McIntosh equipment sounds superb with Klipsch speakers, especially for hard rock. Good interconnect and speaker cables would be a nice improvement as well as some good power cords and a power conditioner. I own La Scala II's, Chorus II's (4), and Forte II's. Rotel equipment sounds real nice for the money with Klipsch too if McIntosh prices are too steep for your liking.
Are the Klipschorns mainly for Classical music ??
I recently purchased a pair of Klipschorns. I also purchased a pair of Cornwalls. It seems that the Cornwalls are crisp and clean and a shade boxy while the Klipschorns are a very open sound. I have found the Klipschorns to be very good for classical music and some Satriani and Eric Johnson. I find that classic rock leaves alot to be desired because the recordings seem to be less than what I expected. I would like to hear comments from Klipschorn owners as well as Cornwall owners......thanks
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Allsmiles: Greg....what driver updates would you suggest on the 78'sI seem to remember reading that the units used were from Eminence, but I'm not sure... I searched hi & low for the reference and couldn't find it -- sorry. Maybe Klipsch themselves could helpo if you put to them in the right manner (i.e. no responsibility for them, "outrageously" prived "aftermarket" drivers they couldn't realistically include in the commercial package, the advent of new components not available in '78, etc the usual corporate bull). Given the cabinet design, one can mathematically model the "ideal" driver characteristics; some people have already done so if I remember correctly. Furthermore, as you already own their "new" model they probably would be ready to help you with one of their earlier products. |
Like I said before I have no desire to own a 50,000-100,000 dollar system.You can spend less than $10K and have mind-blowing sound. Given that you like hard rock, I'd suggest a McIntosh SS amp, which mates well with Klipsch. Add a good tube preamp, some decent cabling, and a good source, and you're done. Like many others, I'm a huge fan of SET amps, but they do not push metal and hard rock like SS does. Darkmoebius, there is a familiar house sound between the K-horns, La Scala's and Belle's. However, there is a significant difference in the low-end response. I found the La Scala's to benefit tremendously with the addition of a subwoofer. They are rated down to 53Hz, and obviously, there is a lot to be heard (and felt) below that point. In addition, the K-horns expand the intimacy of the La Scala (and Belle) to concert size. They play much larger, and the instruments stage at a size that is more true to life. Hope that helps. |
So far I love the K-horns. I also think the Cornwall II's and the Forte II's are great speakers for their size. They seem to do very well with classic rock, hard rock, and metal. And believe it or not they also do very well with Celtic music......"Celtic Woman" is a phenomenal cd and dvd. Chloe who is the youngest of the Celtic Woman singers is such a pleasure with such an angelic voice. Meav. Lisa.and Orla are great too !!! |
Since you've got experience with so many different, what is your opinion of the K-horns vs. La Scala or Belle. Is there a big difference between all of them? I understand that the K-horns are true borner horns, but I don't really have that option in my living room. One side of my room has large, floor to ceiling, windows on both walls so I assume that would throw off the bass balance. The La Scala and Belle are traditional cabinets giving me more flexibility. |
I use some gold heavy duty connectors....I have no idea what brand they are. The speaker wire I use is probably a 10-12 gauge. My cd players are not high end. I mainly listen to my 2 pair of Klipschorns and 1 pair of Cornwall II's. I also listen often to 1 of my 4 pair of Klipsch KG 5.5's. I welcome all suggestions for upgrading any and all components. Right now I am listening to Uriah Heep "Look at Yourself" ....I never remembering it sounding this good. I always thought the K-horns were the ultimate but I am realizing that there is a new world out there. Like I said before I have no desire to own a 50,000-100,000 dollar system. Maybe one day I will think a little differently. Thank you for your info on amps. |
I do have a hard time parting with 2000-3000 dollars for components but I may just have to bite the bullet. I am just an average guy who loves classic rock, hard rock, and metal.No need to spend more than that, probably near the lower end of that range. Buy quality used equipment and approach each purchase as short term audition since this is your first foray into tubes. There is a huge difference in the sound of different manufacturers and even models within a line. But, it is possible to buy a component, listen to it for a few months, then sell it without losing any money if you are patient. First, see if anybody here on A'gon, Audio Asylum, or even the Klipsch forum lives near you and would bring some tube gear over to hear in your system. That's how I got my first taste of tubes. There are plenty willing to help. And if you've really got 22 Klipsch sets, I'm sure quite a few fanatics would just like to see them all. If that isn't possible, consider an integrated amp since this is your first foray into tubes, it will save you the headache of trying to get components that excel together while getting used to tubes. There are great current production and classic integrated amps that should do everything you need and more. BAT, VTL, Manley Labs, Audiomat, McIntosh, etc. (the only possible problem is that most integrated, and preamps for that matter, aren't designed to be used 100dB+ speakers. So, fine volume adjustment could be a potential issue) You don't need monster power, though some on the Klipsch forum definetly prefer it, but you need enough to drive dynamic swings. With your musical preferences, I'd start with good push-pull tube amps in the 40-60 watt range. It is possible to drive with a flea-watt(my preference) 6-10 watt amps, and many find 20W better. But, for a first experience you want a lot of headroom for explosive swings on hard rocking sessions. Manley Labs integrateds are my first suggestion. Eva Manley is a huge rock fan and builds pro audio amps. They are known for the drive and powerful low frequencies. Her Manley Stingray integrated is a highly respected and well-reviewed amp. It's 40wc, but don't let that number fool you, these suckers rock. You can get them for $2,250 new or ~$1,400 used. BAT (Balanced Audio Technology) also makes fantastic gear and has a more, high-tech, traditional look. Really first rate stuff all the same. There are a couple used VK-300x SE's for sale here in teh $3k range. These suckers drop 150 wpc and have an extremely pure, transparent sound. Any of the classic, or more recent, McIntosh integrateds would work, I'm sure. Also, what kind of interconnects and speaker cables are you using? What kind of cd player are you using? |
I have to admit....I DO NOT want a 50,000-100,000 dollar system. I can spend what I need to on components. I do have a hard time parting with 2000-3000 dollars for components but I may just have to bite the bullet. I am just an average guy who loves classic rock, hard rock, and metal. My '78 Klipschorns sounds sweet now. I don't know much about high end equipment apparently. I honestly thought I owned pretty good stuff. Any suggestions are appreciated. |
Lordy Allsmiles, you've got the Klipsch bug bad! 22 speakers and you've never really tried any different electronics? The world is about to split open for you. You haven't indicated your price range for components, so it is hard to make suggestions. Perhaps filling in the rest of your electronics will help, too. What type of cd player or dac do you have? What's your preamp? Also, how big is your room? At a 101dB for the Cornwall II's and at least that or more for the Klipschorns, it won't take much to get them going. Though, I'd think those 15" woofers have got prefer a little power in the tank for big climaxes. If you are used to the power reserves of the Carver M1.5T and like to crank it, it might be best for you to start out with a really good push-pull amp. Something with grunt. Unfortunately, I'd suggest getting a new preamp at the same time or most the benefits of an amp upgrade would probably never shine through. Let us know how much you'd like to spend on both an amp and preamp, and I'm sure we can give you a great list of potential buys. |
I appreciate any suggestions. All information is greatly appreciated. I have 22 Klipsch speakers. I do love my Forte II's. The '92 Klipschorns are probably my best pair and the Cornwall II's aren't bad either. I have been in a Carver-Klipsch rut for many years now and I am willing to try some new gear. I love hard rock and metal....I was told I would grow out of it....BUT....it never happened !!!! Screaming guitars is my kind of music but I do listen to some mellow stuff. Criss Oliva was one of my favorite guitarists before he got killed in a car accident. I still listen to Savatage "Hall of the Mountain King"....I love that cd. Earlier today I listened to Black Sabbath I....it was better than I ever remembered. Dave Mustaine ain't bad either. There are too many great guitarists to count. |
Next up! Trying some different electronics from your Carver gear. I owned an all Carver system(M1.5T, C-3 preamp(?),TX-10 or 11 tuner, cassete, etc.) in college during the 80's w/ Klipsch Forte's. System kicked ass for late-night ear blistering heavy metal sessions. I actually gave it to a former college roommate 10-15 years ago when I moved a smaller apartment and he returned it when he got divorced ~7 years ago. It all got badly damaged when my house was robbed a year later. But, outside of etching glass, I'm not sure I would have much use for it these days. The Fortes weren't too bad when I hooked them up to a decent tube amp. A new solid cabinet and crossover rebuild probably would have made them great. There's not a lot that can be done for the Carver stuff. But, that's just my opinion now that I'm a flea-powered SET guy. There's probably more people who would disagree with me on that than would agree. |
Guess who hooked up the 78's wrong ??? Yes I did....I hooked the speaker wires in the wrong place. I got them in the correct place now and the highs are much better. Yes....I am feeling pretty stupid right now. Maybe I should ban myself from Audiogon for ignorance. I think I need to attend a class on Klipsch speakers and maybe a beginners course on electronics. It took a friend of mine to show me the error of my ways. My friend works on equipment all the time and I apparently know very little about my own equipment. Okay....who votes to ban Allsmiles from Audiogon. Please don't be too cruel !!! |
Warren....the 92's to my ears sound great "as-is" ...I am completely satisfied with them. I just want to get the highs back from my 78's. The 92's sound worlds better. I have no idea how a brand new pair sounds....never bothered to go listen to any since I live in a very rural area and would require a trip to a larger city. I have gotten info from Bob Crites, Dean Wescott and Al Klappenberger about new crossovers and haven't made a final decision on that. Any help or suggestions would be greatlt appreciated. |
Warren ....this is a pair of '78 Klipschorns.....the capacitors are 28 years oldand, so are the drive units, especially the bass units. Not musch tweaking as, maintenance... Tsk, tsk, Warren -- really:) I'm surprised the new K's are so much better (rather than brighter). I know that some of the VERY old K-horns used very good drive units but then Alnico prices went sky-hi & they had to revert to more sensible components -- and your '78s are probably in that category. It should be fun refurbishing these! One of the problems in this complex design comes from the transition from mid to bass; you either achieve seamless mid-bass to mid, or bass to mid (skipping the mid-bass). Klipsch and the K "community" have apparently solved this small issue somehow... |
After you do all these upgrades (in this case we're talking K-horn, but others as well. I'm not trying to single out these speakers) are you really left with a K-horn? Do "transformational upgrades" still equal K-horn..etc...Sort of like APL3910/Exemplar3910/Denon 3910/Dan Wright3910. The list goes on.. In this case, as in many, it appears that stock K-horns don't cut it. They require a plethora of upgrades to arrive at greatness. |
Boa2....the 92's sound so much better than the 78's. It is a world of difference. All my cds sound phenomenal now. I am one happy camper.....every day is like Christmas now !!!!I am really enjoying the 92's. I don't even have the 92's in the corners yet and they are awesome !!!! The 78's are in the corners of the room and I only have 1 full corner left in the room. I am listening to Robin Trower "Bridge of Sighs" right now and it is crisp clean and superb. I definitely got to do something to the 78's. |
If you have the original crossovers in those 78 K-horns, the caps are surely as dry as the Atacama Desert, making the speakers sound thin and edgy. Doing the mods (re-wiring with silver, updating the crossovers, installing the horn/tweeter kit from ALK OR dampening the original horns) are all transformational upgrades for the K-horn. Enjoy! |
Thanks Greg....I have already talked with Dan Wescott and Al Crites and have info about Al Klapp.(sp). I will try and google it. Thank you for the suggestion. I have heard the A crossover is better than the original AA crossover which came in the 78's. I also heard the ALK is a good replacement. I am not as knowledgable as many people on this site and the Klipsch Forum. I am trying to make the best decision but I am still amazed how much better the 92's are. I don't even have them in the corners of the room yet and they are totally awesome. Any help will be greatly appreciated. Thanks again. |
I finally got the '92 Klipschorns in the house and there is a tremendous difference in the sound of the '78 Klipschorns. The '92's sound so much better. The highs are abundant and the sound is awesome compared to the '78's. I think it is time for new crossovers in the '78's. I know it is not the cd player or preamp and amp now that is the problem. It is definitely something with the speakers. I guess I should consider new tweeter horns too. |
The newest pair of klipschorns are still in the Suburban but I did listen to them before purchasing and noticed a considerable better high end on rock music. The cdp preamp and amp were all high end I am sure. I am going to see what the Carver will do with it. This newest pair are '92's with AK-3 crossovers. I love the larger speaker cable connections. The '78's have such small connections....can I modify them to larger connectors ?? Saki..thank you for the cdp recommendations. FLAMES ???? |
Allsmiles ; the info that you received about upgraded equipment making so called "poorly recorded" CD's sound better is correct . As I have slowly upgraded my equipment , I am surprised at how some rock CD's that I had quit listening to , are now sounding much better ! I had attributed it to the coloring of the music by the equipment . Whatever the reason , the results are definitly worth it ! I know that you are seeking a CDP recommendation and this may be off topic but I would suggest the Granite 657 . I found it to greatly contribute to the above mentioned factor for CD's. It is in the near 3K range and is difficult to find used . The factory does offer a money back trial period if you like . It does have some comments here on Audiogon if you want to check it out . I also have heard and liked the upper end of the Cary line , at considerable cost increase . I think that either of these will help your rock music to sound better . NO FLAMES PLEASE |
Most of my collection is classical. i would never consider horns for classical. I need separation of the image. I can't stand whena speaker or a vacumm tube model blends everything into one "blob". Sure horns may deliver more dynamics over most cone speakers and over all panels. Which is why i looked for a cone that delivered with characterists of a horn. Something that married the best of both approaches. |
I'm very out of date. My experience with horns, including those of Klipsch, was for monaural listening. The rational for such horns, placed in the corner of a room, was that the adjacent walls extended the horn. The sectoral horn used in several of the systems for high frequencies was an extension of concept. I had thought stereo killed them off, because few rooms could accomodate a pair of corner horns. In the old days there were a number of such systems (unsure of spelling, JBL Hartsfield, ElectroVoice Patrician, Altec Voice of the Theater, and Klipschhorn to name a few. But along came Edgar Villcher at Acoustic Research with his long-excursion air-suspension speakers, and tar began pouring over the monsters. The small boxes lent themselves to stereo. Since then, there seems to be a general return to ported reflex enclosures. IIRC, Bozak was the first to use many moderate size cones to displace air. So the answer to the question of whether Klipshorns are mainly for classical music is obviously no. Anyone have a JBL Hartsfield out there? At the time, I thought they sounded great, but problably wouldn't now. Paul Klipsche and Edgar Villcher had several interesting debates at the annual Acoustical Society of America meetings, and I must admit to deserting the psysiological and psychological sessions to attend those debates. One of the great PK lines was something like, I don't care if you push it with a broom handle, you still have to move the diaphram to displace air. db |
Glassaud, Excellent combination between the 30's and SET's! I use a completely restored EICO hf-81 integrated tube amp with my 20's and Chorus II's. I upgraded the crossover networks in both pairs of spekaers and the difference is incredible. I do all the upgrade work myself and stand by my work. I offer a complete money back gauruntee if you don't like it. However, no one to this day has ever been even slightly unhappy. Mike |
I also owned K horns for years for many types of music, mainly rock, but my wife , who plays string bass, loved them for classical. I now own Klipsch KLF30's as she loves the bass, and through my 45/2a3/300b SET's sound very good on all program material. I must say they sounded terrible on Adcom amps the dealer had. When we hooked up my LP12, Counterpoint SA5.1 , SET I had brought, the dealer shut the doors, brought out the ashtrays, and said " I had always believed Klipchs were incapable of depth of soundstage , and had hard sounding tweeters.. I can't believe what I hear." We and rhe salespeople listened into the night. |
Boa2, outstanding use of rule #22. They'll never see you coming. I can't what to see your #15. For those who don't know and a discussion of their cultural significance. Although not classical, they are somewhat musically relevant, kinda'. |
Again, I apologize for causing a stir with my comment about the Zu peanut gallery. As Warrenh said, it was unfair, and indeed it was. The principal issue here is the condamnation of a product that one has never heard. There is simply no reason for it, and such claims are categorically refuted upon the same grounds by many on this site, including those who have posted here. Most of us would not stand for an apples and oranges comparison of a product if the one referred to is a single iteration old, let alone one you've never heard at all. Upon what basis do you dismiss an unknown, especially when you yourself would defend against such conjecture? The bottom line is a Cornwall is not a Klipschorn, and a stock Klipschorn sounds nothing like a modded one. If you have no experience with the product or process being discussed, then your commentary is inapplicable at best, antagonistic at worst. Again, sorry Warrenh. You're right, my comment was unfair, and I should have made my point in a more diplomatic manner. Finally, thanks for the thread, Allsmiles. Please let us know how your experimentation settles. |
Boa2, I would like to interject, although I hate how distastefull things get with the REAL hi-efficiency crowd.. One I would like to support my above comments about he mcintosh amp being a possible solution vs. the CARVER amp... Okay Carver may work well but mcintosh will work much better and probably eliminate MUCH doubt about the Klipsch ISSUE with Allsmiles system and exact problem that he first explained.. Sunfire sounded great on mine with some Megadeth and fiona apple, both could be rock or hard rock but fell apart with ZERO depth on artists like Zeppelin or the beatles, very 2 Dimensional amps in my Case.. So I still support taking a Shot at a Mcintosh Klipsch combo might surprise you.. Now onto the "Other speaker" in question all of a sudden, well I can tell you MANY of the owners of the other Speakers in question were Originally KLIPSCH owners, growing up with SEVERAL of their horn systems, Myself owning K-Horns being replaced by the others and actually I just gave away my Cornwalls to a friend cause it was not worht the 500 I could sell to ship them.. I believe That experience with Former klipsch owners can be injected here, but we were kinda kicked out of the club when we moved from Hope arkansas to UTAH... But anyway K-Horns will give much a run for its money with a Mcintosh 6900 intergrated, with the added function of the 5 Band EQ I dare you not to make OZZY's WORST thinnest recording not sound good.. Just a suggestion. |
