Sherod and La45, have you had a chance to install RX8man's isolation kit and what do you think? My unit is with Joseph at the moment and we are contemplating having him float the board.
Sherod - any further interm update on the V caps progress? Once the bypass caps have broken in, will you be A-B comparing them to the V caps alone?
Thanks Joe |
Rgd Thanks for taking the time to answer thoroughly. Some nice equipment there, plenty of sensitivity for a good evaluation! |
Source is a Sony xa9000es for SACD and a transport into an Audio Note DAC 2.1x for redbook. Amp is a Bryston 14B-SST. Speakers are Talon Audio Ravens. Treatments are minimal with Eighth Nerve response treatments.
The AH was burned in 24/7 over 3 weeks with a tuner signal running through it (when I wasn't listening to it) and I have three 20A dedicated lines one of which is allocated to the preamp.
The following preamps were recently in my system; Lamm LL2 deluxe, Hovland HP-100, Bryston BP-26 and Lamm L2 ref. The AH is a very nice preamp and certainly a huge value as it ran very well agaisnt the Hovland and "baby" Lamm. As for the Lamm L2 ref it just brought more to the party - better dynamics, deeper soundstage and more detail/realism than any other preamp thats been in my rack. |
Rdg
Thank you for your input. May I ask what your source, amp and speakers are and whether your room is accoustically treated? I am very curious to see what the AH does well with and what perhaps is better served by a different pre.
Joe |
Sherod,
No evaluation yet, he's been waiting a long time for the Ref 3, and is quite irritated.
As usual, this whole preamp scenario boils down to break-in procedure, your electricity supply, your system, your tube selection (if applicable) your ears and preferences.
I'd like to arrange a comparison, or if someone else here can compare or borrow a Ref 3, that's fine too, I'm curious to hear the results. |
Wow! The first person to say that they've returned the AH preamp. Thanks for your candor. Hopefully the AR preamp will be more to your liking, Rgd. Keep us posted on your impressions after your evaluations. |
Did the soon-to-be Ref 3 owner have a chance to evaluate the TP 2.0 preamp? |
Well I haven't compared the AH to a Ref 3 but I have compared it to a Lamm L2 Ref - the AH was returned. Its a very nice preamp and a great value at its pricepoint but unlike everyone else here it just didn't float my boat. My next audition will be the ARC LS-26. |
I asked that same question to a soon-to-be REF 3 owner ! |
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Has anyone compared the TP 2 to the ARC Ref.3? Would like to hear your opinions.
Thanks, Frank |
Seeing that the door to comparisons has been opened my former pre was an Aesthetix Calypso,which the AH easily bested.Power is a Cary V12,and I'm using Balanced Silver Bullet 6's interconnects.No tube rush,no hiss,the blackest of blacks between musical passages.I continue to be amazed. |
Rob Thanks for posting what you had before the AH preamp. I think it helps us all get a sense of what the AH does with different equipment |
~
It occurs to me that I never mentioned the preamp that my TP2.0n replaced. It was a Spectron Model 10. I really liked it overall - it had some great features - but with a Spectron Musician II Class-D amp, a digital-only source, and Magnepan 3.3/R speakers, the Spectron preamp was a bit *too* precise & detailed, with a real edginess at the high end, particularly when the volume was up to a substantial level.
Joseph's preamp was a marked improvement in warmth and musicality, without sacrificing the incredible detail that the Maggies can provide. It really didn't take us long to decide to keep the TP2.0.
/Rob |
Hi folks. I thought I'd give you a little capsule update on my cap upgrade experiment. I'm trying to be low-key and subtle on this experiment, because I don't want anyone to think that the preamp as is from Joseph with the Hovland caps is some type of sacrificing of musical enjoyment. It is not. Joseph has made a great preamp that is a genuine bargain, regardless of which version you choose. Joseph is out of the country right now and I don't want him to feel that we few tweakers of his preamp are trying to re-think, so to speak, his design. I just had to try this new V-cap from VH Audio because I had read so many wonderful testimonials about it, both from highly revered modifiers and manufacturers as well as from amateur tweakers like myself. The OIMP V-caps have about 400 hours on them now so they should be fully burned in, if not 90% or better. To my ears the V-caps are still better than the Hovlands. They just pass more information in all regards. But after continuing my evaluations using a wide variety of music that I'm very familiar with as well as different source components, I'm realizing now that the V-cap OIMP's have a very slightly added warmth and roundness, if you will, to the sonic portrait. This is not a bad trait or signature. Even with this signature, I would probably still live with it in my preamp as opposed to the Hovland simply because it lets through more information in a satisfying way for my tastes. So I contacted the designer of the V-cap, Chris, and he suggested that I try bypassing the OIMP with a much smaller V-cap teflon to see if the combination would give me more of a less warm and round texture to the sound. I then had a few e-mail exchanges with a very knowledgeable modifier, Bill Baker of response Audio, and he too recommended that I bypass the OIMP's with a smaller V-cap teflon, recommending a .10 uf value to blend with the 4.0 uf value of the OIMP. I bit the bullet and paid the extra $100.00 for the V-cap teflon bypass caps( I now have a little over $200.00 invested in this cap experiment replacement. A little high probably for the budget conscious, I know) but being a perfectionist, I just had to try this final tweak). I installed the bypass caps last night. It took much less time than the OIMP as I just piggy-backed the bypass to the OIMP and then carefully tied down all caps to fit tightly and securely to prevent microphonics. I have had it now playing overnight and the sound does indeed have better neutrality( read a little less warmth) but doesn't sound as good as the OIMP's by themselves. I'm attributing this to the fact that the teflons need at least 200 hours of burn-in before they really open up and show their capabilities. I have been told and read that the teflons need @ 400+ hours to achieve 95% of their attributes. So I probably have another two weeks before I can make a realistic evaluation to report. In the meantime, fellow TP 2.0 owners. Just let ole Sherod be the guinea pig for the time being and you rest easy enjoying your preamp as is. Joseph will be back in the good old USA next week and Victor told me that Joseph was going to order some V-caps to do his own experimenting, so I suggest you all wait until the Master, Mr. Chow, gives you his opinions. I don't want to create a monster here by thinking that everyone should go out and replace your caps. Please be patient and let the evaluations unfold and then make your decisions. Happy listening everyone and enjoy the music. Stay tuned for some hopefully final comments within the next few weeks to wrap up this cap test. |
Folks,
I just received the plexiglass cover from Rx8man. It looks great on the TP 2.0! Nice job on the cutting Pat. I hope to install the kit for the circuit board isolation and report back on the change. Again courtesy of Rx8man.
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Thanks for the compliment Joe !
By the way, my circuit board isolation works great, it makes the preamp smoother and quieter than before !
I've had it playing for a few days now, and all is well.
It takes a philips screwdriver, being careful and patient, but not impossible to achieve.
I mailed two kits out to Sherod and La45 for evaluation, I'm awaiting their feedback.
Anyone else interested or brave enough (ha!) let me know. |
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Joe, you might check with Mauimods and see if they have any experience with using the V-caps in your dac. There might be a key location where a V-cap will work wonders. |
Thanks Sherod and Rxman for being pioneers on these units. It will be another week before I get my DAC back (having it modded by Mauimods, then will get system up and running and be ready to explore new things with the AH |
Hello fellow TP 2.0 preamp owners. Just a word of advise regarding the V-Cap OIMP capacitors. Several people have e-mailed me regarding interest in this cap to put in the outputs of their preamps. If you have never soldered anything or done any of this type of tinkering with electronics, I highly recommend that you either take your preamp to a local and reputable service tech to put these caps in for you or pay the shipping to have Joseph do it for you. There is very high voltage in the preamp and unless you follow detailed instructions provided by Joseph to perform while installing the caps, you could either injure yourself or do damage to the preamp and/or tubes. I was able to successfully remove the Hovland caps and replace them with the V-caps, but I was very careful in how I did the procedure. It took me about 1 1/2 hours to finish the installation, but only because I took my time, rested in between, and was over-cautious. If I had more experience and wasn't so anal about things, I probably could have done it in half the time. At 9:00 P.M. this evening, MST, I will have 216 hours on these V-caps. My last impression on them was at approx. the 150 hr. mark and at this point I am still, if not more than, enthusiastic about these V-caps. I have read the beta-tester's reports, and some claim that up to 300 hours and even beyond, the sound will continue to improve. The total I paid for the pair of caps from VH Audio was $113.44, which included UPS shipping. This seems a lot for two capacitors, but as this cost was less than what any of my interconnects or power cables cost me, I feel that they were a bargain. Also, cap value for your preamp is different depending on what model of the TP 2.0 you have. Joseph is in Taiwan for business/personal reasons and won't be back home until March 25th, at which time Victor told me that he had something like 15 tuners waiting for him to do his modifications on, so he's going to be a busy man for a while. I expect that on Joseph's return, he will order a few of the V-Caps to do some critical listening for himself. Assuming Joseph gives these caps his blessing, you might want to wait until he gives his opinion. In the meantime, the Hovland caps are extremely musical and make the preamp a joy to listen through. To my ears, however, the V-caps just allow more musical information to pass through to give you an even higher level of listening bliss. Stay tuned for more updates.
P.S. As a side note, Rx8man has come up with a neat little tweak of floating the main circuit board which gives the preamp even better isolation and should improve on the sound. The tweak is very inexpensive, involving four special screws and a couple of special washers and voila, you have a "floating" circuit board. Rx8man has already installed this tweak and he says it makes a nice improvement. I am going to acquire the floating kit and try this tweak out next week. But first, I want to give the V-Caps their full burn-in and final evaluation before I make any other changes. I've learned the hard way to not change horses in the middle of the stream. Happy listening to all ! |
To me the tube changes are to fine-tune the preamp to one's musical preference, room, and equipment. I could be very very happy with the preamp with the stock EH or Siemens provided, but it is fun to see what other sounds can be experienced. |
What scares me is what other audiophiles considering trying Joseph's preamp are thinking about all these tweaks the current users are doing to the preamp. I would probably be asking, " If Joseph's preamp is a world beater in stock form, why in the world would you do anything to try to improve on it?" Well, the only tweaks I have done to mine and both were approved by Joseph, are to upgrade the two main tubes and now the experimenting with the V-caps in the outputs. My answer to this is that both are reasonable tweaks that any audiophile worth his salt would consider doing if it meant extracting that last nth-degree of subtle nuances from an already amazing preamp. No Trolls wanted on this thread. |
Way to go Sherod.
Count me in on this one. |
Regarding "Joe's Tube Lore", this is one man's opinion, of tubes in his system, in one component(his dac, I believe), so take his recommendations as a " your mileage might vary" standpoint. Here's hoping that you'll all find the one tube that sounds best in your preamp. |
Hi guys. I don't know if eveyone remembers but about a week ago, I replaced Joseph's upgraded Hovland output caps with the V-cap OIMP caps and after 150 hours of break-in my jaw is still on the floor. I will post a little mini-review when they reach their 300 hour or so final break-in. I can, in the meantime, confidently state, IMHO, that after 96 hours, the V-caps handily surpassed the Hovland by many orders of magnitude. I have e-mailed Victor to order a pair for he and Joseph's evaluation, so when and if this happens, you might want to get some more opinions, but at this juncture, I feel that Chris Ven Haus has developed a revelatory cap that turns Joseph's already amazing bang-for-your-buck preamp into a truly world class preamp of immense musicality. I am drawn now into the music more than ever before and am hearing things that surpass what any tweak or component that I've ever added to my system. I am truly amazed at the differences. Stay tuned for a final update in about a week or so. |
No problem - thought it would be good to have it here as a reference. Plus I wanted to hear any varying opinions about its accuracy to see if we can use it as our Siemens Bible. |
Guess what Gammajo ?
I returned from Joe's Tube Lore and a couple other sites after Googling ECC88 and E188CC !!
Sorry to put you through the paces dude, I was gettin lazy.
Hey, at least it will be there for the rest of the groupies to see !!
Thanks much. |
Best I understand, and I am new to this, is that in the family of 6DJ8 tubes which are used in the AH preamp, the 6922 and 7308 designations were premimum versions of the 6DJ8 rated as 10,000 hours with 6922 the premium industrial version and 7308 the guareenteed low noise version. European designations for these same tubes are the 6DJ8=ECC88, the 6922=E88CC, and the 7308=E188CC. According to Joes Tube Lore:
The Siemens E88CC is characterized by warm, lively, palable and real quality to individual performers, not recommended if your system is already bright. The ECC88 is similar with a slightly forward balance, the E188CC is preferred by him to the cca as slightly warmer, more vibrant and wetter, and is his favorite Siemens, though he prefers Amperex. He describes Siemens cca's (Victor's favorite)as pricey, slightly more dimensional, transparent, and focused compared to these others but lacking a bit of bass punch and slightly dry in comparison. And best I understand the early sixties version of all these tubes tend to be better than late sixties and newer. These early version ofetn come in yellow/blue boxes and have all gray plates. Later version may be in orange/blue boxes. A full guarenteed quad of early cc'a is currently selling on ebay for about $1,600 which puts them out of my league if I want to stay married, which I do:). Hope this helps. Anyone agree or disagree with the descriptions or terminology? |
La45 and Gammajo,
I have a Shunyata King Cobra V-1 on my preamp and two more for my trans and dac, so that's pretty over-kill for me.
As far as the Siemens, I'm a bit mixed about the *ECC88* non-gold pins I have, and the *E188CC* gold pins Gammajo has.
I'll call Joseph or a tube source to find out what, if any sonic differences exist.
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No White Falcon label on the Siemens, just E188CC |
Rxman Yes the sound stage appears wider, yet less difuse with better localization of instruments. I think that it is also a bit deeper but not dramatically so.
La45 Thanks for the suggestion I have his XLR interconnects, but already have Guerilla audio power cord that I like. I guess I can try on the 30 day trail. Who know how much better it can get with this preamp! |
Pat and Gammajo,
I wanted to share my experience with you. I mentioned this before and I am more convinced that Joseph's power cord is an absolute match with the Audio Horizon's TP 2.0 pre. I just played Basia's "Time and Tide" cd and I am enthralled with its sound. I am using the Black Sand Silver Reference on the SET amp with Joseph's PC and the combo is "magic". I have this disc on LP and am familiar with Basia's voice in a live performance venue.
Its an INSANE bargain not to try it out. Its the Premium power cord for $190.00!
Gammajo please keep us informed when you get your source together. |
Gammmajo,
Does your Siemens have a white falcon logo on them ?
I'm interested in trying the Amperex you mentioned.
Are you getting a larger stage size with the Amperex ? |
I received four matched Amperex 7308 White Lable PQ's today. Initial listen is wonderful. Best I can describe they seem a bit wetter and warmer than the Sieman gold pins (provided as TP upgrade) with a nice sound stage and localization of instruments, lively, and a "break your heart" beauty to some passages. I am at some disadvantage in that my DAC is in for repair (one channel stopped working last week) and so I am using a Yahama DVD player as source at the moment. Can't wait to hear these tubes with my usual front end. (Well, I guess I will have to wait:) |
Ralphcast and Markwatkiss, good findings, thanks ! |
Ralphcast
Interesting polarity article - another thing to ponder. |
Thanks Mark - I queried him
Joe |
Hey guys,just wanted to share this with my US friends.New source for tubes thetoneshop@hotmailcom.Prices are in CDN$
I see he has some Siemens 1961 grey plates.If anyone is interested you're welcome to have them shipped to me in Sault Ste. Marie,Ontario and I will ship them to you from my business address in Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan 49783.That way you will avoid brokerage and duties. |
Hi fellow TP owners, I've been hung up on the subject of Reverse Polarity. I came across the subject on the soundstage site. It was written revering speaker leads for reversal will change the flow directions and will also affect resisters caps and so on here is the link for interest it's very informative!http://www.soundstage.com/maxdb/maxdb101999.htm |
My take on cryo is a conservative one. I chose zero degrees or above as the "safe" area to treat the preamp. No its not full Cyro treatment which reach -300 degrees. Risky without Joseph's approval.
The preamp (tubes included) has so much room inside that it creates its own ice box from all the metal. I have to say the preamp has improved with no adverse effects.
I am grateful to Rx8man for recommending the preamp to me I am forever grateful to Joseph for making it possible to evaluate the TP 2.0.
The improvements are in immediacy and 3-Dimensionality. Voices have realistic character and subtle details are more apparent. This is amazing to me at this stage of the break in period.
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Here is the preamp designer, Joseph's response to the cyro idea
"Joseph has gotten back to me and enumerated what hardware in the TP 2.0 he does cryo: The IEC, RCA's, XLR's and tube sockets. He is not comfortable with a complete unit cryo or semi-cryo and doesn't know what affect it would have on the unit in terms of performance or reliability. Each individual would have to decide for himself whether to chance it. More details about the means of semi-cryoing would be appreciated."
We are fascinating creatures. Given how great we think the preamp is and this inspires us to make it even better through tubes and tweaks. But is surely satisfying to start with such a wonderful product.
Joe |
There's some circuit board isolation going in my preamp tomorrow.
I have some other tricks in the making, following my isolation procedure (safe, even better sounding and totally reversible)
Details will follow later upon completion. |
Victor is sending these questions to Joseph but reports that they already cryo some of the components within the preamp. They have not ever cyro'd the whole thing. So - how brave, adventurous is our little club? Perhaps La45 is our pioneer! I would at least check if it voids the wareentee and probably, as an official cyro woose would go tenth instead of second in this grand experiment. |
I agree that freezing at zero is risky at the very best. One can buy a quad of nice Bugle Boy tubes used for $65 and get a warmer more organic sound without any risk of damaging the $3000 amp.
I know that cryo does seem to help the sound as I have done that to a Belles pre, wires and tubes. Zero degress in my home freezer is not cryo however.
This whole thing is most interesting to me to be honest. I am open minded, but must say it sounds very risky to me. |
I am leery of the freezer treatment of anything. Freezing is 32 degrees F. I don't know if there is scientific evidence that this temperature is sufficient to change the molecular structure of the item. I know there is evidence of true cryo treatment making changes on a molecular level, but true cryo is substantially lower than standard freezing. There are a couple of threads regarding freezing and double- freezing, wrapping in a plastic bag, etc. but it all seemed ludicrous to me. Maybe freezing does work, but I'm not comfortable enough with trying it out just yet. I have other tweaks in mind that to me would make a bigger difference, in general. YMMV |
LA45 I am glad that you are happy with the your preamp. What version did you get and what tubes are you using - the gold pins or regular Siemens? Curious about the cyro as I have never attempted. Can you walk us through this a step at a time? For example: Did you leave the tubes in? Did you wrap the unit? How long did you leave it in for? Is there a warm up time afterwards before you plug in the unit? Any dangers to watch for, aside from defrosting it and putting it on the grill, thinking it is a steak? |
Here's an interesting thread I started recently in another forum regarding the Siemens CCa tubes:
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tubes/messages/191763.html |
Sherod,
What I meant by semi cryo is freezing at zero degrees. If you were to do the full cryo its faster and the temperature is much lower in an controlled environment. |
Lou,
Can you explain what a semi-cryo'd treatment is? |
