Azimuth 2020

@cleeds,

"VTA and azimuth are two completely independent angles."  Only with a tangential tonearm, not with a pivoted, offset, one.  The effect may be minor, depending on the degree of offset, but it's there.

melm

"VTA and azimuth are two completely independent angles." Only with a tangential tonearm, not with a pivoted, offset, one. The effect may be minor, depending on the degree of offset, but it's there.

Your claim can only be accurate if the pickup arm (or turntable) itself is not "true."  That is, the arm cannot be raised or lowered while also remaining absolutely perpendicular to the turntable platter.

Or perhaps, like mijostyn, you don't understand what these angles define.

"Cross talk is affected by azimuth. Phase is affected by tracking error."
And phase between the two channels is also affected by azimuth.  All the adjustments on a TT are interrelated to some degree.  And these changes can be measured and heard.

I think what can happen, if azimuth is set at any angle different from 90 degrees, is that as you raise or lower the VTA. the contact points of the stylus, depending upon stylus shape, might alter their contact with the groove and certainly the distribution of forces on the groove walls would shift a bit.  But this effect, like very small changes in VTA, is tiny.  If azimuth is set at a perfect 90 degree angle to the groove, none of this would happen.  You'd have only the effect of VTA per se on groove contact.

Cleeds you are smoking too much pot and like usual you have no idea what you are talking about and are only confusing others who are trying to understand this. You should be ashamed of yourself. When you have no idea what you are talking about we would all be better served if you would just shut up.  edwyun in no way is phase affected by azimuth. Fortunately, phase shift between the two channels is frequency sensitive. Only high frequencies suffer significant phase shift with tracking error. Bass frequencies are not significantly affected. 
Melm, absolutely correct. 

mijostyn"Cleeds you are smoking too much pot and like usual you have no idea what you are talking about and are only confusing others who are trying to understand this. You should be ashamed of yourself. When you have no idea what you are talking about we would all be better served if you would just shut up.

Cleeds is like an oozing infected boil he is wrong almost all of the time and does not even own a Music Reproduction System I believe he should be banished from this group for infecting us with error, misinformation, propaganda and deception. Mijostyn I think you may be correct that cleeds is hopelessly stoned, intoxicated or drugged beyond his ability to think, reason, and  articulate with any value, meaning, or substance at all he is a hopeless, wasted, useless member of this group.

@cleeds,
"Your claim can only be accurate if the pickup arm (or turntable) itself is not "true." That is, the arm cannot be raised or lowered while also remaining absolutely perpendicular to the turntable platter.
Or perhaps, like mijostyn, you don't understand what these angles define."

Often wrong, but never in doubt.

In the first place, the arm perpendicular to the platter?

Let me make it easy for you.  Make believe that instead of the usual offset, the cartridge had a 90 degree offset from the arm.  Of course this would never be, but play along for a moment.  Surely then if you raised the arm the azimuth would change.  Right?

Now consider changing the offset angle a bit towards a reasonable one.  Then the arm being raised would change the azimuth, but a bit less and would continue to do so less and less until the cartridge was lined up with the arm, no offset.  Can you see it now?

Cleeds you are such a baby. You have all my posts deleted because you can't take being dead wrong. melm, don't bother. He is totally incapable of understand. I already tried an analogy a 3 year old could understand.
Cleeds is a contrary. (Little Big Man) 
Everyone better read this before cleeds has it deleted. Never in doubt and always wrong.

mijostyn"Cleeds you are such a baby. You have all my posts deleted because you can't take being dead wrong. melm, don't bother. He is totally incapable of understand. I already tried an analogy a 3 year old could understand.Cleeds is a contrary. (Little Big Man) Everyone better read this before cleeds has it deleted. Never in doubt and always wrong.

I applaud, congratulate, and honor mijostyn for his insightful, accurate, penetrating observation, analysis, and characterization of "cleeds" and for mijostyn's bravery, fortitude, and honor in bringing forth this truth. Cleeds is like an infected boil or perhaps a hemmoroid who stains this group with his observations, pronouncements, and proclamations that he issues with the air of resounding authority, expertise, and expertise yet he owns no Music Reproduction System at all! He conspires with the moderators of this forum to censor, limit, and restrict the expressions of ideas, opinions, and observations that conflict with his own from which he operates in a world of complete and utter fear, cowardice, and shame. I have argued before that he is not worthy of this group or it's other members, contributors, and commentators, yet he continues his mission of ignorance and misinformation. I happen to know this guys REAL NAME and would be happy to share with anyone who pm's me I have his address and phone too we could show up at his house and teach him a thing or too but I will not be back in the US for a few months so that will have to wait. let's go mijostyn let's stick it to this guy!

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Insults and invective are bad enough, but when the vitriol rises to the level of doxing and physical threats, I exit the conversation. I care a whole lot more about my family than I do this forum.

There are obviously some angry and frustrated people here. I actually feel sorry for them.

Why do that cleeds.....just train for a month, and get the meeting place.

Personally I cannot make light of either arguement. But I gotta side with cleeds for civility.
I just started this thread to fish for ideas, not sociopathology.

Civility? are you kidding me? Stupidity is more like it. Cleeds has no idea what he is talking about. He obviously flunked out of geometry in high school. I assume his talents lie elsewhere. At least I hope they lie elsewhere. As for sociopathology. Are we living on the same planet? You do not have to look very far to see some real sociopathology. Just open your door. And, the silent majority is just as bad. They should be chanting at the top of their lungs "all lives matter" not hiding in a corner. 
This is another post that is going to be deleted so you better read it fast. OK cleeds you can have it deleted it was really for your eyes only. Do yourself a favor and download a book on geometry and see if you can find an imagination while you are at it.

Bit hard to follow the conversation to know if any conclusions were reached:

Magnified, the grooves in a turntable may look straight, but they are still curved with the record which causes the cross-talk from one channel to be higher than the other with perfect azimuth. Stylus shape will impact this hence likely why high end cartridges will exhibit this more. Tuning azimuth based on averaging cross-talk will not be ideal. I do optically with a first surface mirror with a graticule, and if I am ambitious, I pull out the test record and do a high frequency sweep to make sure channels are matched.

With an offset tone-arm, usually the azimuth will change as the cartridge is raised and lowered, but the change will be very small over the likely height differences that would ever be encountered while playing, or what you put under the stylus while setting azimuth optically.  Note, I said "usually". For most tone-arms, the pivot angle is perpendicular to the main arm. For some tone-arms, the pivot angle is closer to perpendicular with the offset portion. For some, it is somewhere in the middle. If the pivot angle is perpendicular to the offset portion of the arm, the azimuth will not change as the cartridge is raised and lowered. VTA of course will always change as the cartridge moves up and down.

Robert, You wrote, "I pull out the test record and do a high frequency sweep to make sure channels are matched."
Matched for what?  Balance or crosstalk?

Matched for output level on a high frequency test sweep. If the azimuth is off, you will get left to right output level variations as the frequency changes at high frequencies.

Yes, but changing azimuth will also alter crosstalk, and azimuth has far less of an effect on channel balance vs crosstalk.  So a little change in balance makes a big change in crosstalk relationships. 

Azimuth has a significant impact on channel balance when you start looking at frequencies out past 10K, and especially past 20Khz, which you can get on the Ortofon test records (and Denon if you can find them).

If you balance the crosstalk, so it is the same on both channels, then your azimuth is likely off. The forces are slightly different for the left and right channels, even with perfect alignment and that contributes to slightly different crosstalk. If you balance the frequency response, then you are getting consistent groove tracking on both channels.

Nice coherent explanation of your viewpoint.
Thanks.

Actually, because I have a Triplanar tonearm (with easy azimuth adjustment) and that Signet Cartridge Analyzer (which has a built-in db meter) I mentioned up above, I once experimented to find out how much could Azimuth alone alter channel balance, assuming that 90 degrees of azimuth gave perfect channel balance.  The result was a bit less than +/-2db, where the azimuth angle was radically off at either extreme, like a range of 60 degrees to 120 degrees, which one would never choose to live with.  I don't argue with anything you say in your post of 3:05 PM; my point is that azimuth is best used to manage crosstalk, not channel balance.  If I were faced with channel imbalance, there are other ways to correct it.  And while there is always a choice to shoot for equal crosstalk vs "best" crosstalk, my aim would be to try to achieve best numbers, R to L and L to R, regardless of the fact that the two values would not be equal.  But there are two sides to that question, and I recognize that others may disagree (like the guy who designed the Fozgometer).

And by the way, these days I rarely even try to adjust azimuth electrically. I have come to favor just getting the stylus to sit properly in the groove, which is usually very close to if not exactly at 90 degrees azimuth.  I leave it to the manufacturer to build the cartridge properly.

This isn’t true unfortunately,

my point is that azimuth is best used to manage crosstalk, not channel balance. If I were faced with channel imbalance, there are other ways to correct it.

I could spend hours typing, and never communicate well this topic, but fortunately, someone already went to all the trouble, and even has nice pictures: http://korfaudio.com/blog36

I can attest to what they surmise that the Ortofon test record does work (3rd blog post). I find the high frequency sweep is more sensitive, hence more accurate, but it is an easier test for me than it may be for others. A single tone THD may be easier for most.

roberttdid

Bit hard to follow the conversation to know if any conclusions were reached ...

That was the deliberate result of the two users who turned this conversation into ugly nonsense. They've since been given a temporary "time out" from the group.

If the pivot angle is perpendicular to the offset portion of the arm, the azimuth will not change as the cartridge is raised and lowered.

Exactly!

For most tone-arms, the pivot angle is perpendicular to the main arm.

You make a fair point and for those arms, azimuth will change slightly as the arm is raised or lowered. I don't know whether that represents "most" pickup arms or not, but it's arguably a design deficiency.

Ii don't think the korfaudio article says very much.  For example: "Consequently, any tonearm that does not have azimuth adjustment is severely deficient".  I would say that if it doesn't have an EASY adjustment it is defective.

In my experience that would include VPI pivoted arms.  It can be done with those arms but it is a major pain in the neck.  Adding the dual pivot makes the adjustment very easy, and IMO makes that accessory a necessity.  

Also I find the article incredibly naive in its expectation that a cartridge can be so correctly assembled (in the real world) as to not require an adjustment.  Not to mention the possibility of the slightest non-parallelism between the arm board and the platter.

I differ with the person who claimed he arrived at the same azimuth settings whether using the Fozgometer or the Feickert software. I have used both, and rarely has that been the case when you take the time. The Foz is easier to use since no computer is used but doesn't yield the same results and the same quality.

Quality for SQ? Or for vinyl conservation?
That IS the question.

Robert, You took my meaning wrongly, when I wrote that the best use of azimuth adjustment is to manage crosstalk, not channel balance.  In fact, I found the logic of the Korf article, when I first read it about a year ago, to be compelling.  He doesn't say to use azimuth adjustment to correct for channel imbalance but not crosstalk, as your response to me might suggest; he does say one is best off by seating the stylus in the groove symmetrically and not to fuss with azimuth, which is a philosophy I now follow.  I only wanted to add that azimuth adjustments have a much greater effect on crosstalk than on channel balance, if one wants to fuss with azimuth.

@lewm 

good answer
If we wanna fu(ss) wid azimuth for better SQ, have at it.
Or send the cartridge back and  listen to some mighty fine streams instead.Or maybe ISKC Blues Cafe.

What, is the big deal?🤔 You put za needle in za groove upright. Not sideways, upright. No problem boss.

Question  of method is NOT a big deal.
Justa innocent query boss.

The most accurate method I understand for cross talk is using a digital volt meter and measuring the output of a 1KHz tone. This method is difficult as you really need a filter so you are only measuring in the 1KHz range, this way the measurement is not bouncing all over the place.

This is why I use the Fozgometer, since it has that filter built in, the analog meter is very still easy to read. Measuring for cross talk is to play a 1KHz tone in R channel and measure the L channel, then reverse. You can use the Foz to do this, just disconnect the R cable and the meter will drop to a very low level since it is measuring the info in the L channel. Note the needle position, then adjust based on other reading.

When I do this, the meter results are similar to exact. 1) L and R readings are within half a hash mark. 2) Channel balance the needle is dead on ZERO with the mono 1KHz tone.
The real results are the soundstage is wall to wall, bass is deep and articulate and very importantly surface noise is greatly reduced and with new records almost gone. 

catcher10, the problem with the cross-talk method is it is really only accurate if the cartridge is manufactured properly, and even then works best with simpler stylus designs.

I'm getting into analog (in a serious approach not just playing vinyl on any turntable) and this discussion turned out to be very informative. Reading through it what lewm states makes a lot of common sense and I'm planning on following that approach.

I missed something with cleeds, did he was threatened through a PM?

luisma31

I missed something with cleeds, did he was threatened through a PM?

No, I was threatened right here on this thread. The posts were deleted and the two users given a "time out." Pathetic.

Easy to miss. Only the OP gets notified for all posts. I do appreciate all of the non rude viewpoints.  Except for the smartass sarcastic idiotic ones. 

After having reviewed the entire thread it would seem to me cleeds that you might own certain people and apology. I don't condone hot headed behavior and some people do have an unnecessarily short fuse. But, it does seem to me that you have a hard time admitting you are wrong. I think it would be sporting if you had those people re instituted. Threatened? what were they going to do. Cut your ears off? 
This thread has gotten way too complicated for the subject which is about as simple as it gets. A degree one way or another is not going to make any difference what so ever. All it takes is a good eye and a mirror and you are in business. If you do not have a good eye get someone who does.  $300.00 (fozzgometer) buys a lot of records or a nice dinner out with the wife so you can get away with buying more records. A dozen roses also helps. Us ladies love flowers🥰 

Fozzgometer does not work properly for azimuth especially if the cartridge has internal alignment issues. 1 degree out will make a bigger difference than any high priced cables.

Well that is easy, if it is not able to be setup right and you find the cart body skewed drastically then.....send the cartridge back and get a new one or better built cartridge.

You think roberttdid, just how accurate do you think you are. I have an excellent eye but I'd bet my resolution is not better than 1 degree, maybe worse.

I think by eye you can do better than 1 degree if you have any magnification. Used one of those Intel USB microscopes before and it looked perfectly aligned, so perhaps 1/10 degree or less?  Does it have to be that perfect?  I doubt it. It takes me little time to test, and it needs to be done so rarely.

looscannon

... it would seem to me cleeds that you might own certain people and apology. I don’t condone hot headed behavior ...

I’m not sure I understand you. Are you suggesting that I apologize to the two users who the moderators independently decided were in repeated violation of the group’s rules and - despite warnings from the moderators - not only continued their violations, but escalated them to the point of threatening my family and me? I’ve been around this forum long enough to know that being temporarily banned from the group is the only way some people understand that the rules apply equally to them as they do everyone else.

... it does seem to me that you have a hard time admitting you are wrong.

When I stated that azimuth is a completely different angle than VTA and that adjusting one doesn’t alter the other, I should have added "in a properly designed, manufactured and installed pickup arm." I’ll be more careful with that next time. Thank you!

I think it would be sporting if you had those people re instituted.

You’re apparently new to this forum so I’ll explain this for you: It’s not for me (or you) to "re-institute" the two violators. Only the moderators can do that. If you feel they were treated unfairly, you might want to contact the moderators and plead your case. Perhaps they’ll share with you the actual content of some of the deleted posts. That way you’ll know what you’re talking about.

Of course - given that @looscannon just joined this forum in the past week - it’s possible that he is actually a sockpuppet for one of the two banned users. No matter. I’m giving him the benefit of the doubt, as a courtesy.

@cleeds 

"When I stated that azimuth is a completely different angle than VTA and that adjusting one doesn’t alter the other, I should have added "in a properly designed, manufactured and installed pickup arm." I’ll be more careful with that next time. Thank you!"  

No, you are still incorrect if you are talking about a pivoted arm with an offset.

melm

... you are still incorrect if you are talking about a pivoted arm with an offset.

If the pickup arm’s pivot angle is perpendicular to the offset, changing VTA will not alter azimuth. (Disclaimer: that applies only if the arm is properly constructed and installed. If its manufacture or install deviates from "true," then all bets are off.) Why don’t you try it and see for yourself? It’s silly to argue about something that can actually be measured.

You might want to try and find a Wallytractor azimuth tool. You would likely find it quite revealing!! Malewicz understood these things.

This is all pretty basic geometry, folks.

First of all cleeds I am not a him, I am a her. 

It seems there might be a problem with definitions here. 
With any offset arm changing the VTA will ever so slightly change the azimuth. Within a reasonable setting for VTA the change is trivial but it is proper to set VTA before setting the azimuth.  cleeds, you said something about a tonearm being "true." What did you mean by that.

While I am at it I have not properly introduced myself. I am a retired psychologist. My father was an old time TV repair man. He also was an autherized Zenith dealer and repair center. For special customers he would make house calls. I frequently went with him with his big black case full of tubes and parts, the things that frequently broke. It was not long before people had him repairing their Music systems also. A lot of it was Zenith back then, big cabinets full of speakers with the changers mounted under a lid at the top. So I guess this is how I caught the bug.

I was an only child and I think my father really wanted a boy. I willingly took the role, a bit too seriously. By the time I was 13 I had already broken 4 bones, my left clavicle, both wrists and my sternum. Dad called me his loose canon. 

By age 10 with dad's help I was building Eico and Heathkit radios and record players. My first record was Meet the Beatles. Dad liked Jazz. 
It is a continuum from there. I do not have a favorite format. I listen to everything. I love glowing tubes and big hot class A amps. Anything that plays a record is fine by me. We have to keep them pressing records.
Buying FLAC files on line is the new thing and I am contemplating exactly how I'm going to set it up but that is a topic for another thread. 

Greetings and Salutations All,
Looscannon

@cleeds 

"If the pickup arm’s pivot angle is perpendicular to the offset"

What is a pivot angle and how can an angle be perpendicular to anything?  I fear you are in over your head.  Just as well that this matter be dropped.

looscannon

It seems there might be a problem with definitions here.
With any offset arm changing the VTA ...

Good point, and it is quite likely that you are correct. I suspected earlier in the thread that some here did not understand some of these definitions (such as VTA, SRA and azimuth) and so of course that's an obstacle to understanding.

I can't help those who don't understand the geometry of pivoted pickup arms. I can only suggest to them that - as a starting point - they listen to someone such as Wally Malewicz (RIP) explain. There is an introductory video here.

Azimuth can be measured, by the way, so it's silly for this dispute to continue.

MiJostyn.....not in all cases If the pivot of the arm is at a different angle than is the headshell..... Cleeds is right. Bad arm design....every warp of the record would change the azimuth (as well as the VTA, and vtf)

There is no RIGHT or WRONG setting or answer, only the best scenario for your situation and setup. You need to decide do you want the most accurate channel balance or the most accurate crosstalk measurement? 

Then sit back and enjoy.