Hi Tylercoupe. I have a REF3 LE and REF Phono 2 which had been "modded" by Steve Huntley (GNSC) when i got them new from the Dealer. Looking at some of the pictures from the link above shows stunning similarities between my modded units and those in the SE models. The main differences, at first glance, are those teflon coupling caps that i do not have in my 2 units although several Caddock resistors have been installed in key signal path and additional Black Gate caps in the power supply mounted on the side rail the same way ARC has done it.
I'm intrigued about your assessment of the REF 150 and 250's though. I currently have a pair of Classic 120's (circa 1990) also modded by GNSC. As good as they are, I am considering replacing those with the 150 or a pair of 250's.
Truthfully, i would have to take a second mortgage on my house to afford the 250's at $26K but could however manage the 150 or a used pair of 210's with KT120's.
My speakers are Verity Audio Parsifal Ovation.
Happy listening and Happy New Year !!
Sly. |
Tylercoupe,
I don't know I would agree that the Ref 5 is any more than 80% of the 40th AE. I had them both for a while and when swapping back in the Ref 5 the sound compared to the AE was thin (something I never thought I'd say about the Ref 5!) and had far less speed, macro and micro dynamics were no contest, the AE blew away the Ref 5, the background was quieter too. In fact, while the AE definitely has better bass control, that was the one aspect that was least significant in my system.
While I am sure the better value likely lies in the Ref 5 SE (especially as you can't buy and AE anymore!), their is no way it comes that close to the 40th AE! |
Kenny
I would not ever use the word thin with ARC Ref series. I do agree that a lot of the improvement you hear is due to AE being so neutral that it gets out of the way and just presents the performance...no signature at all. The AE is a great preamp...one of the best. I still believe the changes to the Ref5 SE will take the 5 very close to that level. I will wait and listen to both and then provide my findings. Enjoy your AE....it's a special component. |
Smoff
I am not familiar with your speakers or amps so tough to make a call. What I can say is that GNSC makes real improvements and will typically make improvements that ARC could not at it's product design price points. Sadly, Steve and ARC no longer play nicely together so upgrades no longer available. I have a ref 2 mk2 and VS115 both upgraded by GNSC and it is a great combo. I am replacing w/ref150 and 5SE. But the vs115 w/GNSC was good enough to not lose out to the Ref110. And I am not willing to sell these units
I expect the Older Ref amps (210/110) may sound better than your older classics...but if you are enjoying them now...I would not jump to 210...watch and wait for a 150.. If the 120s give you enough power now...that should be perfect amp...the Ref 3 can continue to be control...I imagine your system sounds great now...a little more classic ARC...which isn't bad...enjoy while you wait. |
Tyler,
The difference went far beyond the AE being more neutral. The attack was so much more dynamic it was amazing, I agree I never thought I'd use the word thin to describe the Ref 5 which was my own personal reference for a few years but compared to the AE? Hate to say it but it is! |
Cool...it's great to find a component that really works in your system
I will let the SE break-in some and then bring the AE over to compare. I won't be able to replicate your experience as I will use Ref 250 monos for the "cage match" and I think you use a 3 channel Evo. I use Transparent Ultra throughout... But speakers will be the same...Sasha right...wonderful speaker. I expect differences but not dramatic...much like the improvements the 250s provided over the 150...but will report what I hear.
Bottom line is you are happy regardless of whether 5SE is 95 or 99% of AE...all three of these preamps are great. And at this level we discuss relative changes...and the price people are willing to pay for those is highly dependent on individual preference...and there is no right answer...just some answers cost more than others. :) |
Hi Tylercoupe:
I have Ref 150 and Sashas and am quite happy with the combo. But as you know the Sashas are difficult to drive in the mid- upper bass/low midrange between the impedance and negative phase angle. I'd like more thrust there but at reasonable cost.
When I had WP 7s and tried Ref 110s and 210s. I found, as you did with Ref 150 vs 250, that the lower powered model came close enough that I stuck with the Ref 110s. The biggest differences I found were a greater sense of dimension and ease with Ref 210s. I did not find the dynamics on the 210s to be more than 10% better than the 110s. Have you tried both amps with Sashas? Can you quantify the differences esp in the mid/upper bass? |
Ture Dat Tyler!
FWIW I use Transparent Ref XL in my rig, love their cables! |
Kenny, Enjoy your system...I think our system structures are remarkably similiar. I have a hybrid system similiar to yours which does double duty as HT/2 channel system. I have an Ayre KX-R in between the Classe ST-SSP and the ARC Ref 250s...When the SSP turns on a HT source...the Ayre and 250s trigger on as well with Ayre in passthrough mode...Rest of HT is 2 JL212s, Wilson Center 3 and Surrounds 2 powered by DS450M(C3) and DS225(S2).The HT sounds wonderful using an Ayre DX5. But when I want to listen to my Naim HDX server/DAC8 or LP12SE/Phono2SE...I just turn on the Ayre and 250s manually...and listen to a reasonably good 2 channel system. All three soucres flow balances through the Ayre Easy for family to use and satisfies me for critical listening. I think you found a similiar solution with your setup. here are some pics of how my setup turned out...also shows my study system based on Stax stats and Woo audio energizer...go to my gallery http://gallery.me.com/npdomino/100048 |
4blue
I bought the Ref 150 in July at the same time as the Sashas and had them in the same system unitl November. The system is a hybrid 2Ch/HT system with Wilsons throughout. I love the 150 and at normal listening levels...I feel its very close to the 250s. The 250s are more defined and controlled in the lower registers...say Charles Mingus plucking the bass has more definition and speed...with just the right amount of reverb... and provide a slightly wider and more transparent soundstage at normal listening levels. Female vocals/violin/sax have a magic in this region on both amps that I have found SS amps just can't compete with. The 150s would play loud, the Sashas are faily efficient...but the 250's maintain composure at higher levels that the 150 can't compete with. At higher levels, the soundstage of the 150s start to compress and the bass articulation does start to muddy just a bit...this is all relative. I would take the 150s over almost any SS amp...and replaced a very good ML335 with them...but the 250s seem to be the best fit for this system. The 150 is moved to my cabin and will be mated with a Ref5SE and Wilson Duettes...I love this combo...it replaced a Ref2mk2 and VS 115...and is perfect for nearfield listening. I listen mainly to jazz and small scale classical. |
Nice system Tyler!
I have mine all run from a Harmony 890 remote so when I want 2-channel I simply ask for that setup and only my two channel gear turns on (except for the EMM Labs which doesn't have remote power on!?!?)
I agree with you that Wilson's are efficient but they really don't act that way! I run mine off 400 WPC Krell Evo 403e and almost went to the 600e's but talked myself out of it, they like power and need an amp stable into less than 2 Ohm loads so needs loads of current.
I bet the ARC 250s work very well with them! |
Thanks Tylercoupe. Nice summary. |
Tyler, I posted this thread in another OP, but thought I would repeat it here.
"I am unsure about getting my Ref 5 upgraded. I'm concerned the SE may be way out of balance with the rest of my system. Alternatively, if I was to drop the bucks of an SE upgrdae (whatever it is) into my system, I might do better waiting to change out my PH-7.
"Just not sure?? Also not sure how long ARC will do the SE upgrade. Maybe for the indefinte future??? Maybe not??
"I'm standing pat on my amp. It's too close to the Ref 110 to change it out. If I change out the amp, IMO, it only makes sense to wait for Ref 150s to hit the pre-owned market.
"At this point, IMO, digital "redbook" CD (actual discs) is generally just fair, so I'm not motivated to change out my CD-7 CDP. Think I'd rather get a DAC 8 instead.
Any thoughts??"
Thanks.
BTW, my system description is listed on A'gon. |
Kenny,
Are you still enjoying the Krell 403e? I picked one up a couple of weeks ago as well. It's a very good sounding amp but it sure puts out lots of heat. It's has smoother and fuller sound than my old FPB 450MCX.
Did you consider replacing the 403e? |
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Sfstereo and Kennyt, what IC and SC are you guys using with your Krells? |
I use Audioquest Sky IC and Everest SC. |
Transparent Ref XL MM2 balanced IC and single run speaker wires. |
Boisehomes, I tried an LS26 with my Krell FPB400cx, running 10T's. It replaced a VTL tube pre at the bottom of the VTL line. It was very disappointing. The mid's were very nice, but the deep low end that 10T's are capable of disappeared. Really anemic. I sold it and got a Krell KCT. The bottom end came back in spades, and it's really smooth, though I'll admit I lost some midrange magic. I'm thinking that a Ref5 might do the trick to get both, but that budget's a little ways off. |
I was just here where you are: Krell MXC350 monos
purchased a pre-owned AR Ref5. Back to back comparison to the Krell HTS 7.1. Took some listening. The Wilson WP7 have had a hard, bright, edge to the high range. Ref 5 removed that edge. Some music was fatiguing and I could not put my finger on why. the highs now are humm buttery maybe, more musical, more organic less harsh. in any event the sound has improved although back to back was required. Bass however was a very pleasant surprise. The krell was muddy (dare I say that about krell) as compared. the Ref 5 brought a lot more punch and very good low hertz definition. Some tracks on Stanley Clark Bass Days no longer have a muddy thump but now have a very discernible pluck of the bass , not there before. Is the Ref5 a huge change, no, is it worth the dollar upgrade, to me yes ( my wife, no). However I can now listen without the fatigue and that makes it worth the investment to me. I agree with the previous post, a bought a 20 % improvement |
Flex2,
Do you have any observations about the Elrods vs. the Shunyatas? |
