I would pay more for another set of appropriate speakers if I am getting value for my money.
There is a good chance I will bring them home and see what they sound like in my studio. I will first see if they are in good shape internally. I will post back here after i go and experience the speakers again. |
Elee,
The northcreek crossovers are $2100 a pair. That was a surprise. There is a lesser way to go but it is still $799. That is a pretty sizable investment in a pair of $2000 speakers. How much did the crossovers improve your speakers? I am thinking of making an offer on them early next week. |
Thanks guys. I have them home but I haven't had a chance to hook them up yet. I do plan on listening to them this weekend though. I will report back as soon as I listen to them. |
CT0517,
I will be able to place the speakers where they sound best from my listening couch. They will go in the studio where I have lots of room. I don't know how to tell you how loud but I listen to music fairly loud at times, mostly classic rock type to acoustic type stuff. I plan to drop by the store tomorrow and based on my conversation with the owner I will probably make an offer. If I acquire the speakers then I will need some help selecting an amplifier. It is a consignment so no telling how it will go.
Elee,
thanks for the crossover and amp info. Very helpful.
The drawbacks are...
1. 87db so I am going to need a more powerful amp than I have.
2. No bass alignment filter
3. no stands
4. crossovers need updating
5. These amps show their age. Not terrible but not good looking, either.
The pluses..
1. I was impressed with their sound in the store. They sounded very good on music and the drum track was really impressive.
2. They are big heavy cabinets and they are local so I can load them in the truck and have them home quickly without shipping and all of the problems that go with shipping heavy cabinets.
3. I think I will be really happy with them and in my area big old heavy good sounding speakers don't appear too often.
4. It seems like a lot of good sound quality for the buck.
I should know one way or the other, this week. |
GOOD NEWS TO REPORT!!!!
I called down to the store a little while ago and made the deal. I will pick the speakers up tomorrow but it may be the weekend before I have the time to get them hooked up and play with them. Anyway, they are mine. Now, to just get these huge boxes home!!! |
Well, the short answer is that I am very impressed with the 801s. When I first hooked them up in place of the Khorns for the few minutes I thought these speakers are going back. They were so different from the Klips it took me a while to get used to them. At first they seemed slow, almost lethargic compared to the Klips but after listening back and forth to the speakers I started warming up to them. The Khorns have this live, open airy, dynamic sound that I love and am used to hearing. They are also a good match for my MC275 tube MAC which really is not the best choice for the B&Ws. However, going back and forth between the speakers really showed me their differences.
The Khorns--- Very live sounding, open, airy with a tendency toward harshness at times. They make some studio recordings sound almost live. There is an excitement and clarity. You almost tense up sometimes because it feels live and you expect a passage to possibly get louder. They also sound exceptionally good at low volume and on acoustic music. Negatives are the tinge of harshness or rattiness of the very upper end which makes this speaker a bit fatiguing to listen to for longer periods. In my experience, this speaker still rates at the top of my list.
The B&Ws--- They seem like a true studio monitor as has been mentioned. They don't color the sound like the Klips do. They are smooth and not fatiguing to listen to. That is a great plus. Great low end and a B3 organ sounds incredible through them. Drums are really lifelike. Like ZEN, I thought the very upper end seemed not quite as good as the rest of the tonal spectrum. Voices sound really good. The MC275 just doesn't have enough horsepower for these speakers. With the right amp and preamp my guess is that these speakers are really going to get where I want to go.
I recently acquired a Parasound Halo A31 (250 watts per channel) for a system in a bedroom and hadn't heard it yet. The difference between this amp and the MAC with the B&Ws was really huge. Of course, the Parasound added a bunch of really good tight bass slam as you would expect but the little MAC was no slouch in the bass department either. What really surprised me was playing Patti Griffin in a very laid back acoustic track was how much more definition and clarity the MAC had over the Parasound through the B&Ws. The Parasound was also a little muddy. It is a $3k amp and really not up to what I would want to run through these speakers. I was surprised comparing these amps through the 801s. You could go out and have a cup of coffee and come back and you would have no trouble telling which amp was playing. They sounded that different from each other. The Parasound did sound good enough through my KEF LS50s which is what I bought it for.
ZEN, what is a MBL? I will take your advice and acquire some stands but why does getting these speakers in the air help so much?. Also, I gave $1500 for them. How'd I do?
CT0517, I set them up as you said but I didn't run the lows with the Parasound and the higher end with the Mac yet. I forgot about trying it until I reread your post tonight. What is bi-wire? I suspect it is the same as bi-amp? I am familiar with biamping. Remember , I am a musician not an audiophile. :-)
I am ready for some amp/preamp suggestions. What am I going to have to spend to do these speakers justice? I think I would probably prefer a used amp so I can get more bang for the buck. Would the $5000 range for each piece get me where I need to go? There are a pair of Krell 350mcx mono blocks down where i bought these speakers. They would be the only higher end amps I would have access to in my area.
Frogman, i have never heard a CJ but I have wanted to. They are on my short list.
I need to reread the posts on upgrading the crossovers. That is something i would think would make an appreciable difference on these old speakers. i want to get the most out of them i can.
So, what do you guys think? |
I think I am comfortable up to about $5k each for the preamp and amp so a total of $10000. I would like to spend less but i could spend a bit more if I needed to. I spent just under $10000 for my c2300 and MC275 and I am happy with them. I am okay with used as well as new.
I had some Luxman monos at one point and they were good amps. I will check this one out also. Thanks... |
I just came in from the studio listening to the speakers and I really like them. They are very different from the Klipschorns which is what I want. Smooth with a strong low end and good clear mids. After trying both the Parasound and the MAC I can hear that I need a really good SS amp with an appropriate amount of power.
I will hold off on the crossovers as you guys suggest. I am used to guitar amps and they need frequent cap changes if they are to sound right so it made sense to me that a speaker this old would probably need some new caps. I will order some stands soon. How tall would you go? I have been on Ebay checking out the BAF but there were none for sale last I checked. They seem to go from $250-$350. I will get one when I have the opportunity.
Ct0157, The Krells have not been serviced. I just mentioned them because they are here locally and I know nothing about them. I don't plan on using the MC275 or the C2300 with the 801s. I want to go with something different. I listen to vinyl and cds and I very much doubt that I will ever progress beyond that. The cabinets are in good shape...an imperfection here or there but really in clean original condition. Don't apologize for the long post. Your posts are always full of good information and very much appreciated. I read and read them as I do the whole thread.
ELEE, thanks clarifying your advice on the crossovers. I was about to pull the trigger.... now I will wait.
Frogman, I really like things that sound good. I doubt I listen to music the exact same way you guys do since I am a musician and not an audiophile but how music sounds is extremely important to me. I have chased the perfect guitar/amp for my whole career. I routinely tweak on my gear and acquire more (sound familiar?) I have a pretty good vintage guitar/amp collection all acquired in the pursuit of trying to get the best tone. I really like things that sound good. As a musician I am an analog guy. I am a tube amp guy. My newest guitar is a 1966. I have always worked on my music gear and was never knowledgable enough about audio gear to have as good of a system as I always wanted. In the last year or so I have been trying to correct that. I am currently trying to learn and acquire. I want my studio to roll my socks up and down every time I turn something on in there.
Oh, and the MC 275 is not even in the ballpark.
So far, the Forte and the VTL 300 have been suggested. Now that you guys know a little bit more about me and what I am looking for I really need some more suggestions about which amp I need. Remember, I have no idea how to pick one so don't assume I know anything because I really don't. You guys would be surprised how much I learn from your posts.
Keep the advise coming. I really need and appreciate it. |
Thanks, Dave. I will check those amps out.
Frogman, The MAC did sound much better to me. The Parasound is just not as quality of an amp as the MAC. It has nothing to do with SS VS tubes.
I like tube amps but I also like SS in audio. I am just thinking along ss state lines partially because of power ( more headroom, etc.) but maybe I am wrong? When I said I was a tube guy it was in reference to guitar amps which is a whole different world than stereo gear.
Now to address your "unsolicited advise"... nothing I said could possibly offend anybody but obviously you are the exception. I am the nicest guy you ever met but I never indulge those that are looking for the slightest of reasons to be offended. |
There really isn't much choice locally. There is one audio repair shop and that is really it. I would have to go to Dallas or Kansas City to hear any higher end audio equipment and I doubt under those circumstances I could really tell much about what i would be hearing. For me, I need to A/B equipment before I can tell much about it. Even if something sounded good there I would have no idea how it would stack up against my equipment at home. My plans are to take the suggestions here, check out the amps best I can, then make a decision. |
Dave 72,
I found a Pass x350 for sale about a hundred miles from me. However, it is not a .8 as you suggested. What do you think? |
Tis49,
That was a good review on the x250.5. That guy was certainly high on it. I will read some more about this amp and seriously consider it. Reading that review sure made me want one and I would be willing to pay $8000 for such a great amp.
CT0517,
So, two votes for the X250.5? Think there would still be some new ones out there? Thanks for calling Kent and sharing what he had to say. So, if it turns out to be a Pass the X250.5 will be it. I don't buy audio amps often so I want to acquire something that i am going to really enjoy for many years to come so, of course, let's up the budget. How about the $10000-$12000 range. From what I can tell in the audio world that really isn't all that expensive and i would like to be under that but I am willing to go that high to get something I am really going to enjoy.
I would also like to consider tube amps. I really like my MC275 through my Klipchs but they were not a good match for the B&Ws. How about something like the MC601s? I like the idea of having mono amps. The stereo amps can get quite heavy. Should I consider Conrad Johnson or Audio Research? Bryston has been suggested and what I have read about them has all been good.
I don't think I will even try the local Krells. No telling how old they are so they may be close to needing service and $4k for them or few thousand more for newer technology and more time until service would be needed sounds like a better way to go to me.
What would you now suggest with the new budget? |
I notice these are "reference" amps. What exactly is a reference amp? I see that popping up from time to time. The amps look good and that would certainly be a good price. I will add them to my list. Thanks.... |
My problem is that i just don't have enough experience in listening to good quality stereo amps. I am going to have to make my decision on which amp to acquire based upon recommendations and whatever I learn about how to compare specs. One reservation I did have acquiring the 801s was their low sensitivity.
Frogman, I have heard many great things about Manley amps. They are in the back of my mind. I am currently compiling a list of amps that appeal to me and Manley is on it. Any other suggestions? I do like tubes. My c2300, MC275 and Khorns is a really great sound to me. I can't say just how good it compares to other audiophile equipment but I love to listen to it. It is really an exciting system for me. However, trading out the Klips for the 801s showed me that they are a different animal. A low powered tube amp is not the place to look for these speakers so I am considering a much larger power SS amp. Maybe I should be considering tube? I don't know. Anyway, don't be shy. Tell me what you think. I do plan on acquiring an amp for the 801s very soon.
Dave72, That Parasound has come up in several threads. It appears to be something special. In the last day or two i have been learning all i can about Pass labs. Soon I am going to take a good look at the Parasound. Thanks.
Ct0517, Your posts are always most welcome. Please post some thoughts. Don't hold back tell me what you think I should do. |
Funny story. That amp is a beast. I am sure it sounds great. I was rereading this thread and saw where you had listed one that was on Audiogon when this thread started but has since expired. I had forgotten about it. |
No worries, Tim.
I finally brought the Krell 350mcx mono amps home for a demo. I have been A/B ing back and forth with the MC 275 all evening and I really like the Krells. Of course there are things I like about each amp better than the other but I really like these Krell monos for the inefficient B&Ws. They are a good match. |
CT0517, I never do anything the same way twice. I also listen to a large variety of music which is constantly changing. I listen while I work in the studio moving around to different areas of the room. I listen loud, I listen not so loud. There is no average with me. I go through periods where I listen a lot and periods where I don't. I never warm up my equipment. I walk in,flip a switch, listen for who knows how long, shut everything off then leave. There is no usual with me. I usually have 3 different stereos set up at the same time.
Frogman, I said this particular Parasound is not as good as the MAC. This Parasound is around $2000 new in stereo ( mine is the three channel) while the MC275 is close to $5000 new. I don't think that is comparing apples to apples. In general I lean towards tubes but with these low sensitive speakers I am also considering SS. I may start a thread on the amp forum and see what the guys who frequent there suggest. I need a good match for the B&Ws and I am not sure what that is. Hopefully it will become clear eventually.
Dave, I like what I have read about the Pass amps and i like the way they look. They are darned expensive, though. If I go SS I will be looking at the Pass amps. I will call the guy Ct0517 suggested and talk to him first. |
Very good post, Ct0517. You have me again thinking about those local Krell 350mcx monos. I can bring them home for a test drive and I will look up the Krell 600 as soon as I finish this post. What tube pre do you suggest for the Krell amps?
I will acquire the BAF filter as soon as I can locate one. Thanks for stressing the importance of it.
I will keep it fun and I am enjoying learning something about audio. I have acquired several new pieces lately and I am enjoying it all. Adding the two Mac pieces increased the quality of my system dramatically. I am taking some good steps forward and enjoying every minute of it. I really do appreciate everyones input. It is a bit hard for someone as ignorant about audio equipment as i am but I am getting better. It is starting to sort out for me. I am getting familiar with some of the gear out there. Now, to look up that Krell 600... |
No problems on the current pre amp but that goes with the MC275 and Klipsch system. The 801s will be its own complete system. I read about the K 600 and it appears to be a killer amp. I read that it weighs 182 lbs.!!! Damn, I may not be man enough to own one. Maybe the wife can move it around for me...
Frogman, My Parasound is the A31 which is a 3 channel amp. The same amp but in stereo is the A21 and it is a $2000 amplifier. |
First off Chris I apologize for calling you Tim. Sorry....
Thanks, Dave.
I can keep the amps really as long as I would like. I took them back today but my friend says for me to keep them a while.
My review..
These monos really are incredible. They sound really, really good. I am very surprised by how good they are. I have spent the last several days listening and comparing and I am just really impressed. Blown away by how good they sound. Of course, the low end nears perfection but these amps sound good all the way up as well. The Parasound just isn't even in the ballpark but we are talking a $2k amp compared to a $12k amp. The Parasound is currently on bedroom theater duty and does fine for that. I was surprised comparing the MC275 with the 350mcx. On the B&Ws the MC275 just doesn't have enough horsepower so dynamics and slam are diminished. It still has a small edge in the vocal range but overall the Krell is just a better amp to use with the B&Ws. However, on the Khorns it was the other way around the tube Mac came out on top. So, i guess there is a lot to this "synergy" talk I have been running into. Of the best two combinations 275&Mac VS. Krell&B&Ws the later came out on top for me. I like both setups but I think the 801s with that higher power SS amp is my current favorite.
However, I am reticent to acquire the Krell because of its age. It is 9 years old and from what I understand it needs a cap job. I checked into it and it will run about $2000 without shipping. I know everything sounds good now but eventually service will be required. My friend is asking $4000 but he says he will come down in light of the needed service. How much should I pay if I decide to go that way? Another amp I am thinking about is a Mac mc452. How do you think the two amps compare sonically? The Mac I can get a great deal on, would be brand new and has great resale value. If I invest in the Krell it would be for the long haul with no thought of resale. I want to make the best sonic decision.
Guys I need some input here. I ned to make a decision fairly soon.
Chris, this is one of those times I need a long post.
Thanks for all of the input, guys. |
Another good post, thanks. I ordered a Mcintosh MC452 today so we will see how the two amps stack up against each other. I will post my impressions of the comparison. I am very curious as I have no idea what to expect. I do want the Krells they are just so too darn good to let them go but after I have heard the Mac I will know better what kind of deal to make. I did read someplace where a guy moved up to the 450mcx from the 350s and he said it was a big improvement. Your 600 must really be something.
I would guess that I will have to go to Dallas for a good tech which isn't too bad since I go there a lot, anyway. Of course, I won't do anything until there is a problem which may be way on down the road as you say. I feel as you do about shipping heavy amps.
Meanwhile the Krells are resting comfortably in my studio. I plan to spend some time with them this weekend and i will see how they sound all around the room as you suggested. One thing I know, they are killer amps! |
