Old thread, but if you’re considering the S3, it’s excellent. I loved my MHDT Labs Orchid, but the S3 was a big step up, more detail, lots of body, better imaging and soundstage, but very "musical". Nothing "clinical" about it. |
I agree with grannyring as I have owned both versions of the La Voce. The S3 upgrade is worth every penny. If you haven't read Dave Abramson's review of the S3 as opposed to the S2 and the PSA Directstream after he got his back from the upgrade. |
Neither of the versions sound clinical etc…. both are superbly musical and never even verge on the side of analytical, thin and hyper detailed. The newer version is just more real sounding and not as murky. |
Hey guys how does Aqua S3 compare to Holo Spring 3 level 1 or 2 and Pontus II. If anyone has compared them? |
@relak, grannyring:
"False concept"?
I've heard DACS that are more akin to microscopes--to my ears, they so accentuate awareness of the parts that a larger sense of coherence is sacrificed. I demo'd a COS DAC that I can only describe as drastic in this regard. I do not think this is necessarily due to "distortions and artifacts" but a result of some designer's preference for prioritzing resolution.
It's been my experience that some audiophiles strongly gravitate towards a hyper-detailed presentation. Personally, I find this clinical rather than musical. Some favor the opposite extreme, most often utililizing tube gear (and yes, I realize all tube gear is not excessively euphonic) and others preferences are located somewhere in the middle ground.
"Timing and rhythm" ?
As far as PRaT goes with the S2, I have no complaints-- it keeps my toes tapping and my fingers drumming.
"Nebulous"/"dark and murky"?
I suggest this is fairly subjective. What's just right for you in terms of resolution is probably too much for me. I've discovered copper IC's do result in less clarity than I prefer, so I use silver. While you might describe my system as "nebulous", according to your tastes, it doesn't sound that way to me.
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@stuartk
Sacrificing musicality for the sake of detail is a false concept. What kills "musicality" is distortions and artefacts that some users take for extra details. A natural, coherent sound with better resolution and sharper focus on timing and rhythm is always more "musical", and that is exactly what S3 will give you compared to more nebulous S2. |
The S3 is much better than the S2 actually. It is still very musical, and while maintaining the wonderful mids and body the S3 is far more open and nuanced. The S2 sounds dark and murky in comparison. My 2 cents. |
Very helpful thread. I'd thought about upgrading my La Voce S2 to S3 but
sacrificing musicality for the sake of detail is not a risk I'm willing to take. Based on comments, here, I'm keeping my S2 stock. Thanks to everyone who described their experiences, here. |
@biketony
Thanks, be interested in your experience if you try a different brand of tubes
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The pair of specially selected ECC81 tubes GENALEX Gold Lion, (which is a recent change)
also new capacitors of power supply, resistors of analog boards and use new special solder alloy. |
@ biketony
What tube(s) including brand are in the La Scala?
Txs
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Picked up my Aqua La Scala mk2 optologic yesterday. My local audio shop here in Michigan let me use a Aqua la Voce mk3 while waiting for the La Scala to come in. I had it in my system for over a month.
‘Let me first say that the La Voce mk3 was a great DAC. And until I got the la Scala mk2 optologic in the house, I would have been satisfied with the la voce.
‘But the La Scala is really something special.
I have duel rel s/3 sho’s subs And focal Sopra 2. From first plugging the La Scala in, it felt like the subs had been turned up. It took a few minutes before I realized that the bass was much more, but also much more defined. Defined but warm at the same time.
Also very nice openness.
my system:
audio research gsi75 intergraded amp
innuos zenith mk3
focal sopra 2
Rel s/3 sho x 2
Kubala Sosna interconnects and speaker cables
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@kzs70. I just saw your post. I find the Orchid every bit as good
as the Romulus. Not quite as detailed and resolved, but the Orchid
offers better tone, dimension and naturalness.
Thanks for the answer! |
@facten
You will be glad you did as it just keeps getting better especially on the top end. |
@jackd
Thanks for the insight, I'll happily wait that long given what I have heard thus far. Very happy with the purchase
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@facten
If my recent experience is any indicator then it is going to take a lot more than 200 hours for full break-in. Mine just took closer to 500 hours before fully opening up. In the end it doesn't have a whole lot in common anymore with the S2 other than the case and the power supplies at least those were my findings. |
I presently have the LaVoce S3 coupled with an IPOD Classic (wav recordings) and Wadia 171, Line Magnetic 518IA 845tube based integrated; Daedalus Audio Argos V2s speakers; digital and analog ICs are Silnote Audio; power cables are Audio Art Cable. ( I haven't used either my Modwright LS100 KWA100SE pre/power combo, or Finale Audio 7189 MK2 integrated with the La Voce yet. I did use it initially with my Cambridge CXC transport and they synced well).
I only have 20-25 hours or so on the LaVoce S3, my understanding is that it takes about 200 hours for full break-in , but below are my initial impressions which are based upon a variety of genres/tracks I listened to this morning:
Old school R&B: Chaka Khan - Ain't Nobody Billy Stewart - I Do Love You
Soft Rock: Beach Boys - Warmth of the Sun; In My Room
Rock: The Who - Eminence Front; The Song is Over
; Getting In Tune; Won't Get Fooled Again
Metallica - Enter Sandman; Where Ever I May Roam
Led Zeppelin - Whole Lot of Love Phil Collins - In the Air Tonight
Alternative Rock: Haircut 100 - Boy Meets Girl
Blues Rock: Alvin Lee - Lost In Love; Help Me
Smooth Jazz: Marcus Anderson - Enigma Pieces of a Dream - I Fell Like Singing Maysa & Club 1600 - Give Love A Chance Boney James - Ride Greg Karukas - Time Could Pass
Hip Hop: Nelly - Hot In Here
Thus far, to my ears this is a very balanced DAC, its sound is not pronounced in any area, rather it is articulate across the board , and non-fatiguing. I don't notice any lack of bass that according to others the S2 apparently had. The S3 has a broad soundstage with clear separation , placement and depth; the pace, rhythm, subtleties, energy, slam and dynamics of tracks are all evident; notes decay; male and female vocals are equally engaging. I'd say that, while my Modwright Elyse is a very musical and enjoyable DAC, the LaVoce S3 sounstage offers somewhat more separation and placement of instruments. I have no experience with the Orchid so I can not comment between the two.
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@kzs70. I just saw your post. I find the Orchid every bit as good as the Romulus. Not quite as detailed and resolved, but the Orchid offers better tone, dimension and naturalness. |
Fasten, looking forward to your review and thoughts of the La Voce S3 |
I ordered a La Voce S3 a few weeks ago and it was delivered today. I did not audition it before ordering ,and had no prior experience with Aqua DACs to base a purchase off of. I hooked it up in my main system , pulling my Modwright Elyse out for the time being. I only have 5 or 6 hours on the La Voce S3 so I won't comment at this juncture other than to say that it is very nice sounding even with limited break-in.
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All great points! Well said. |
@grannyring I'm glad that you've put the flat stacked copper foil caps to use. That's much better than having the caps sit in a cabinet which is why I sold them. I wanted someone else to enjoy them. Mission accomplished!
The MHDT DACs are excellent once the output coupling caps are upgraded. The OEM caps are as light as a feather and tremendously hinder sound quality. I was blown away at how good the Pagoda sounds with a pair of 1uf Jupiter HT caps. The detail of the Pagoda and the musicality of the Jupiter caps are a perfect combination.
I had my eye on the S2 and S3 when I was in the market for a DAC. Although I could've easily upgraded the cheap WIMA style output caps, there we're two things that kept me from purchasing an Aqua DAC: the lack of a tube buffer and the abundance of basic components in the circuitry that cannot warrant the high price of a new unit.
What I like about the Aqua DACs is that their cases are elegant and that they employ a decent amount of high quality diodes / voltage regulators in the TO-220 package. |
The S2 has a cap on the output. The S3 should also based on what I have read. The Orchid, as you know, also has an output cap, but it is a better sounding unit than the S2. With a few upgrades I am confident you would love the Orchid. |
@grannyring, is the Aqua S2/S3 capacitor coupled on the output. I am interested in this DAC but in general I am looking for a DAC with direct coupled outputs.
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@grannyring MHDT Orchid bests the Aqua La Voce S2 in my system If I am not mistaken you had an Aesthetix Romulus or Pandora before. How would you rate these 2 DAC’s compared to the Romulus? I am testing the Romulus (standard) right now but would like to try other and cheaper options as well before pulling the trigger.... |
One final post on my work today. I installed some very nice flat stacked 2.2uf Jupiter copper foil in wax caps on the outputs of the Orchid that were already broken in. Oh my, another nice jump in performance across the board. Keeping this baby! |
Well after full break in and an upgraded Western Electric Tube the MHDT Orchid bests the Aqua La Voce S2 in my system. The Orchid offers improved bass, pace, dynamics, intimacy, resolution and also has all the warmth and midrange bloom of the S2. The stage size is now on par with the S2 also.
Now I am left with the decision to jump to the S3 or stay with the Orchid. The S3 is said to be better in the same ways the Orchid is better. Is the S3 better sounding than the Orchid? Don’t know and have to spend lots more money to find out.
The Orchid can be upgraded by good DIY folks with better output caps etc...
We will see. |
I agree with you on these points and do fully understand. |
Grannyring, you miss our point. The point is that a product like the Aqua or other dacs that are modular and are hardware upgradable represent a purchase once and done scenario.
The older Aqua S2 sounds good, the S3 version sounds far better, the case of a Dac like the Aqua is that even if it is $1,700 to upgrade the dac, it is far cheaper than selling the dac getting one half to one thirds its resale price, and reinvesting for far more money with other platforms.
As per losing the dac for a couple of weeks most Aqua dealers can rebuild a dac in a less than an hour the only thing that can take more time is loading the new firmware.
The latest upgrade to the Forumla requires swapping out one board it takes 5 mins.
Please understand the Aqua line is just one choice out of a myriad of choices the coolest thing about the dac is aside from its sound quality is the fact that Christian Angeneli is always working to improve his product and with an Aqua the owner's long term value is protected and the product can continue to develop as new technlogies are implimented into the platform.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Aqua Dealers |
Yes the S3 sounds better and we agree. I will post my results regardless of your agenda. The upgrade to the S3 costs hundreds more than the cost of a new Orchid. Then there are the shipping costs and not having your dac for a couple of weeks. We Agoners often buy used gear so the comparison is just dandy!
I may well end up liking the S2 more than the Orchid. The S2 is not old enough to be considered obsolete if the owner can’t or won’t afford” the S3. I sure hope not. Reviewers were singing its praise just 3 years ago. |
The reality of this comparision is questionable, Grannyring is comparing an out of date Aqua not an S3 the newer S3 sounds very different in terms of improving the overall sound quality of the dac while still keeping the tonality and soundstaging very similar.
The point we were trying to make is that the Aqua dac is aninvestment grade dac which can continue to improve, where the MDT is stuck in time and will become obsolete while the Aqua can continue to improve.
Why don't you upgrade your S2 and then do the comparison?
If you read any of the reviews on the S3 they are all raves, the S2 did have a bit of excessive midrange color which although was very nice obscured detail.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Aqua dealers
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@grannyring
Thanks for your initial impressions, look forward to your further impressions on the weekend
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@facten
I did an initial comparison between a fully broken in Aqua La Voce S2 with upgraded current usb input board and the MHDT Orchid with 2 hours of playing time. Both dacs are fantastic. I will give a more complete comparison this weekend after the Orchid breaks in more fully. Very close call as to which one is a keeper after the first listen. Very close. The La Voce throws a bigger stage with the Orchid better than the La Voce in most other areas at this point. The Orchid sounds more nuanced with better focus and inner detail resolution. The Orchid has faster and more articulate bass. The La Voce is warmer while the Orchid is smoother especially on hot female voices. The La Voce midrange is a tad more full at this point.
I am a sucker for a large stage and thus far the La Voce has that in spades! If the Orchid opens up more during break in, then it will be the easy choice as it excels in many sonic areas.
My system...
Dali Epicon 6 speakers with greatly upgraded crossover
Clayton Audio Class A amplifier
Innuos Zen lll
sotm switch and their top of the line Ethernet cabling
BPT power conditioner |
It is not silly to compare the MHDT Orchid to the S2. Not sure why you would say that as it is simply not true. We will see which dac is best in my system. I am sure you know the Orchid has many professional and user reviews stating it bested other dacs costing more than the La Voce S2. It would be nice and very professional of you to try and open your mind beyond the small boundary lines of the products you sell. It would bolster your credibility even more, I think you are credible, as a dealer posting here on the Gon. Just a suggestion. It’s a great big audio world out there with many wonderful options beyond what you sell. It is even possible some of these options cost far less and sound as good in many ways. Right? Yes, this is possible. This is not only possible, but very likely. I like the Aqua line and they certainly are among the group of great sounding dacs to consider.
I did not say that Aqua should use Duelund output caps because I understand the realities of manufacturing costs as I am also a builder and seller in this industry. I did say the position of this part is very important and a key place to be extravagant. I do think they could have used a nicer cap costing some $20 like MHDT did. Plenty of good choices here. I will be extravagant and use the Duelund cap on the output of the winning dac.
Yes using the Duelund tinned copper CAST cap is guaranteed to lift the sonic performance of this dac tremendously. No doubt in this particular position and with the nature of the Duelund cap. I have executed too many upgrades on gear over the years to think this one is a guessing game. This one is not.
Anyway, I will honestly report back with a detailed comparison of the S2 vs the Orchid. The sound quality is all that matters here, not just the internal layout and design of the unit. Plenty of well laid out, modular constructed HiFi pieces have been bested sonically by more simplified and well executed alternatives. No single build style always yields better sonic results. |
Grannyring most people want increased resolution while still keeping a degree of musicality.
The fact that you are comparing the La Voice to the MDT is kind of silly these are two very different dacs.
The build quality of the MDT is comunsurate with its much lower price point. The Aqua S2 to S3 upgrade is hardly over priced as many of the boards are changed and you are essentially rebuilding the product to move from S2 to S3.
The very fact that you can take an older dac the S2 and convert it to the lastest from the company means that a prospective buyer can get off the dac merry go round which is necessasitated by companies making non upgradable platforms.
So yes the Aqua dac is not a cheapier Chinese made non upgradable dac and you are paying for the dac’s superior construction and modularity, there is a strong likelyhood that the Aqua Dac owner has kept the same dac for many years or will keep the dac fro many years, as the dac can always be made current, the MDT will be relegated to the dust bin of history as a newer dac of the month from China will continue to gain users looking for a good sounding product at a much lower price point.
As per swapping a $100 to $400 dollar cap nobody is using a $400 cost cap in a $4k dac, you won’t find that cost cap in a $7k dac either, the reason is simple economics a $4kish dac must cost close to $1,000.00 to manufacturer, with any supply chain each leg of the chain adds cost and increases the final price to the consumer.
Most companies today believe in having a dealer base to enable prospective customers to be able to demo and receive proper service, this is much harder for a non USA based company hence the tried and trued dealer to consumer model works well and costs of manufactuer have to be balanced, the other thing is just because you put in a really expensive cap doesn’t necessarily mean you will get the benefit of a radically much more expensive part in that circuit.
We would agree with you that changing that one cap may make a huge difference we are just saying that it isn’t guaranteed.
Christian Angnelli of Aqua is a very talented engineer if you look at their parts specified they are using some very trick parts allready.
Just food for thought.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Aqua Hifi dealers |
I will compare before cap upgrade and report back! |
@grannyring
When will you be comparing the 2 DACs, and will you provide your impressions back on this thread, or create another?
Will you be doing the cap swap, and if so before or after you compare the 2 DACs?
Thanks
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Have an S2 here, as you know, and will compare to the $1100 MHDT Orchid. That will be interesting. If the S2 is warmer and more tolerant of poor recordings vs the S3, then it might be the better dac to some. I like resolution to a point. I think too much detail kills enjoyment and musicality in many pieces of high end gear today.
I also see the $2 caps on the output of the S2 and am confident replacing these with some Duelund or Miflex copper foil caps for $100-$400 will get you more of everything including resolution and inner detail.....without becoming too detailed. These caps pass the full signal to the outputs and play a huge role sonically. This is NOT a place to skimp. No, this is a place to be extravagant! This may well be the best upgrade one could do for the money on this unit.
$1700 is a lot of money to upgrade to the S3. Yes it’s great you can do it, but it comes at a pretty high cost.
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The La Scala is a unique beast in the Aqua line up. It is the only one of their three dacs to use tubes in the output stage.
The La Scala does throw a bigger soundstage than the La Voice series and the midrange is a bit warmer and fuller. If someone is looking for a very analog like presentation the La Scala is the better dac.
With that being said the La Voice Mk III reperesents the newer more balanced Aqua sound.
The La Voice hits a beautiful balance of having a touch of midrange warmth, a very big sound stage and a very organic flowing presentation.
THe newer MK III versions of the La Voice helps rebalance the presentation from being overaly warm and masking a bit of detail.
One of the strongest endorsements we can give is the fact that Aqua is a product you can purchase one time and be done.
There are very few manufacturers that build a product like Aqua does, most dacs are built on one to three boards, usually a power supply, a main board and a streaming board or digital input board. to upgrade you usually have to replace the main board or trade in to the newer platform.
Open up an Aqua dac and you will usually see, 8-12 separate boards every part of the dac is compartmenanized into a discrete board, power supply, analog board, digital processing, filtering, digital input etc.
We know of very few companies which offer continuous and affordable upgrades to their platforms via both FPGA and hardware upgrades.
So if you prefer a very organic dac with good resolution, superb build qualityand an ever morphing upgradable design, look to Aqua to be a once for lifetime digital purchase.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Aqua Hifi dealers
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Same here and my assessment of the differences is the same.Takes a really long time to break-in even for the upgrade but a great DAC when it does. |
I have not compared to la Scala Optologic but I had the S2 and upgraded to the S3 last year. To my ear, it's a very noticable overall improvement in terms of level of transparent and music dynamic. However, I felt that between the S2 & S3, they are also somewhat "different" sounding. S2 is more laid-back and warmer sounding DAC while S3 is a cleaner (compartively speaking) with more details and punch DAC. Overall, I'm loving my S3. |
