For the record the 1704k version dac is considered by many the best dac Ever made. Esoteric, Accupsaze, Lector,less loss, and several others use these dacs and in the Ayon cd-5'and their Skylla dac which is slightly better
Use 4 ,2 per channel,thedacdoes not need to share one of the Takamura
Transformers with a transport therefor it has slightly better separation,
Soundstage , and dynamics in absolute terms .let me add either Herbies best tube dampers or the Eat model help to lock in the imaging,also
The 4 Chinese rectifiers are ok for the first 500 hours to run the unit in
But Mullard ,Mazda,RCA on any 1960s 6x 4- ez 90 tubes will easilly
Improve the performance in dynamics and to lock in the performance,
Also replace th 20mmfuse on backwiththe new Hifi tuning Supreme fuse
You will hear how it sounds more clean sounding after a 2-3 day runin. |
Robster, see if you can make the trip to either CES or RMAF in the States as you'll see everything there, though it's not always possible to hear equipment in the most ideal circumstances given the environment at shows. |
Melbguy1:
Yep. the truth is usually in the middle.
An aside. I really wish I could hear, in my system or any system for that matter, some of the really high end Ayon (and other companies stuff too.) I live in the boonies and there is one high end dealership 4 hours away (though it is not a great place at all) and the next closest one is 9 hours away. With all my purchases, I have had to order, pay for and have delivered equipment I never heard before --- a limitation to be sure. It is tough to audition in your own home before purchase... or even hear, in any context, much equipment when you live in a remote place.
So... those of you privileged enough to have access... do not take it for granted! |
Hi Robsker, sorry I did miss your point. One thing to keep in mind with full spread magazing write ups is, the Company being profiled has to pay a lot of money for that (around $10k for a full page ad) the last time I checked & that comes with an understanding they will get a favourable write up, so some of the newer reviewers tend to get carried away.
I tend to think the question of value is relative; Ayon produce a range of products with certain virtues which will appeal to some and not others; from their sonic signature to tube vs ss to even looks and features. Bottom line is; Ayon's top end gear is very very good. As far as this hype goes however, I'll leave you with an old saying Rob "The truth is usually somewhere in the middle". |
Melbguyl:
No I have not heard the higher end stuff --- which is why I stated in the above post that "Of course the performance/value relative to equal cost alternatives might get better as cost goes up for Ayon... who knows. Maybe some of you do..."
Clearly you do... and that adds quite a bit to the discussion. Seemingly, at least based upon your testimony, the performance/value relative to equal priced stuff does go up with increasing cost for Ayon --- at least by one measure (is the accusphase over priced?). And again, I stated, i think clearly, that Ayon at the Spirit II and CD-1s level are very, very good performers for the money.
To assert that any brand is the Bugatti of audio (even asserting that Bugatti is the Bugatti of cars) is a stretch. There are doubtless an array of really great pieces of audio equipment that constitute the highest echelon of performance/cost at a given price level. I'd say the entry Ayon stuff is very,very good at the price point --- much closer to the top than the bottom (or even the middle) and as you say... maybe as price point goes up maybe ayon gets better relative to the competition..
What at least we can agree upon is that those who assert that Ayon is a pretender --- just good advertising but modest (at best) performers --- well such assessments seem off base. |
Robsker, have you heard any of Ayon's top components in a good system to be able to comment with authority? When 6 moons rate the CD-5 close to the Accuphase DP-700 (which is more than twice the price), that strikes me as off the scales cost/performance). Add to that exemplary build quality, components & topology, the ability tube roll & a very good pre-amp thrown in...If that is not off the scales value, i'd hate to see what is! |
Mlb: Agreed they had in view the top Ayon gear. My comments about the lower end of the Ayon gear was intended to be extrapolated out. That is, at the entry-level the Ayon gear has very good to very, very good performance/value --- but not off the scales performance/value. If that applies across the board for the Ayon gear, then it is reasonable to assert that the Bugatti thing is hyperbole. Of course the performance/value relative to equal cost alternatives might get better as cost goes up for Ayon... who knows. Maybe some of you do...
My point is that, generally, in this thread we have two camps... the Ayon is awesome and the Ayon is a rip-off/sham product. I'm arguing that Ayon appears to be neither --- rather it is solid gear at fair prices like a vast array of other gear... quite a bit closer I'd think to the top of the performance/value end of the continuum than it is to the rip-off/sham end. But not at the top. The Bugatti thing is to sell magazines and prime the system more than anything else. |
Guys,
I am sure what TAS meant by Ayon, the Bugatti of Audio - well it was not a CD-1s and a Spirit II. More akin to the top line Orthos, Vulcan II, Polaris III products that Ayon has. You know the $50k amps. That is what TAS is taking about, not the entry level ayon gear, that by the way is better than most other comparable gear out there at the entry level price point. Spending $2400 for a CD player or an amp is entry level high end. |
Hi Robster, you've got a nice system there. I never found a cd player at the price point you mentioned which I found either "the Bugatti" of audio or even a high end bargain..I always wanted a better player.
As far as high end bargains go, design and build quality & amazing sound, i've been blown away by the CD-5/5s. The fact you're getting a full Skylla tube dac, high end transport & tube pre-amp done very well for under $12k is amazing. Ayon's lower end players (in fact i'd say up to the CD-2s) though good, don't create any magic for me. The CD-5 certainly did.
I agree, the Ayon players stock can sound a bit bright at times because they are uncompromising & don't use chokes, filters or feedback which detract from the sound, however th |
I own an Ayon CD-1s in a system with an Ayon Spirit II integrated and a pair of PBN Montana EPS2 speakers. I purchased the CD-1s new for $2400. The CD-1s is a fine piece of equipment. I compared it to the $1650 Cambridge CD player , a Bryston player at $2,300, a Naim player at, I think $3,000 and to several DACs (using my old CD player as a transport. In direct comparison, in my system... the CD 1s was the clear winner.
Attributes? Good imaging --- wide and large. Good presence, full-bodied, rich sounding. Engaging? yes.
Weaknesses? can be bright on some recordings and is especially problematic with certain piano and clarinet recordings. That said, the boldness of the player lends well to more recordings that otherwise would be non-engaging --- more than making up for having problems with some strident piano and/or clarinet recordings.
Overall impression of the Ayon gear? I'd say that the gear is definitely not the Bugatti of Audio and probably not gear that is among the very best value/performance ratio out there... but is as well by no means a dog either. I'd say the Ayon gear is a fair to pretty good value/performance product across the board. |
Your experience sounds unusual Nikola, as Ayon products are known for their reliablity. If you were talking about old Audio Research, Levinson or EAR gear, i'd say fair enough. I can only assume that player had been stuffed around with, or a dodgy repair had been done? |
Melbguy1, I tried to post evidence regarding Jimphd14, but the moderator did not approve my post. I guess the acrimony is not "productive".
I do believe that this forum is supposed to provide honest insights about audio equipment choices and am angered that someone like Jimphd14 acts in an unethical and disrepectful way to spread disinformation. I guess I have learned not to trust everything I read on this forum, as some people don't use it in good faith. |
found always big problem for reliability, no found any good service after selling! |
03-29-11: Mcondon
Mlb, Melbguy1, I am not a dealer and have no financial interests in any of Ayon's competitors. My forays into audio amount to a rounding error for me financially. If you read my post history, you will see that I have commented about a wide range of products and have done so deliberately and as honestly as I can. I neither implied nor accused you of being a Dealer. As I said before, I think that people should be able to use the Audiogon forums to gain useful insights about products they are considering buying. Can users rely on the opinions expressed in Ayon threads? I don't think so I don't think you believe that statement. I think you're trying to rubbish all Ayon commentary because of one bad egg...sad. No company wants an immature fraud to speak in its behalf. That is a stretch. If you're going to accuse Jim of being an Ayon stooge, then provide proof rather than speculation. And Jimphd14's disinformation is also a disservice to manufacturers like AMR, Meridian, PS Audio, Berkeley, BAT, and Audio Research, all of which he has implausibly claimed are trounced by Ayon. You're taking this a bit personally don't you think? I don't think AMR, Meridian, PS Audio, Berkeley, BAT, or Audio Research would give a *hoot* about one member's opinion. |
Mlb, Melbguy1, I am not a dealer and have no financial interests in any of Ayon's competitors. My forays into audio amount to a rounding error for me financially. If you read my post history, you will see that I have commented about a wide range of products and have done so deliberately and as honestly as I can.
As I said before, I think that people should be able to use the Audiogon forums to gain useful insights about products they are considering buying. Can users rely on the opinions expressed in Ayon threads? I don't think so. Even if the majority of Ayon owners are completely honest in their enthusiasm, Jimphd14 is neither honest nor honorable and has muddied the water as a result. He resorts to implausible disinformation about competing products and personal insults towards anyone expressing a preference for any product that is not made by Ayon.
If Ayon components really compete with the best on the market, then Jimphd14, not me, is acting against Ayon's and your best interests. No company wants an immature fraud to speak in its behalf.
And Jimphd14's disinformation is also a disservice to manufacturers like AMR, Meridian, PS Audio, Berkeley, BAT, and Audio Research, all of which he has implausibly claimed are trounced by Ayon. |
Mcondon, reading your previous replies to Ayon CD-2 threads, I can see you are a one-eyed Perfect Wave fan (which is fine) and your replies are usually even handed, however I don't think you should judge ALL Ayon players by one player (ie: the previous model CD-2) since the CD-5/CD-5s are much better sounding players with reference level sound as has been repeated often before. Re: your assertion there are no dealers in the US, that is not correct. USA Tube Audio is the main US Dealer who are also supported by the US distributor as posted on Ayon's website.
What you have to understand is, Ayon are still a young company, therefore of course their dealer network is going to be smaller than say Audio Research for example, so it has nothing to do with with Ayon not wanting to go head to head with other brands as you suggested. The fact is it takes a long time for a new brand to gain wide market acceptance and to be commercially viable for a hifi store to carry. Hope that sheds some light. |
When I bought my Ayon gear, I went to Acoustic Image in LA. I called Ayon and they emailed me a list with 42 dealers. Ayon owners love their equipment and this Ayon bashing is really weird. Who are you guys, ayons competition? |
One thing that bothers me about Ayon -- besides the sound -- is the fact that it spends a fortune on advertising and on chassis work that makes the company the supposed "Bugatti of Audio", but it has no dealers in the US. Why is this? I suspect Ayon doesn't want to go head to head with other brands in dealer showrooms. While it might work for Ayon, it is not for the benefit of audiophiles who have to buy the unit from on-line retailers or used "sound unheard". Personally, if I could have listened to the Ayon CD-2 at a dealer like Stereo Exchange in New York, I would have known to stay away from Ayon to begin with. |
Interesting how threads can always slip topics, though not always to ill effect.
I can understand how WIG's experience with the use of the Berkely vs. Ayon 2 could persuade him not to go with the 5S. If he felt like the CD 2 had a tendency to be bright and forward, it could be easily thought that this is a house sound, and though the CD 5S is assuredly much better given the price difference, the Berkely DAC seemed to counteract that for him. It is probably less financial investment, with a pleasing result, which is something we are always looking for here. That said, I would love to hear a 5s in my system.... |
Audio companies source their parts from all over the world. You would have to be quite naive to think that Mcintosh, AR, Ayon, VAC, Lamm all get their parts from the country that they have their manufacturing facility in. Ayon is no different, they source their parts globally and build the units in Austria. Ayon bashing is not going to work, they are a leader in this hobby, they make great gear and they are not going anywhere. On the contrary, they are overtaking the heavy hitters in audio. |
Initially Ayon mislead people(imo)into believing the units were made in Austria when in fact they were only assembled in Austria. Exactly to what degree are they assembled? I don't know and neither do you.Ayon knows but they aren't saying.What percentage is it? It has been my experience when a company does this they are trying to hide something.This is the reason why there are those who believe much of the unit is manufactured in China and finally assembly takes place in Austria.Again, is this true? I don't know but I strongly suspect this is the case. |
Budt, who said the player is 100% MADE in Austria??? If you re-read my last post, I said the player is fully hand-ASSEMBLED in Austria from parts sourced from Europe, Japan and elsewhere. The issue I have with your previous post is, you are falsely inferring the player is made from mostly, or all Chinese parts which GREATLY devalues the brand and the reputation of Ayon players in most audiophiles opinions. So as an Ayon owner, I don't appreciate your misleading statements. |
Budt - Pinhead for sure. Another expert in audio! |
It is definitely 100% NOT made in Austria. It is only partially assembled there. This has been discussed and was already extablish. Ayon even contributed to the thread and admitted it was ASSEMBLED in Austria, NOT made in Austria.
Ask Ayon yourself.
I only brought it up because of Jim's continual sarcastic and insulting posts. |
Budt, look buddy I agree with you questioning the genuiness of Jim's comments and his attitude, but I draw the line at misinformed assumptions about "Made in Austria". Really that has been done to death. Fyi, the Ayon's cases are made in China and Ayon source less critical rectifier tubes from China. My understanding is those are the only Chinese sourced parts.
Of course Ayon (like other Manufacturers source parts from Europe, Japan and elsewhere), though it should be noted Ayon source only the highest grade parts..many exclusively made for Ayon (eg: Kitamura Kiden power supplies), however the player is fully hand assembled in Austria as shown by the country name shown on the rear of the case. If you wish, I can forward you an email from Ayon owner Gerhard Hirt confirming the players are hand-assembled in Austria...pm me your email address if you wish.
If you are still insistant the players are "MADE IN CHINA" as you claim, then really, you're looking like a fool. All anyone has to do is read the Dagogo or 6 moons review and they can easily identify the Ayon's parts come mainly from Europe and Japan and as I stated are then hand-assembled in Ayon's factory in Austria. Believe what you want to believe, intelligent audiophiles are capable of making their own minds up. |
JIm
Obviously you have a vested interest in Ayon.You have been calling people "pinheads", nuts(anyone who has even the slightest criticism of an Ayon product) etc and claiming to have owned gear XYZ, claiming to have authored books on the subject " the mental health status of Canadians". That was also in another thread which was pointing out Ayon is NOT made in Austria but ONLY ASSEMBLED in Austria, leading many to believe AYON is MADE IN CHINA( at least mostly).Only final assemble takes place in Austria,like setting the already fully manufactured circuit boards into the case.Funny how that entire thread was deleted.
The stuff does seem priced a little high for being MADE IN CHINA( final assembly in Austria).
Bottom line is this.
Jim you have been unmasked and no one believes your stories anymore because that is all they are.Now run back to Ayon because you obviously don't have any objectivity or credibility at this point.
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Yep, I love my Ayon gear. I would read the Absolute Sound March 2011 issue about Ayon. That says it all. |
Jimphd14, why insult everyone who doesn't worship Ayon? I doubt you have heard the Berkeley DAC, which is a very expensive and well-regarded digital component. I also doubt you owned the AMR-77, the Meridian 808.3, the Perfect Wave stack, or BAT amps, as you have claimed in your 10 other Audiogon posts, which were all devoted solely to touting Ayon digital components and amps or insulting Audiogon members who don't agree with your Ayon endorsements uber alles.
I can only surmise that you have some undisclosed financial interest in Ayon. If so, disinformation and insults are a lousy way to protect your interests. |
Jim
In his subjective opinion he likes the Berkley better than his Ayon cd2.How does that make him a "pinhead"?
What is the title of the book you co-authored, a book regarding the " mental health status of Canadians" as you previously claimed( in a now deleted thread).
I am dying to know the exact title that I may read it. |
Jimphd14,
Wig prefers the Berkeley DAC to the Ayon CD2 in his system after comparing both, why is that so hard to except? You would prefer otherwise, that`s your call to make. You seem to be personally offended. |
Just amazing that anyone would think that a Berkeley Alpha DAC is better than a CD-5s ! There must be something else going on in their system. Same folks that touted the incredible sound of the eastern electric minimax and then said, no not really after all the minimax had a shrunk soundstage - now I found another better option, the berkely. pinheads..... |
Hi Wig, that's interesting. I'm not surprised you found such a wide difference with the Berkeley dac. Re: the CD-5s, there is a wide performance gap between the CD-2 & 5s. The CD-5s is built around a full Skylla 2 dac and features higher grade caps, an extra power supply with full "bridge" tube rectification and is a higher end proposition overall. Besides, there are ways to improve the player significantly without dropping another $5k on a dac ;) Consider that the CD-5/5s uses 4 x NOS OPA627AP op amps. These were the best op amps 20 years ago, but are only midrange op amps today...and the signal is passing through those things. Also, better output tubes can be sourced. I'll leave the rest to your imagination. |
My Ayon CD2 is a good player but can sound bright and forward on occasion and this is with tube and biopolar equipment. I tried the EE Dac with silver star fuses, power cords and Vintage Mullards but it shrunk the soundstage and I thought the CD2 was better in my system.
The Berkeley blows the CD2 out of the water, you would think the Berkeley was a tube unit if you had to listen blindly. Better soundstage, imaging and cues easily heard.
I thought about the CD5s but decided to go with a better sound, a Berkeley Alpha Dac. |
Jim, don't forget Wig only has the CD-2 (not CD-2s or 5s), and the Berkeley Alpha dac is a very good value high end dac. Robert Harley who is not known for his bs really liked the dac, and it supports formats the Ayon does not (eg: HDCD). Wig, if you like the sound (and i'm not surprised you do); keep enjoying your Berkeley. |
Wig
Would you be kind enough to share with us how the two compared? I am sure the Ayon is a fine player on it's own.How did the addition of the berkley improve on it? |
Taking an Ayon CDP and using an alternate DAC, well that is just nuts. Akin to buying a pair Dali speakers and then start changing out tweeters to make it better. Many folks have over many years trained their ears to simply, bad soundstage so they can not appreciate the unique sound of the Ayon CDP's. It is only after time that they realize what they have been missing.
|
My Ayon CD2 is being used as a transport now, using the Berkeley Alpha Dac and love it. |
Agreed Budt! I'm looking forward to borrowing a very good ear I know to help review my CD-5s in the near future & will post a review on AG. I'm a passionate audiophile & don't have time for shills either. Going back to the OP's question, I don't think it's appropriate to describe the CD-2 as a reference player, however I know from talking to Gerhard Hirt the latest model CD-2s included a lot of design improvements, and was brought closer to the CD-5/5s. The main thing is Wig is happy with his purchase...great stuff! |
Melbguy1
Please don't get me wrong. I don't care if someone gives very high for a product ,even continually, if they are truly a real audiophile which has listened to or purchased the product.Everyone I am sure( including me) enjoys reading posts from real audiophiles who have purchased equipment with their own hard earned cash.
What we don't need are people posting comments (pretending to be real consumers of highend audio gear who have a vested interest).In other words,shills. |
Budt, I hear what you're saying, and as I mentioned; i've been guilty myself of beating the barrel a bit too loudly that brand (Ayon). I recently bought the latest model CD-5s, but am holding off posting a review until it's played in & i've got something considered to say. I read the comments you were referring to, and they were bizarre, but don't let one bad egg turn you off Ayon gear. |
Budt, you hint at a very useful recommendation, which is to look over the previous post history of Audiogon members who strongly praise one product over another. Such a check would confirm that the member is behaving like an honest broker, not a shill.
If it turns out that a member (like Jimphd14) has an Audiogon feedback score of zero, no items for sale, and uses the Audiogon forums solely to "pump" a single manufacturer (Ayon) while denigrating competitors' products, it is probably completely safe to ignore his posts.
Such posting behavior is juvenile and a disservice to the Audiogon community. |
Mcondon
Well, I had noticed these same type of posts previously with companies like Simaudio in which member audio4ever( C.K) was really the member pretending to be your everyday audiophile.I owned Simaudio at the time and liked the stuff but I simply will not support a company which conducts itself in such manner. The irony of all this is I was really considering Ayon until I read posts like those from Jimphd14. When anyone comments in thread after thread of how great something is I always check out their history( like member audio4ever).
When I took Jimphd14 to task regarding his posts he became overly defensive and angry, hurling insults, claiming to have co-authored a book on the mental health status of Canadians and insinuating I suffered from paranoia , anger and I forget what else. It was quite ironic and rather amusing( considering his claim).
I also think he would be quite embarrassed if he knew my profession.
|
Macdude,
No hard feelings please but may I correct your statement a bit:
"It's just that one looks like a Raysonic, and the other looks some like car amplifier", LOL. |
Mcondan, without wishing to get into personal opinions, I agree with your comments referring the Ayon players overstated superiority are clearly not realistic. In Doug Schroeder's review, he rated the Perfect Wave stack as superior to the CD-2.
Re: the AMR, it is clearly a very good player, though it has a different presentation to the CD-5. The arguement over which is better has been done to death, so I wont go there. In the past i've been guilty of getting caught up in this Ayon hysteria to an extent. Now I simply believe the players I know (CD-5/CD-5s) are excellent players worthy of kudos.
I've only been into high end audio for 3 years, but experience has shown me only very experienced audiophiles, or reviewers should effusely comment on "which is better", otherwise it's best to just comment on general observations or ask specific questions. Just my two cents. |
Budt, I think you were on to something in your March 15th post in this thread. I did not like the Ayon CD-2 and posted about it. Jimphd14, dripping with sarcasm, says I should just go and buy a Sony CD player at Best Buy. In another thread, in which I claimed the PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC & Transport sounded better than the Ayon CD-2, both of which I owned at the time, he claimed he also had owned the Perfect Wave DAC & Transport and that the Ayon CD-2 blows the PS Audio gear out of the water.
Now I just looked at his previous posts on Audiogon. He has a total of 8 posts to his name and in every one he recommends Ayon equipment. He claims to have owned BAT and Audio Research amps, the AMR-77, the Meridian 808.3, and in every case -- wait for it -- the Ayon CD-2, CD-5, Triton, Spirit, etc. was superior.
Regarding the AMR-77 vs. Ayon CD-5, the CD-5 is "a remarkable improvement over the AMR-77 -- NO CONTEST".
Regarding the Perfect Wave DAC&Transport, "The Ayon CD-2 is a superior unit to the PS Audio -- FOR SURE."
Strangely, he claims to have been an audiophile for 25 years, yet he has never written anything outside these 8 posts about his experiences using BAT, Audio Research, AMR, Meridian, or PS Audio equipment.
If you own BAT, Audio Research, Meridian, or AMR, be prepared for Jimphd14 to denigrate it by claiming its inferiority to Ayon. |
"..yes if you want to spend an extra $2-3k for a pretty case. I wouldn't.."
I haven't heard the Skylla, but I have owned the Chord. I think it's safe to say both are state of the art. It's just that one looks like a Raysonic, and the other is the best looking DAC out there.
I think we can agree sound is foremost. But once you get to these prices, I repeat, you're buying the *whole package* - sound, build quality, support, and appearance (for some).
If this DAC sounds better than anything out there, I'll be the first to report back. |
The website was up for renewal for one year service in August of 2010. It is still displaying, but I have long since abandon audio and long sold off all the inventory havng taken another bigger, and considerably brighter position within the real estate sector. Bottom line is continue to enjoy your audio, it's a great hobby and business at times. At present, I don't even own an audio system for personal use. No time !
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Melbguy1 - I second that! We write what we really see and hear in an honest manner, as audio enthusiats, I too love the Ayon gear. Not with an agenda as Image Audio with over 5 known aliases. What is that all about. He claims he is out of business, but that is not what his website states. This is no place for imposters. |
03-18-11: Budt
If you read my post you will realize it wasn't directed at you. My apology Budt, I'll get off my goat now! That's water under a bridge, let's get back to audio talk :) |
03-18-11: Macdude
It looks like a Raysonic. When you spend that much on a player or dac, you're buying the whole package. Just look at the Chord QBD76. It's beautiful.
I've been eyeing the Skylla, and I'd really like to try it out. But couldn't have they put more effort into the entire package when it's selling for $7k (for the Skylla)? ...yes if you want to spend an extra $2-3k for a pretty case. I wouldn't.. |
