This is my last word on this subject. Will have to accept
Downloading Format, and accept eventual end of CD Format.
Lost opportunity not to apply more "Caveat Emptor" at
beginning of CD Format. Still weary making same mistake twice of lost opportunity with Downloading Format. Cannot
unring the bell with Downloading Format. No use beating
the issue any further. "No use crying over spilt milk"!
Enough said. Sorry if any feelings were hurt-my apologies! |
Having an RW DVD Disk is acceptable, but having a CD Disk is "BLASPHEMY"-Really? Correct me if I am wrong, but I
believe that you can use either one as a back-up hard disk?
The only difference-one of these you get to skip all of
the Computer Processing/conversion/compression/burning. CD's are also Processed, but that is not enough-you want more Processing/more Conversion. Oh-yeah, you want me to pay twice as much FOR the EXTRA Downloading/Processing/ compression/burning....etc.etc.etc! This is your imaginary Trophy Format to replace the real/tactile CD Format? What
Contest in Hell did I win to have this shoved down my throat? Sleep well at night while I try not to choke!
Computer Audio is still in development, it is NOT ready
for primetime-and you know it! I don't think that it is
crazy to keep CD around UNTILL you decide what the hell you are going to do with Computer Audio-because YOU DON'T KNOW YET!!!-DO YOU? We will keep our CD's till you decide! We reject your proposition of getting rid of our CD's now, and just holding our breath untill you get Computer Audio staightened out! You-are-not-ready, admit it! Some of us
can see the Train Wreck coming from dangerous, premature yanking of CD. There is NO TRANSITION, because you haven't planned one out! So what is exactly your plan for this
Transition- Panic/Mass Hysteria??? Bad Idea, Bad Plan!
Hold on to your CD's if you want to avoid it! Less risk
that way! Shouldn't we plan for our own risk, not let you cavalierly risk us? Don't we have a say in this? |
|
Pettyofficer,
it seems to me that you are worried about the lack of physical backup. May I suggest you use a RW DVD instead of a backup harddisc and sleep soundly? |
The difference is if your Music Files fragment/ Hard Drive+
Back-up crash/ Viruses/ Malware/ Spyware....etc! Erased
or damaged data on fragile Music Files not so Sonically
pleasing. No such joy (SIC!) with physical media like
CD! Your right, I stand corrected! I should pay more for
the joy of the Former instead of the latter! Don't know
what I was thinking. Disposable Music Files better deal
for everyone around. After all, we all have more disposable
income now in todays Economy! Who wants something that lasts longer-NUTS!!! $$$Ka-ching$$$ $$$Ka-ching$$$ |
What we are talking about here, is competing Formats.
CD's (Ripped or Disk) vs. Downloaded Music Files. "Soon
all New Music will only be available via Music Downloads"!
That means CD's (Plus the ability to Rip them) is gone!
You can Rip a CD onto a Music File, and keep the CD as a
physical Back-up to the Music File; but, not anymore if all
new Music is severely strictly limited to Downloading only! You are replacing a physical medium Format (CD) with
a more fragile non-tactile Format in Downloaded Music Files. Even if you believe that there is no sonic difference, having a non-tactile fragile non-physical Music
File Format replace a physical one at additional cost
advantages who??? Not only those seeking better Sonics, but
reasonable reliability in keeping those Sonics longer-I
think not!!! No preparation has been made to make
Computer Audio Downloads reliable enough to replace the
CD, and none is even expected to be done in the near
future. The ability to Burn Music Files doesn't solve this problem-it makes it worse! That which can crash a Hard Drive can certainly crash a Back-up Hard Drive, it happens since they are both the same mechanism. Hold onto CD until Computer Audio Downloads have been developed with sufficient reliability to overcome the drawbacks of their non-physical nature. Instead it is rush/ rush/ hurry/ hurry/ hurry to replace CD Format with underdeveloped premature Downloading Format. This is the first time that we will be exclusively using a non-physical Format. It is not crazy to suggest that we tread cautiously, and not burn our bridges behind us just yet! We will pay for it dearly later on if mistakes are made by being way too premature! Treacherous ground here-keep both Formats!!! |
...and I for one have not been able to detect any difference between a ripped redbook CD and an 16/44.1 download via itunes/puremusic |
Pettyofficer,
what I was talking about was playing ripped CD in AIFF format on my Mach2Music through puremusic memory play upsampled to 176.4 via a Zodiac Gold + Voltikus, compared to playing the CD through my upsampling AudioAero Capitole 24/192 SE. Sorry if the shorthand was too opaque. |
"Redbook format through upsampled memory play"??? We are
talking about REPLACING "Ripping" exclusively with
"Downloading". There will be no Ripping of Redbook Format
if there are no CD's. You call Downloading of MP3/i-Tunes
as Downloading Redbook? What Book are you reading? If CD
doesn't compete sonically, MP3/i-Tunes will? Lossless
compressed downloaded 16/44.1 CD material will sound better
than a non-compressed/non-processed 16/44.1 CD Disk? Isn't
it the same source for both, 16/44.1? So, how exactly does downloading/compressing them "1's" and "0's" improve S.Q.? |
There seems to me to be a bit of a luddite camp on this thread: while CD never managed to compete sonically with Vinyl, the same doesn't apply to digital, even in Redbook format through upsampled memory play. Hence I would encourage everybody to compare their CD players with a properly set up computer and new generation DAC. It' ll put paid to this thread without further ado. BTW, the best result on Vinyl is via digitizing through Purevinyl and I run a Dynavector DV 507, Zyx Universe + Artisan setup! |
You might not have a superior format in itself, but with the right setup, the digital files can and do sound better than the original disc. That is enough for me.
Shakey |
Homework means having adequate Music Selection first,
on the superior sounding Format, and having this prior to
getting rid of the old Format. It was never a question of
getting rid of CD due to SACD since there never was an
adequate Music Selection for SACD to replace CD. Ditto for High Rez. Downloads. 16/44.1 Downloads sound about the same as 16/44.1 CD so what are you left with? Whatever you are trying to replace CD with, you haven't got superior sounding Format together with adequate Music Selection. You have nothing, but smoke and mirrors! You plan to replace CD with an imaginary Format made up of Smoke, and Mirrors? I will pay for it with imaginary dollars-that acceptable? |
.
Anonymoustao, well said.
. |
Transition from LP to CD, not the same as transition from
CD to High Rez. Downloads. Why the difference??? Imagine
a severe cutback on all LP production with only a handful
of CD Music Selection available. Imagine that this was the
case at the start of CD, with all LP Music Selection gone
overnight. There would be a complete vacuum of Selection
from either Format. There would be no Music to listen to.
This didn't happen. Why is it happening now during this
Transition? 16/44.1 CD to 16/44.1 Downloads not a step up,
more like a step sideways. MP3/I-Tunes, Step downwards.
You don't have a Format, with enough Music Selection, that
is a step up from CD. Eliminating CD too early will only
create a vacuum. Many will have to give up their Music-
or step sideways, or step down-Unacceptable! You are not
ready to replace the CD yet, do your homework first! |
No way.I was a 100% vinyl person from 1963 to 1990.I finally caved and bought a cd player that year.Now I have a decent cd collection to go with my lps. and 45s..Many cds. sound really good, especially if mastered properly try Sundazed Beau Brummels.Also many cds have unreleased cuts on them. I remember the death of the lp all too well, still waiting.Both formats will live on for music afficianados.The everyday person will take the easiest route and buy whatever is the latest.The lemming syndrome.Time will tell,there may be a temporary death knell, but watch, once people think they are obsolete, they will become desireable again.Tube gear comes to mind along with vinyl and old cars.And old cars are in no way better performing than new ones,and I have both and like boyh. |
Well said Anonymoustao! My only problem is with those
Downloaders who have this Ultimatum Finality with CD Format! Will it end, yes. Will it end too soon before High
Rez. Downloads have an adequate Music Selection to replace that of CD? We Transform from one Format to the next via
a gradual Music Selection conversion. Why-so people don't lose their Music in the conversion. Regardless if it is
2012 or not, some are really pushing hard for premature end
to CD BEFORE there is adequate High Rez. Download Music
Selection available-leaving many without their Music! |
i think you were flamed because of your username. :)
two things i don't understand about these discussions.
1. the whole "no more cds" after 2012 is a rumor. some nameless execs are cited in a news source most people don't regularly read. it's not like it was in the new york times and the major labels have spoken out with an official statement. as it is, this is more like the reports of the world ending with the mayan calendar in 2012. if the world ends, it is likely that cd production will come to a halt, but this little "news" item strikes me as meaningless.
2. why do people have to "take sides" when it comes to cds and computer files as sources?
if you're like rgs92, with 1000 cds of music that he regularly enjoys listening to and a state of the art cd player, there is no need for him to make computer audio an undertaking, unless he feels like undertaking it and he can do it when and if he feels like it. and if he were to wait 5 years to do so, the technology would have advanced to the point that it would be relatively painless to make any sort of transition.
if you're like me, and have spent more time on computer audio in the past 10 years, why should i upgrade my cd player past a certain point? i might have 500 cds, but they're all ripped into flac and wav files. i have not bought more than a handful of cds in the past 10 years, and most of my new music has been vinyl or digital downloads. of course, the advantage of cds today is that they are inexpensive relative to digital downloads. i just bought two remastered muddy waters cds for $12 on amazon. digital downloads would have cost more, and sacd and vinyl versions would have cost significantly more. i'm satisfied with the cd version, but if i wanted to go over the top, i could purchase the 180g 45rpm or sacd version for $65 to $100.
a number of the manufacturers of equipment seem to be source agnostic and offer the ability to use whatever you want. bryston, linn, naim, esoteric, luxman, etc.
i honestly don't understand all the fuss or the need to proselytize. enjoy your favorite formats. leave others to enjoy theirs. i imagine it's clear to everyone on the forum that audiophiles are a relatively small market for the music industry as a whole and the major labels are going to do what they do to make money and move product. on some of my new vinyl purchases, they offer digital downloads. i've been routinely offered the option of flac files. quality wise, that's fine for me. at my price point of equipment, i don't have any illusions with regard to "absolute sound."
btw, rgs92, coming from an EMM you'll probably need to do a little better than iTunes if you ever decide to get into digital downloads. :) more like jriver or foobar2k on windows and pure music or amarra on mac. |
Devilboy,
The path to progress is strewn with the broken bodies of those intrepid souls who were just a little too ahead of the game :-) |
Funny. I started the same thread a while ago and everybody chastised me. Today, it's ok.....shame on you all. LOL! |
Yeah, I think I'll stick with my EMM before I surrender to the the iTunes tsunami.
(And the spellchecker here capitalized the T in iTunes for me. That probably means it's so embedded in the culture it's the only way to go.) |
guess you're going to be stuck listening to them on that EMM. poor guy. :) |
What am I going to do with my 1000 CDs? |
Phaelon, this doesn't make up for lack of transition between CD and High Rez. Downloads! There is no Music
Selection Overlap here at all. When you change Formats,
Music Selection overlap between them means no-one loses
their Music. There is time inbetween to save your Music,
and adapt/compensate. Ending CD by end of 2012 is like
feeding all Music lovers to the Sharks. They get eaten,
O-kay by you??? Cutting off an Audiophiles ears to spite
his face-accomplishes what towards Music listening? |
"How do you keep the Major Labels honest, and committed to increasing Music
Selection in High Rez. Downloads?
My surmise is that the fixed costs associated with offering a Hi-Rez download are significantly less than those of producing and distributing a CD. Once more audiophiles start investing in computer based front ends, I cant imagine why it wouldnt be profitable for the major labels to offer more Hi-Rez downloads. |
Again, everyone avoids the question. How do you keep the
Major Labels honest, and committed to increasing Music
Selection in High Rez. Downloads? CD's are supposed to be
gone by the end of 2012. How do you make up for the loss in CD Music Selection with a skeleton of Music Selection- in High Rez. Downloads? SHOW ME the Music Selection in
High Rez. Downloads before you do away with CD Music
Selection. If you are switching Formats, they are supposed
to overlap! What are you trying to create ,a vacuum of Music inbetween THIS Transition-WHY? Do we forgo Music? |
Shakey,
No malice intended. The only words I understood from your post was the last line. It may be a chore to read the other posts here, but if you re-read your post and it makes sense to you, then I guess I just don't understand it. Had it not been for your complaint, I would not have made the comment. Don't dwell on it. |
>Back at you!<
And you said this, why?
Shakey |
|
>Just believe that the only leverage
to help incentivise Major Labels actually do continue to increase costly Music selection in High Rez. Downloads, an
alternative Format with huge selection (CD) be used as a wedge<
Wow, your posts are a chore to read sometimes......
Shakey |
Nothing nostalgic here. Just believe that the only leverage
to help incentivise Major Labels actually do continue to increase costly Music selection in High Rez. Downloads, an
alternative Format with huge selection (CD) be used as a wedge. End of 2012, leverage/wedge is gone with selection in High Rez. Downloads in limbo? How do you make sure to keep the Major Labels honest on promises for more Music
Selection in High Rez. Downloads? What....pinky promise?
Really??? |
In this context, what exactly does "left behind" mean? |
Indie labels are doing really elegant things with CD packaging, as are arTEEST types such as Bjork. Her "Family Tree" box is a never-ending source of packaging delight.
CDs are a lot more utilitarian than LPs, but digital music takes the cake in that regard. I don't doubt that it's brilliant. My fundamental issues are technological, and overall selection.
I am a lot less dogmatic about digital than I used to be. Now, I just want the music. |
if it were me, I would have kept the lp format for the packaging at least as an option for those who care and just stuck the CD in that instead of a record. Packaging and overall end user utility took a big hit with CDs. If they would have done this, I bet many who do not like digital would have been converts by now, for whatever that is worth to the music industry (probably not much in the big scheme of things unfortunately). |
I agree with Mapman regarding the lousy packaging of the CD. The saving grace is the still really good sound redbook is capable of providing when mastered well i.e. most jazz recordings. In a high quality system they can sound as good as anything else.
Regards,
Charles |
I want it all and I want it now!!! |
Guess that there are two types of Music Listeners. Those
who want better Sound Quality (who call themselves
Audiophiles), and those who just want pretty packages.
I have got no problem with that! Just don't confuse pretty
packages with better Sound Quality-S.Q. is NOT what you
want! Stop masquerading as something your not (Emperor and
his New Clothes)! Your not fooling anyone! You don't have
a High Rez. Download Format with anywhere near enough selection to replace CD Selection. Means alot of people will have to do without their Music/ New Music-happy? |
"whoever thought that something would make us nostalgic for CDs"
Nothing will make me nostalgic for CDs.
They are what they areand are a fact of life. Part of what they are and have always been is lousy packaging that is nondescript, fragile, small, and hard to read. That's it for me.
Music servers and digital players will continue to evolve to include more and more direct or linked access to more content.
Over time, the amount of information at your fingertips about an album, artist, or song or anything else related will continue to grow and become more user friendly and oriented. That's a major step forward associated with teh technology beyond just sound quality. To me good sound quality plus the entire package is what matters. Most CD packages just plain still s--- even after all these years. |
My point exactly Kevvwill. Only concern is vacuum of
selection in New Music once CD is gone (1 year), and
vacuum of Selection of New Music in High Rez. Downloads.
I sense the same desperation in Selection in High Rez.
Downloads as I did in SACD-how did that work out for us?
Did somebody forget something like providing enough Stock
in High Rez. Downloads before pulling all of the CD Stock?
Are you actually replacing the CD Format with something, or replacing it with Hot Air, MP3, i-Tunes, False promises,
and Snake Oil? You don't have ANY selection yet-too soon! |
Absolutely not. As with vinyl, there are people who prefer the experience and quality (whoever thought that something would make us nostalgic for CDs?) of the format.
I have played with all kinds of computer encoding formats, and no matter what (listening through Grado RS-1/RA-1 combo), it doesn't sound as good. Even lossless, which most people aren't going to use because of the space that a file requires.
This doesn't even take into account the complexities of full musical access. I am a huge fan of Japanoise bands (High Rise, Fushitsusha, Overhang Party, etc.). If I didn't have my CDs and companies that sell them, such as Forced Exposure, I'd be screwed.
I think that the person who said that is in the business of selling the "next big thing," and that's computer audio. I like the idea of it, of having a giant hard drive with your whole music collection on it. I don't like the necessary redundancy, and the fact that your entire collection can be wiped out by a computer failure or hard drive crash. So you have to back it up, then back up the back up the back up the back up.
Or you can have CDs on the shelf. No brainer for me. |
i don't think so. i think the owner of the store is a salesman. nothing moves product like a sense of urgency. :) |
Is the owner of the store an idiot btw? |
Good point on the not finding cd quality downloads. If that should ever break (read: if iTunes ever becomes cd quality 16/44) THEN things will take off like a rocket on the computer music side of things.
That of course assumes most of the people actually care if Apple does that! |
That's funny. It's had the same affect on me...and left me wishing that threads about the death of CD players were dead. |
Thanks to treads like this, Ive started using my CD Player again. Its been powered off for the last few years while I have concentrated on my music server for all digital playback. Ive rediscovered just how much I like my old Esoteric DV-50. Digital hard disc media may on it way out, but not in my room. |
No one will be left behind. |
Slow down and get a grip on the CD Format. Why the Ultimatum? SACD, DVD-Audio, Hi-Rez. DVD Audio, MLP DVD
Audio Multi-Channel, SACD Multi-Channel, all have been
abandoned and replaced with MP3. You are going to end up
adding High Rez. Computer Audio Downloads onto that pile if
you hand off the CD Market to MP3. High Rez. Downloads don't have the selection to remotely compete with MP3. Pulling CD removes last stumbling block to MP3. Everything else with extreme low selection ends up circling the drain.
Bad idea bursting MP3 dam by blowing CD-standby for Flood! |
3o years from now yes. Dead. Behind the times already. TT still ahead. |
|
Back in the 80's I couldn't afford a Nakamichi cassette deck. Now I have three of their best models. It's amazing what a few decades can do! I hope CD players die. When they do, I'll pick up that dcs Scarlatti for $10 at the
Goodwill store. Maybe I'll get an Accuphase too...yeah,
that's right, an Accuphase and a Wadia-maybe two each! |
Not trying to scare anyone. Just think that in your zeal to
put Ultimatum on CD Format, not stopping to think of
possible consequences. History shows the switching of Formats overlapping. This will be the first of deliberately creating a vacuum between the end of one Format, and the lack of the beginning of the next (certainly in area of Music selection). Don't know what the
hell is going to happen. Maybe you should be afraid of only
Format left for your New Music ends up being MP3! People are gonna go where the Music selection is-verrry risky! |
