Actually many of us do understand burn in just like you do Bo. It deals with the grain size and boundaries along with a few other details.
As for the interconnects, don't expect as big a difference in sound as the cords and speaker cables. Garth is breaking new ground and has measurements to prove this as most know.
Power is a different beast entirely. In the end, it comes down to each person's home as well as their system set up. There is signal crap as well as crap from the mains.
Bo says "This is why at this moment I do use and sell these products. They all showed a loss in a 3-dimensional stage. This is unacceptable when you judge at a 'High-end' level. It showed too much emphasis like many cable brands also reveal."
Not sure what you are saying. You say you use and sell 'these products' (which ones?), but you say they all show a loss in a 3-dimensional stage. Why would you use and sell anything that hurts the stage? I'm sure it's a language mistake. Please clarify.
The CAD device actually increased subtly the sound stage. Bob and I didn't even make comments during the first few songs, but afterwards it was obvious that we both heard the same thing. It did nothing negative.
Anyone can make up marketing hyperbole about how to listen and what to listen for, but everyone hears differently. That's the reality. Most folks hear what they are told to hear by a dealer who wants to sell gear. Many of us listen to a lot of live music and some of us have played instruments in bands and know what live music sounds like on stage.
Any audio system is a compromise. Nothing can sound like live music. We agree on many things and that includes what Garth is doing. I remember sitting with Richard Vandersteen, Johnny Rutan and Garth listening to Richards model 7's with his amp and the top AR pre. The analog was AMG. Garth had his prototype 7000 and three of his power cords. They were all in clear jackets as they were prototype's. Even without letting the cords warm up, you heard a huge difference. When he left the top cord (Dragon) in all day, it was spellbinding. We all know what the Dragon does now, but at the time there was nothing like it on the market (and still isn't to my ears).
Garth is a genius who may go down as one of the biggest innovators in audio. There are plenty of different flavored speakers, amps, servers, DAC's.....We all have favorites for whatever reason. I've yet to hear anyone not chose the new AQ cables and cords when doing A/B comparisons. That to me says it all.
Back to grounding devices. I have heard many, but hated them all. You can ask Bob how skeptical I was doing into the demo at Johnny's. Most devices just put the noise back into the system and it's why some designers float the ground. The Teleos (active) and CAD (passive) convert the crap on the line into heat. Lowering the noise floor is positive in every way as long as it doesn't change the sound. It just takes away the noise and nothing else. |
Hi all,
I‘m reading the AQ Hurricane/Firebird AC & loudspeaker cables reviews with great interest and I‘m considering buying some.
My question is: Need AQ AC cables also be bought in 2m lengths (or more) since they are better sounding than the 1m length version? I‘ve heard that argument for AC cables a couple of times and e.g. Isotek or Shunyata offer only lengths starting from 1,75/2m respectively. My dealer said it wouldn’t matter with AQ power cords (maybe due to active shielding by DBS?).
If e.g. 2m are better it came to my mind of a 2m Hurricane would be equal/better to a 1m Firebird.
Since these cables are rather expensive, it‘s good to clarify prior to purchasing.
Any thoughts are much appreciated.
Regards from Germany! :) |
@musicguy85,
Interesting post, and nice to hear from German Audiophiles( I have a secret obsession with MBL's).
You make an interesting observation. I just purchased a set of AQ cables and was surprised that they were only offered in 1 meter or more lengths. So, it would seem the DBS requires a certain length in order to be effective. -Though I might be wrong in that assumption.
Re: Hurricane vs. Firebird-
AQ is pretty good at organizing/pricing their cables. If it is higher up on the scale/price level, then it should 'outperform' the cables below them.
If I get a chance, I will call AQ and get the scoop on the length question.
Bob |
No issues in length with the AQ cables. I own both 1 and 2 meter lengths and already tried the 1 and 2 on my Niagara 1000 and there was zero difference in sound.
AQ will tell you the same thing about length. I guess size doesn't matter to them. lol.
Bob is right. As you go up in price, the sound is better. Lower noise floor due to materials or size of the Teflon tubes. I own William Tell copper in 8'. It's the bi wire one and what a difference it makes. I was told by AQ that the silver version of the Robin Hood would have sounded even better than the regular Tell's. |
Hi,
thank you for the responses! :) The audio contact here in Netherlands also said the Firebird should be superior to a Hurricance due to better conductors and that lengths need to be tried and that there good be slightly different sounds but not that one length per se is better.
=> So I‘ll probably go for three 2m hurricanes (easier to handle) for my DAC, my integrated and to the wall. This way I could leave the option open to have a Firebird to the wall in the future and use the third hurricane for the second mono power amp once I upgrade.
Which brings me to the second question/topic: Speaker cables. :)
First I thought I‘d go for 2x1,5m Hurricanes (single wire). Then I read here that bi-wire is definitely superior with the Mystical creatures, so I thought it through, did the math and said to myself that I could some how afford them.
However, that brings me somewhat closer to a pair single wire Firebirds or even bi-wire (Firebird zero and Thundebird bass). However I could only afford and willing to spend the money for 2x1m length, which means I‘d buy them only once I got a pair of mono power amps due to the shorter distance.
To make a long story short, these are the thoughts in my mind:
- is a bi-wire Thunderbird that much better then a single-wire?
- bi-wire Thunderbird vs single wire Firebird zero?
- is it wise to mix two cables in a Firebird zero / Thundebird bass combo?
Anyone here that has heard any of these combinations?! :)
Kind regards!!
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@ctsooner ,
When I ordered a set of William Tell's from Johnny, it seems they didn't come any shorter than 1 meter. My office system has my baby monoblocks right near the speakers and 1/2 meter would have been a lot neater (visually), and less expensive.
So, I guess there is a minimum distance the DBS is effective? Or, AQ doesn't want to sell anything under a meter.
B |
they may not want to sell under that. DBS is to deplete the charge from building up on the cable or something like that. I doubt length has anything to do with DBS (or visa versa).
I haven't heard those specific combo's, but the bi wire is going to work best if your speaker is made to be bi wired. I will say that you need to audition the wire to see what's best for you. |
I heard that Robin Hood and William Tell should be absolutely outstanding in price/performance ratio. And when going for a Zero&Bass combo/bi-wiring version it should be a major upgrade in addition. Has anyone auditioned, compared them? |
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Oh thank you very much - very interesting! Thee seems though to be quite little review stuff and talk about the Zero speaker cables out there yet. Which is quite strange as they provide such a great value and performance. |
From what I've read so far, it seems the AudioQuest Zero speaker cables are at least very good alone, but "major" jump in performance when adding the matching BASS cable.
Some folks gripe that the
AudioQuest Zero speaker cables are a rip off because you have to buy another set of BASS cables in addition to sound great, but I look at AudioQuest Zero+BASS as a single product that easily out-competes with cables that are much more expensive including some of AudioQuest's other offerings. |
There is a William Tell ZERO speaker cable for sale right now at USAM |
The bi-wire combo (Zero & Bass) shall be amazing. I just wonder how much of a deference there is to Rocket 88 or Castle Rock. |
oh... huge difference. Apples and oranges
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Great! But what about the difference between bi-wire combo of Robin Hood vs William Tell. Really big difference in price but cannot think about such a big performance difference. Any experiences ? |
I haven’t read all of the thread but i find it impossible to believe that bill lowe and team weren’t aware of what is called a “game changing” new design by Garth. high end audio cables have been around for over 40yrs so it’s hard to imagine that improvements on a massive scale can be had. every single cable manufacturer markets the latest design as a breakthrough with their new cables less expensive models exceeding the performance of higher priced cables from the “old” line. It’s not just AQ, which I think is very good at making cables and marketing. shunyata is exactly the same.
imo |
i’m also saying that it may not be too wise to dump old for new if in fact one was happy with the old. at these prices i’d be looking more at new speakers or components. now that can be a game changer, especially speakers. |
@4425 .
I would suggest you listen to these new cables. I, too, felt cables couldn't make a great difference, but an audition of the William Tell's definitely changed my mind.
B |
just saying if you have good(and i mean good) cables already and were contemplating a large purchase of very expensive cables i would want to be sure that my front end was spot on. i’ve had many expensive cables and find(for me) that the major differences lie along dark/bright lines with bass and smoothness thrown in. ymmv |
I am using a Devialet 440 Pro on a B&W 803 D3 with Roon (MQA, lossless formats). So a high resolving setup. And it’s really incredible to see what impact the different loud speaker cables can have on the sound.
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I had the Thunderbird Zero cables and before than Oak and Mont Blanc. The new cables are in a different league in terms of transparency and resolution. Of course this is all system dependent and personal preference whether you would like it.
One thing that I noticed was that the Thunderbird Zero cables have less copper than Oak but cost more. It also seems they keep raising prices every year. |
Sorry I missed all the posts. Someone asked about William Tell zero with bass vs Castle Rock. I owned Castle Rock and installed the WT zero/bass. It was a HUGE difference. It was as though I bought a new amp and preamp that were a few rungs up the ladder. It's transformative in my system. Even during burn in, I could tell what it was. They kept getting better all the way up to nearly 1000 hours. I played them for 24/7 to get to the best they could sound as quickly as possibly. I was gone for a week and let them run. My buddy was looking after the dogs, so if there were problems, he's have shut it down.
You can't even compare the older line of speaker cables to what Garth has put out here. He's working on the interconnects, but they won't have nearly the difference as the cords and speaker cables have. I run all Hurricane with WT zero/bass and a balanced WEL interconnect from DAC to integrated. I was told not to sell the WEL for the new interconnects just yet. I'll have to see how the WEL stands up vs the new ones.
AQ is a great company. I can't wait to see what Bill has in store for Golden Ear speakers. |
Robin Hood should be really close to William Tell - eager to get them. |
mark, to my ears it wasn't close at all. I think with AQ the steps are larger between products than with other cable companies I audition. The Robin Hood are CRAZY CRAZY good and to me, the best value in their high end speaker cables. I just felt in my system, the Tell's were well worth the upgrade from the Hoods, but if I had the Hoods, I wouldn't even think about an upgrade. I forget the price difference, but it's not small if I recall. Garth just gets it. |
I have Thunderbird Zero cables on order. Really looking forward to hear what difference there will be.
I'm coming from Audioquest Aspen which are the same gauge. I might try using the Aspen for the bass bi wire until I can get the Zero bass. |
I wish AQ would make an easier to understand nomenclature.
Zero?- What does it refer to?
At least the power cables are differentiated by High Power and Source, but I don't understand why they just don't say Upper Frequency and Low Frequency for their speaker cables.
I guess it is a Marketing decision.
B
And, nice to see you back ctsooner. Did you get my email earlier this month?
bob |
Yes I believe to make a wording connection with the technologies incorporated in the power cables already. But seems there are hardly any reviews of speaker cables of folk heroes or mystical creatures in magazines so far, which is sad. |
Bob, the new AQ speaker cables have two components a treble/mid cable and a bass cable. The treble/mid cable is called Zero and the other is called Bass. You can use the Zero cable as a stand alone cable or combine it with Bass cable for bi-wiring.
For power the High Power is a thicker cable for high current components like amps and the Source cable is a smaller gauge meant for source component like DACs etc. |
Eager to get my setup upgrade consisting of Furutech Rhodium wall socket, Thunder High Current cables for Niagara 5000 and both mono amps (Devialet 440 Pro with Coax Coffee digital cable) and Robin Hood Zero/Bass bi-wiring cable. This all together should get it to another level :)) |
I'm sure it will get to another level. Guys, before you start to mix cables, you may want to call your dealer or AQ directly. I had been told not to do that as they aren't designed to be used with the other models. |
Ive been using the Thunderbird speaker wire now for a couple of weeks. Big improvement over my old Aspen. Anyone that has Aspen or Oak and are thinking about upgrading it is worth it. |
I'm running AQ Aspen with Martin Logan 13ESLs. I have some Silver in my Interconnects. I'm torn on Thunderbird vs Robin HoodSilver (about same price), or W. Tell Silver which is 1000 more. Any recommendations? |
@meuch,
I would buy what you can comfortably afford.
IMHO, AQ cables will not dissapoint.
If you want a good person to discuss the differences, I suggest PM'ing Audioconnection, or call John Rutan at Audioconnection.
Yes, he is a dealer, but he knows his stuff, and can give you the most accurate, free advice out there as he knows not just the brands he sells but just about anything out there.
Bob |
@meuch I would go with either Thunderbirds or William Tell Silvers. The Robin Hoods are pretty low gauge in comparison.
I have personally tried Thunderbird Zero cables with ML 11As and was overall impressed with transparency and resolution. I had WEL ICs and they worked well together. The Thunderbirds are very different the prior model Oaks. They will sound closer to older gen silver than copper.
That being said, I have spoken to dealers who absolutely love the William Tell Silver. I think they had them paired with Vandersteen speakers as I recall.
Either direction you go they will both be very transparent and true to source. This is a good thing and also bad if you are looking to use cables to balance sound. As an example I had the Luxman 509x paired with the 11As and when I switched to the Thunderbirds I thought it lacked bass. I replaced the Luxman with a Vitus RI-101 and it was like adding 2 sub-woofers into the room. The difference wasn't as apparent with older model AQ cables.
I second @gdnrbob's recommendation, I have spoken to John @Audioconnection and he is very knowledgeable and straight forward. He actually talked me out of upgrading a while back.
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Thanks Bob, All,
I spoke with John, very knowledgeable! He recommends Robin Hood Silver or W. Tell Silver for Logan ESLs. Think I'll have to spend bit extra for the W Tell Silver. Also recommended some stone between speakers and wood floor.
Much appreciated. Matt |
Update - I tried William Tell Silver, They had very wide image, and were more open on top than my old Aspens, but overall really did not compliment my McIntosh c2600, Levinson 335 and Logan 13As to my or wife's ears. The lower mids were a bit thin (lacked male vocal fullness) and upper mids could be sharp if saxophone was hot in mix. I tried both Nordost Tyr2 and AQ Earth Interconnects to no avail. I tried pair of Wildwood spkr cables and seemed more musical, balanced and sorted throughout Midrange. Firebirds may have worked better, but can't afford them. Horses for courses I suppose. |
@OP,
Interesting. I have no experience with any of your equipment, so I can't comment. But, I would call Johnny again with your impressions. Given his knowledge of equipment, I am sure he would have some suggestions.
All I can say is when I listened to the William Tell's with the Vandy VLR's, Belles integrated, and Aurender N100, it was a serious upgrade from the lower grade AQ cables (GO-4?).
As far as 'Horses for courses', I think so much of this hobby is not only system dependent, but 'listener dependent', though if both you and your wife felt a similar discord, then there must be something not clicking.
Whether it is the cables or something upstream or a combination of both is the question.
Bob |
I use the copper bi wire WT's on my Quatro's and LOVE them. Transformative is a word that a few who know my system have used. Highly musical and never thin. Some equipment that is highly revealing can possibly sound 'thin' in the mids. I have had that with some 'silver' in my system or with gear that is considered 'fast' etc... What's thin to one may not be to others etc.. we all hear differently. Sorry it didn't workout, but I would call Johnny again. Let us know what you find out. |
I would imagine there should be a big difference between using just the Zero cable vs. adding the bass cable. You are essentially adding more copper and splitting bass from Treble/Mids.
While I liked the Thunderbird Zero cables, I always wondered how much better it would be with the Bass cable since they were designed to be used together. It's a bummer for people who cannot bi-wire their speakers. |
I compared WT Copper Zero vs Silver Zero biwired in my Vandersteen setup over the course of a few weeks. I kept returning to the Coppers because they seemed a little smoother and the Silvers I thought had a slight edge to them. However, I’m absolutely convinced that they were simply revealing an upstream problem, in the case harshness in my preamp. When I swapped in a better preamp, that harshness went away and I gained with superior resolution in the Silvers. So I believe your system quality should be commensurate for best results. |
Great post Earth. I totally agree with you. Which Vandy/amp/source are you using?
I have the new Vandersteen HP5's showing up tomorrow. I'll use an analog volume control being installed in my The Memory Player (server/DAC/volume control) to drive direct since I only use digital right now. The volume control will be one of the better ones. |
@ctsooner ,
Any way to incorporate an Ayre volume control? Now that would be a sweet combo.😋
@earthones,
Great post! And, spot on.
Bob
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Actually many of us do have a full understanding of break in Bo. It's not just you. Many of us also have great ears and can hear all the differences in time.
As for the grounding devices, I was speaking with Richard Vandersteen about this and he shared that if the electronics are designing their grounding properly, that the devices won't be needed as they won't add anything positive.
I now have his M5-HPA mono blocks (setting them up as I type this) and my server/DAC/analog volume control is also designed properly, so the CAD won't be in my future.
I'm using my WEL XLR interconnect with my William Tell Zero and WT Bass. Amps will be running directly into the wall on a dedicated 20amp circuit. I'm going to start off with Richard's power cords, but may upgrade to the Hurricane cords. I am using Hurricane on the Server/DAC. That goes into the Niagara/Hurricane power cord into another dedicated 15amp circuit. My router and cable box are powered by a dedicated LPS unit that goes into the Niagara. Router uses Wireworld ethernet cables (2) with a bespoke hospital grade filter before going into the server/DAC. That has an isolation unit built into it.
All of this still powers my Vandersteen Quatro CT's. Still need my buddy to come and put the 3" granite plinths under them. The plinth spreads out the vibrations and holds the speakers in place so they don't' move at all. It does make a positive difference in the sound. Richard walked me through this (I'll be adding washers to the rear to keep the rake in proper perspective as the tweeter will be 3" higher. Wow, I can't even believe where my system is at. Just blessed and I know it. Thanks all for letting me play. |
@ctsooner
If I were you I would try to borrow a CAD and see what it will do in your system. The CAD is eating ultrasonic noise which is not even supposed to be audible. Therefore it should not make any difference and its a safe bet most designers don't attempt to manage/suppress such noise. And yet, in my system and every system I've heard them added to, the sound improved. Sometimes by a lot.
I first heard these devices at Axpona in a demo by CAD where they had 5-6 ground controls on one system using their DAC and streamer. It was some of the most relaxing yet highly resolved digital sound I've ever heard.
And now I have cable envy reading this thread....
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@ctsooner I’m using the M5-HPA’s with 5A Carbons. The preamp is the mighty new ARC Ref 6SE. But at the time I was evaluating the WTs, I was borrowing Johnny’s Ref 6. I had been so satisfied with the PS Audio BHK Signature preamp. It’s checks off so many of the boxes - no added feedback, simple tube input stage, great value for the money. But whether it’s the mosfet output stage or the capacitors that are holding it back, it just sounds flat and saccharine compared to the ARC. It took the better cables to highlight the problem. The new ARC is sublime. I told RV how much I love it and he said he’s heard great things about it. The $64K question now is, is he going to roll out that rumored preamp he’s supposedly been working on? He set the bar incredibly high with the M5-HPAs.
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earthtone and Pete - how fun and congrats on the M5 amplifiers:-) i have ref6se envy for sure. have fun and enjoy the music |
Jim, thanks. We need to talk on phone and catch up soon!!! I can't afford a preamp right now, lol. I'm hoping and praying that the volume control they install in my server/DAC is of the highest quality. The designer built the Melos gear back in the day. It was OUTSTANDING sound wise, but broke down constantly. He's fixed all of that now and his designs are sublimed. We will see. I also need to get an electrician into my listening room to run conduits for the two dedicated circuits in the room that are on an adjoining wall. I moved the system 10 years ago and just never moved the circuits. I now have no choice as I don't have enough outlets on that wall to plug in the speakers, mono's AND the Niagara. Can't plug one mono into the Niagara and the other directly into the wall, lol... I'll have him put one circuit behind each speaker for the mono blocks and speakers and then a four pack behind the TV/server area for the Niagara and router/LPS unit that run that and the cable box, lol. I also just realized that I can't use my Hurricane cords on the Mono blocks due to them being 15amp and the amps being 20amp. DARN IT TO HECK!!! |
@ctsooner you can always send the Hurricanes back to AQ to get re-terminated for a small fee, it's a simple process. |
You could even do it yourself, i changed my 2m HC firebird from 15amp to 20amp in less than 10 minutes! No soldering at all, just screws )) |
If anyone is looking for a pair of 8ft William Tell BASS speaker cables, I have some like new in the box for sale.
They are on USAM.
Sold my WT ZERO cables last week, as I moved up to the Thunderbirds!
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