Hi,
Very interesting thread!
I recently auditioned the Rocket 88 vs the Robin Hood ZERO. Wow, the difference was huge! I didn’t expect that! The RH made the soundstage open up so much more, with so much clarity and transparency. The bass was so much tighter and better separation and layering compared to the R88.
I also auditioned the Water and Earth interconnects, and in my system I needed the warmth of the Water RCA to make it a more smoother, fuller and engaging sound. The Earth was so much tigher but in my system not a good match with the RH. It was better, with more focus and separation but made it to clean to my ears, like it took all the warmth / life out of my system.
I’m wondering if the William Tells will sound a bit fuller / warmer so the voices has more weight, authority and body compared to the RH? Or how can you describe the characteristics of the WT in comparison?
Thanks!
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ricred1
Happy New Year!
any new Cable/Cord(s) headed your way in 2022 ?
Happy Listening!
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Still have a 10 feet William Tell bi-wire combo (pair) for sale at a great price.
These cables are very very good.
Feel free to email me
amyr
(at)
bezeqint.net
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Congrats! You'll love them.
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Glad to hear you loved the William Tell bi wire cables. I just ordered some, but unfortunately need 15 feet. Can’t wait to get them.
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Hey all!
Just got my new Thunderbirds (Zero). Only had a few minutes with them but they sounded great. Was hard to do an efficient AB test against the William Tell bi-wires, which blew me out of the water when i first heard them (before that i had the Robin Hood bi-wire and i recall hearing a big difference there). By the time i disconnected and moved everything today, I'm not sure my brain remembered how good the WT sounded to measure up against the TB. Both sound amazing, but i'll be keeping the TB for now (until next upgrade, oh no!)
Anyway, what i wanted to tell everyone is that i now have a 3 meter (10ft) pair of William Tell bi-wire for sale at very (very!) good price. I also got a great deal on them as they were previously a demo pair for a European dealer i buy lots of AQ stuff from (especially power cords).
Feel free to email me
amyr
(at)
bezeqint.net
Shipping will be from Israel.
Peace.
O'
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I owned the Thunderbird Zeros for a couple of years. They are miles ahead of what the Silversmith Fideliums will do for you. I had the Fideliums at home for a couple of weeks. They weren’t that great. Nice bass, huge loss of high end detail with the Fideliums. If you didn’t know what you were missing you’d like them.
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I bought the WT Silver true bi wire ((Zero and main cable). I loved the Thunderbird, but I felt the WT Silver were more neutral in my system and room. They seem more open with a better defined stage, including depth. Just so smooth with zero fatigue. Voices seemed a bit better fleshed out. I was listening/auditioning in shop, so not my main system.
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I had a similar question for AQ, and was advised that the William Tell Silver biwire would be a better choice than Thunderbird biwire (I did mention I have 96dB Tannoys). The cost for these 2 configurations is very close. I was also told this would handily beat my double run of AQ Kilimanjaro, which is their 12 AWG (9 AWG for a double run), 2nd from top Everest, all PSS silver cable from 2 series ago. The Kilimanjaros still sound fantastic to me (lots of detail AND body), so I’m taking my time with any upgrade.
And @ctsooner is making me want to snag a used Dragon for my Niagara 7000 or the solid-state Phison amp, dammit.
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Hi all
Anyone here go from William Tell bi wire to Thunderbird Zero?
Would love to hear your experience.
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That reminds me. I need to list my 2m pair of Hurricanes and the Niagara 1000. Thanks. |
Hi all, If anyone's interested in a 2 meter pair of Robin Hood bi-wire combo (silver bananas)- give me a shout. They're currently on eBay, https://www.ebay.com/itm/174614867219but will be happy to further discount the price if sold outside of eBay. Cheers! |
ctsooner
Thank You for the update. I did spend time with the Hurricane-it is excellent at price-point. I have not auditioned the Dragon.
Happy Listening! |
All burned in. Holy crap is this bliss. I can't believe how GREAT the Dragon cable from the Niagara 3000 to the dedicated outlet (Edison outlets) sounds. I installed my older Hurricane and kept going back and forth over the lsat week. The Dragon at that one choke point makes. a WORLD of difference. So inky black quiet with amazing micro and macro dynamics. All the AQ cables are neutral. Is the Dragon worth the price increase over the Hurricane? To my ears it's like an upgraded component. I didn't think it would have that big a difference. It should when you consider the price difference, but we all know cables/cords can only do just so much, but if your system let's you hear the differences and can scale, this will be a good way to see how much it will scale. I'd still look to upgrade a preamp or source before going to a Dragon from another cord, but at this level, you may need to go up 10k in a speaker or preamp. JMHO |
Try the Silversmith Fidelium SC's. You will be astonished at how good they are at any price, let alone their modest price. Real ear-openers. Neal
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Still burning, but man does this system sound better than anything I imagined I could afford. The new AQ line of cables is my favorite and that includes the even more expensive lines from some of the smaller companies that I've heard in my system. |
WOW, what a ride. New update:
I basically have sold all my cables and cords. I have a 2m Hurricane and 2m Basic power cord and Niagara 1000 that I'll soon put up for sale I think (unless I use it in my second system).
New set up is as follows:
Niagara 3000 with Dragon power cord into an Edison outlet that is on it's own circuit. All other power cords are Hurricane's and that includes on my Quatro's for the sub bass.
I use a Horizon (WEL Signatures first year's name, but identical to the WEL Signature) and the Fire IC into the Vandersteen M5-HPA mono's. Still using The Memory Player server with built in DAC and analog volume control. I'll be selling my digital soon and moving into something else (auditioning a few things)
I also am using the Fog Lifters. I have heard that at a dealer and the demo was great. Heard the slight (very slight) difference. They help manage the cable runs.
Still burning in. |
If anyone is looking for a pair of 8ft William Tell BASS speaker cables, I have some like new in the box for sale.
They are on USAM.
Sold my WT ZERO cables last week, as I moved up to the Thunderbirds!
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You could even do it yourself, i changed my 2m HC firebird from 15amp to 20amp in less than 10 minutes! No soldering at all, just screws )) |
@ctsooner you can always send the Hurricanes back to AQ to get re-terminated for a small fee, it's a simple process. |
Jim, thanks. We need to talk on phone and catch up soon!!! I can't afford a preamp right now, lol. I'm hoping and praying that the volume control they install in my server/DAC is of the highest quality. The designer built the Melos gear back in the day. It was OUTSTANDING sound wise, but broke down constantly. He's fixed all of that now and his designs are sublimed. We will see. I also need to get an electrician into my listening room to run conduits for the two dedicated circuits in the room that are on an adjoining wall. I moved the system 10 years ago and just never moved the circuits. I now have no choice as I don't have enough outlets on that wall to plug in the speakers, mono's AND the Niagara. Can't plug one mono into the Niagara and the other directly into the wall, lol... I'll have him put one circuit behind each speaker for the mono blocks and speakers and then a four pack behind the TV/server area for the Niagara and router/LPS unit that run that and the cable box, lol. I also just realized that I can't use my Hurricane cords on the Mono blocks due to them being 15amp and the amps being 20amp. DARN IT TO HECK!!! |
earthtone and Pete - how fun and congrats on the M5 amplifiers:-) i have ref6se envy for sure. have fun and enjoy the music |
@ctsooner I’m using the M5-HPA’s with 5A Carbons. The preamp is the mighty new ARC Ref 6SE. But at the time I was evaluating the WTs, I was borrowing Johnny’s Ref 6. I had been so satisfied with the PS Audio BHK Signature preamp. It’s checks off so many of the boxes - no added feedback, simple tube input stage, great value for the money. But whether it’s the mosfet output stage or the capacitors that are holding it back, it just sounds flat and saccharine compared to the ARC. It took the better cables to highlight the problem. The new ARC is sublime. I told RV how much I love it and he said he’s heard great things about it. The $64K question now is, is he going to roll out that rumored preamp he’s supposedly been working on? He set the bar incredibly high with the M5-HPAs.
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@ctsooner
If I were you I would try to borrow a CAD and see what it will do in your system. The CAD is eating ultrasonic noise which is not even supposed to be audible. Therefore it should not make any difference and its a safe bet most designers don't attempt to manage/suppress such noise. And yet, in my system and every system I've heard them added to, the sound improved. Sometimes by a lot.
I first heard these devices at Axpona in a demo by CAD where they had 5-6 ground controls on one system using their DAC and streamer. It was some of the most relaxing yet highly resolved digital sound I've ever heard.
And now I have cable envy reading this thread....
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Actually many of us do have a full understanding of break in Bo. It's not just you. Many of us also have great ears and can hear all the differences in time.
As for the grounding devices, I was speaking with Richard Vandersteen about this and he shared that if the electronics are designing their grounding properly, that the devices won't be needed as they won't add anything positive.
I now have his M5-HPA mono blocks (setting them up as I type this) and my server/DAC/analog volume control is also designed properly, so the CAD won't be in my future.
I'm using my WEL XLR interconnect with my William Tell Zero and WT Bass. Amps will be running directly into the wall on a dedicated 20amp circuit. I'm going to start off with Richard's power cords, but may upgrade to the Hurricane cords. I am using Hurricane on the Server/DAC. That goes into the Niagara/Hurricane power cord into another dedicated 15amp circuit. My router and cable box are powered by a dedicated LPS unit that goes into the Niagara. Router uses Wireworld ethernet cables (2) with a bespoke hospital grade filter before going into the server/DAC. That has an isolation unit built into it.
All of this still powers my Vandersteen Quatro CT's. Still need my buddy to come and put the 3" granite plinths under them. The plinth spreads out the vibrations and holds the speakers in place so they don't' move at all. It does make a positive difference in the sound. Richard walked me through this (I'll be adding washers to the rear to keep the rake in proper perspective as the tweeter will be 3" higher. Wow, I can't even believe where my system is at. Just blessed and I know it. Thanks all for letting me play. |
@ctsooner ,
Any way to incorporate an Ayre volume control? Now that would be a sweet combo.😋
@earthones,
Great post! And, spot on.
Bob
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Great post Earth. I totally agree with you. Which Vandy/amp/source are you using?
I have the new Vandersteen HP5's showing up tomorrow. I'll use an analog volume control being installed in my The Memory Player (server/DAC/volume control) to drive direct since I only use digital right now. The volume control will be one of the better ones. |
I compared WT Copper Zero vs Silver Zero biwired in my Vandersteen setup over the course of a few weeks. I kept returning to the Coppers because they seemed a little smoother and the Silvers I thought had a slight edge to them. However, I’m absolutely convinced that they were simply revealing an upstream problem, in the case harshness in my preamp. When I swapped in a better preamp, that harshness went away and I gained with superior resolution in the Silvers. So I believe your system quality should be commensurate for best results. |
I would imagine there should be a big difference between using just the Zero cable vs. adding the bass cable. You are essentially adding more copper and splitting bass from Treble/Mids.
While I liked the Thunderbird Zero cables, I always wondered how much better it would be with the Bass cable since they were designed to be used together. It's a bummer for people who cannot bi-wire their speakers. |
I use the copper bi wire WT's on my Quatro's and LOVE them. Transformative is a word that a few who know my system have used. Highly musical and never thin. Some equipment that is highly revealing can possibly sound 'thin' in the mids. I have had that with some 'silver' in my system or with gear that is considered 'fast' etc... What's thin to one may not be to others etc.. we all hear differently. Sorry it didn't workout, but I would call Johnny again. Let us know what you find out. |
@OP,
Interesting. I have no experience with any of your equipment, so I can't comment. But, I would call Johnny again with your impressions. Given his knowledge of equipment, I am sure he would have some suggestions.
All I can say is when I listened to the William Tell's with the Vandy VLR's, Belles integrated, and Aurender N100, it was a serious upgrade from the lower grade AQ cables (GO-4?).
As far as 'Horses for courses', I think so much of this hobby is not only system dependent, but 'listener dependent', though if both you and your wife felt a similar discord, then there must be something not clicking.
Whether it is the cables or something upstream or a combination of both is the question.
Bob |
Update - I tried William Tell Silver, They had very wide image, and were more open on top than my old Aspens, but overall really did not compliment my McIntosh c2600, Levinson 335 and Logan 13As to my or wife's ears. The lower mids were a bit thin (lacked male vocal fullness) and upper mids could be sharp if saxophone was hot in mix. I tried both Nordost Tyr2 and AQ Earth Interconnects to no avail. I tried pair of Wildwood spkr cables and seemed more musical, balanced and sorted throughout Midrange. Firebirds may have worked better, but can't afford them. Horses for courses I suppose. |
Thanks Bob, All,
I spoke with John, very knowledgeable! He recommends Robin Hood Silver or W. Tell Silver for Logan ESLs. Think I'll have to spend bit extra for the W Tell Silver. Also recommended some stone between speakers and wood floor.
Much appreciated. Matt |
@meuch I would go with either Thunderbirds or William Tell Silvers. The Robin Hoods are pretty low gauge in comparison.
I have personally tried Thunderbird Zero cables with ML 11As and was overall impressed with transparency and resolution. I had WEL ICs and they worked well together. The Thunderbirds are very different the prior model Oaks. They will sound closer to older gen silver than copper.
That being said, I have spoken to dealers who absolutely love the William Tell Silver. I think they had them paired with Vandersteen speakers as I recall.
Either direction you go they will both be very transparent and true to source. This is a good thing and also bad if you are looking to use cables to balance sound. As an example I had the Luxman 509x paired with the 11As and when I switched to the Thunderbirds I thought it lacked bass. I replaced the Luxman with a Vitus RI-101 and it was like adding 2 sub-woofers into the room. The difference wasn't as apparent with older model AQ cables.
I second @gdnrbob's recommendation, I have spoken to John @Audioconnection and he is very knowledgeable and straight forward. He actually talked me out of upgrading a while back.
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@meuch,
I would buy what you can comfortably afford.
IMHO, AQ cables will not dissapoint.
If you want a good person to discuss the differences, I suggest PM'ing Audioconnection, or call John Rutan at Audioconnection.
Yes, he is a dealer, but he knows his stuff, and can give you the most accurate, free advice out there as he knows not just the brands he sells but just about anything out there.
Bob |
I'm running AQ Aspen with Martin Logan 13ESLs. I have some Silver in my Interconnects. I'm torn on Thunderbird vs Robin HoodSilver (about same price), or W. Tell Silver which is 1000 more. Any recommendations? |
Ive been using the Thunderbird speaker wire now for a couple of weeks. Big improvement over my old Aspen. Anyone that has Aspen or Oak and are thinking about upgrading it is worth it. |
I'm sure it will get to another level. Guys, before you start to mix cables, you may want to call your dealer or AQ directly. I had been told not to do that as they aren't designed to be used with the other models. |
Eager to get my setup upgrade consisting of Furutech Rhodium wall socket, Thunder High Current cables for Niagara 5000 and both mono amps (Devialet 440 Pro with Coax Coffee digital cable) and Robin Hood Zero/Bass bi-wiring cable. This all together should get it to another level :)) |
Bob, the new AQ speaker cables have two components a treble/mid cable and a bass cable. The treble/mid cable is called Zero and the other is called Bass. You can use the Zero cable as a stand alone cable or combine it with Bass cable for bi-wiring.
For power the High Power is a thicker cable for high current components like amps and the Source cable is a smaller gauge meant for source component like DACs etc. |
Yes I believe to make a wording connection with the technologies incorporated in the power cables already. But seems there are hardly any reviews of speaker cables of folk heroes or mystical creatures in magazines so far, which is sad. |
I wish AQ would make an easier to understand nomenclature.
Zero?- What does it refer to?
At least the power cables are differentiated by High Power and Source, but I don't understand why they just don't say Upper Frequency and Low Frequency for their speaker cables.
I guess it is a Marketing decision.
B
And, nice to see you back ctsooner. Did you get my email earlier this month?
bob |
I have Thunderbird Zero cables on order. Really looking forward to hear what difference there will be.
I'm coming from Audioquest Aspen which are the same gauge. I might try using the Aspen for the bass bi wire until I can get the Zero bass. |
mark, to my ears it wasn't close at all. I think with AQ the steps are larger between products than with other cable companies I audition. The Robin Hood are CRAZY CRAZY good and to me, the best value in their high end speaker cables. I just felt in my system, the Tell's were well worth the upgrade from the Hoods, but if I had the Hoods, I wouldn't even think about an upgrade. I forget the price difference, but it's not small if I recall. Garth just gets it. |
Robin Hood should be really close to William Tell - eager to get them. |
Sorry I missed all the posts. Someone asked about William Tell zero with bass vs Castle Rock. I owned Castle Rock and installed the WT zero/bass. It was a HUGE difference. It was as though I bought a new amp and preamp that were a few rungs up the ladder. It's transformative in my system. Even during burn in, I could tell what it was. They kept getting better all the way up to nearly 1000 hours. I played them for 24/7 to get to the best they could sound as quickly as possibly. I was gone for a week and let them run. My buddy was looking after the dogs, so if there were problems, he's have shut it down.
You can't even compare the older line of speaker cables to what Garth has put out here. He's working on the interconnects, but they won't have nearly the difference as the cords and speaker cables have. I run all Hurricane with WT zero/bass and a balanced WEL interconnect from DAC to integrated. I was told not to sell the WEL for the new interconnects just yet. I'll have to see how the WEL stands up vs the new ones.
AQ is a great company. I can't wait to see what Bill has in store for Golden Ear speakers. |
I had the Thunderbird Zero cables and before than Oak and Mont Blanc. The new cables are in a different league in terms of transparency and resolution. Of course this is all system dependent and personal preference whether you would like it.
One thing that I noticed was that the Thunderbird Zero cables have less copper than Oak but cost more. It also seems they keep raising prices every year. |
I am using a Devialet 440 Pro on a B&W 803 D3 with Roon (MQA, lossless formats). So a high resolving setup. And it’s really incredible to see what impact the different loud speaker cables can have on the sound.
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just saying if you have good(and i mean good) cables already and were contemplating a large purchase of very expensive cables i would want to be sure that my front end was spot on. i’ve had many expensive cables and find(for me) that the major differences lie along dark/bright lines with bass and smoothness thrown in. ymmv |
@4425 .
I would suggest you listen to these new cables. I, too, felt cables couldn't make a great difference, but an audition of the William Tell's definitely changed my mind.
B |
