Anyone with a high-end home theater sans sub?

i have a 4.0 system using gershman acoustics avant garde rx-20 in the front and mirage frx-r for rears. however, i wouldn't totally classify it as a high-end home theater. it's a high-end two channel system with a mid-fi home theater around it (denon avr-3805, dvd-5900, mirage frx-r, sony vpl-hs3 projector). the gershman's go deep enough that i don't really want for a sub.

Without a subwoofer for LFE, it's just loud TV.

If you were watching sitcoms and sports it would be acceptable, but for movies a sub is a must. In fact, ROTS is out tomorrow and I can't wait to watch it and hear it - with the sub.

I have a Meridian Reference 800v4 and 861 v4 with 5.0 full range DSP 5200 and there is clearly no need for a sub. It slams and crunches with bass.

Adidadi - the Meridians are nice speakers. They cover nearly all frequencies you'd find in most music (excluding techno and similar genres), and they have very good mid-bass slam.

For action/adventure/epic movies, you are missing out on a substantial amount of low-frequency information.

I used to own Aerial 10ts and a Meridian processor.(One dynamic combo this is.)It depends on your room and what you are comparing your bass to.--?? The high end store that tries to deafen you with multiple subs?? Is that what you like??--You in the end get to decide,but Aerials and Meridian make lots of bass. I now run Sophia's for the fronts and have more bass than I need.---Your needs may be different--- BUT, trust me it's still HT w/o a sub;and especially with full range speakers that go down into the 20's.(or near that).

It would be worth borrowing a sub to see what if any difference exists.

Yeah, you defintely need powered sub(s) to help that sytem respond like the soundtracks were designed, that's all. If you like what you hear, then it's all good. However, you are indeed missing the full impact of what's intended...nothing more, nothing less.
To say what you have is better or worse, is subjective. But the companies mixing your soundtracks would definitely agree you don't have it set up right.

You can't make a blanket statement like "All home theater needs a sub." My main speakers are Meridian DSP8000s and there is absolutely no need for a sub - they are flat to 18 Hz in my room, up to 118 dB (God forbid). My Meridian 568.2 is programmed to send all frequencies below my crossover setting to them and, believe me, it's high-end home theater.

Rex,
As John points out about his DSP8000's, I used to have these 8000's in my theatre and swapped them out for what I have now. When you have these speakers; there is NO need for a sub. They are full range. My system now is even more dynamic and bass accurate then when I had the 8000's in my room, because they were over powering. I have had a Revel sub in my system and as good as it was, with my current 5 channle full range set up, I do not miss a thing.

Like a hitchhikers night out here!

I have some of the processing some of the meridian owners here have, plus a pair of Sophias, which have all the bass I need for music, however much like a listening session I did with a pair of excellently set up DSP 7000 (one drop down from 8000) the bass was good enough but not heavy enough to carry a lot of the LFE I seem to get in the action movies I watch.

I know Adidadi has a smallish room so his 5200s can make great use of it and pressurise it. I guess it depends on your room - and your taste.

Do bear in mind that the DSP 7000's have 1/3 the number of woofers as the DSP8000s - quite a difference.

First of all johnmcelfresh, your Meridian DSP8000's HAVE POWERED SUBS BUILT INTO THE SPEAKER! (what, like 6 8" ACTIVE woofers?). Essentially (no, correction, DEFINITELY!) your speakers are high end active minimonitors sitting on a powered bass module! So, dude?...I hate to tell ya, but you have some subs in your system! Just as the Infinity Prelude MTS and NHT modular series speakers are towers sitting on bass modules, so are the Meridian 8000's. So,your speakers are no different!

However, that said your speakers (subs!!) don't put out 118db at 18hz, I garantee it! Infact,they won't do 118db anywhere near down that low! 118db is an average of the speakers frequency response, probably around 1k! I'd bet you money your speakers won't do 118db bellow 30hz!!!

I ran a pair of Infinity Kappa 9 speakers in a home theater setup. The room was 22 ft by 70 ft. No sub was needed. The Kappas have two 12" woofers per tower. A subwoofer would have been overkill.

No way the Meridian will do 118 db at 18Hz. I could do that with my old system but it had 32 12" woofers. I ran that for quite some time and still miss my old speakers (Infinity IRS V mains, IRS Betas for surrounds and IRS Gamma for a center channel) but it is a rare system that doesn't need a sub.

Certainly there are more people who think they don't need a sub than ones who actually don't need a sub.

yeah, what Mrpoindexter said...

I don't suppose adding a sub in my small room would even generate clean signals that low beecause the room is too small for those frequencies to form correctly, am I right? That is why in my room; 5 full range 5200's sounds better then when I had only 3 full range (8000's and 5500hc) up front. If I have crunching bass now, I worry that a sub will just muddle things up.

If your system main speakers are measurably flat to 20hz, then what is the point of the sub?

What is the best way to test how low the system can go to using an spl meter?

Flrnlamb,
As you point out, the DSP8000s (like most full-range speakers) include separate drivers for various frequency ranges. If your implication is that any speaker that includes drivers that play the lowest octave automatically include a "subwoofer", then this discussion is moot. However, Quicke's initial post questioned the need for a separate subwoofer (not just full-range speakers) - note his reference to a "7.0" configuration.

For the record, I don't know how loud the DSP8000's will play an 18Hz tone, but they are measurably flat down to 18Hz for as loud as I can stand in my room, so they work for me. My previous post may have incorrectly implied 118dB at a single frequency. They are specified as within 3dB from 20Hz to over 20kHz. Maximum output >118dB spl @ 1m on music material (presumably a combination of freqencies). Honestly, I'll never be able to test them at that level.

No self-respecting HT afficianado would have a theater without a sub. :)

JOHNMCELFRESH, there is a VAST DIFFERENCE between full range speakers with large woofers, that play down to or bellow 20hz(+/-3db or better), and ACTIVE POWERED WOOFERS!!!...make no mistake! The control and power deliver, and thus efficiency of a woofer that's ACTIVE(meaning the amplifier is coupled dirrectly to the woofer, AFTER THE CROSSOVER,as opposed to the amp being INFRONT of the crossover, as in any passive full range typical speakers setup) is FAR SUPPERIOR and MORE POTENT than a typical passive arrangement, yes! (all things equal).
So, no I'm not implying anything remotely similar to what you are pressuming I stated! You're listening to me, but you're not hearing me.
So hear this...Bass is the single most demanding and difficult thing for speakers and amplifiers to reproduce and thus control! Ative, especially highly efficient woofer designs need control and high damping factors to properly due justice to demanding bass frequencies. IT's not like moving a tiny tweeter a few thousands of an inch!
And the only way to properly control a large bass driver, or even smaller one's, with impact, extension, speed, authority, and weight, even percision, is to get as much control of the woofer as possible. And that's best done by putting the amplifier dirrectly to the driver(s). There are other factors to be sure. But this is critically more efficient than running the passive route, like most full range speaker configurations...you just lose too much going through the passive crossover. That's exactly why crossing over higher in a passive setup, to active powered subs for movies is much more efficient and dynamic of a pressentation overall. (THX's implementation). Passive speakers need help.
So, no, I mean nothing of the sort Johnmcelfresh.
Infact, take a pair of Def Tech BPtowers, with active subs, and run em agains't a pair of, similarly sized(woofered as well) Paradims or B&W's, and play some movies or heavy bass demanding music full range through em. You'll immediately notice the power,extension, dynamic effortlesness and lack of distortion with the acitive woofer designed Def Tech's!!!
We're easily talking a 200% improvement in power and potency in the bass dynamics and weight,easily! Infact, it's not even close. You can fill a LARGE ROOM with powerful awe inspiring bass response with the better Def Tech's. While the others, and similar I mentioned, need you to definitely add some powered subs.
Same goes with Designs like the Infinity Prelude MT's, NHT VT powered sub towers, Old Polk RT2000's, and even, yes, Meridian 8000's!
Speaker desings that start to approach this in passive designs, are very highly efficient larger Klipsch speakers. Still, getting an active sub setup surpasses these easily in bass authority.
Also, very efficient "transmission line" desings, like PMC and Def Tech(at lest they used to), grealy helps the bass response. Still, you take better more efficient designs, and add "active control" to the setup, and it's still a huge advantage!
Any quesions?

Audiophiles and enthuiests alike will tinker, plot and plan HT systems around their full range two channel systems to no end! They'll even go "sans" the processor, do processing for DD/DTS in their dvd player, out of the analog out's of the dvd, into their high end CAT preamps and such, and expect it will get no better! Yeah, sorry, that ain't even remotely the case!

Flrnlamb,

Do you always communicate so condescendingly? You might have considered that someone who has invested the kind of time and money in audio as I have (over the past 25 years) MAY have done a bit of research. In fact, my DSP8000s are not the first active speakers I have owned. I am quite familiar with the advantages of active speakers - that's why I own them.

As I mentioned, the original poster in this thread seemed to be referring to seperate subwoofers (hence the comment about 7.0 configuration).

Your definition of subwoofers as active bass speakers (integrated or seperate from main speakers) is arbitrary and incorrect. There are a number of passive subwoofers available today, though I'll grant that active subs are more common. The passive ones are no less subwoofers, however.

I'd wager that the folks who own 1000W Boulder amps and Wilson Alexandria speakers would challenge your assertion that passive full-range speakers are incapable of handling home theater without additional subwoofers, powered or not.

I realize that this is an extreme example, but the subject of this thread is "Anyone with a high-end home theater sans sub?" and the post begins "Is anyone else out there enjoying a high-end home theater without the contributions of a subwoofer, e.g. 7.0?". Since the writer specifically asked about high end, it is reasonable to answer "yes".

Home theater is all about subs! More than one if possible.
Todays DVD's audio sound tracks are really focused on LFE
freqs.

Johnmcelfresh, If I was sounding condescending, it was because you started putting words in my mouth, and were missenterpreting what I was saying!!!
HOwever, your 25 years of owning a turn table and a pair of speaker, plus some Stereophile mag's on the coffee table, don't tell me anthing!...nor do I care!
Show me your accomplished track record of custom theaters and I'll be impressed..I've worked on hundreds, plus $1million dollar installations, for large clients! I've been trained by the best in the biz, consult on setting these things up for a living, yada, yada...so you can discredite me all you like. I can put together world class systems. When you even setup "one speaker" properly in your room, come talk to me. If so,TEll me your proceedure? Let's see what you know. Then you can tell me how it should be done.
Till that time THIS GUY IS REFERING TO "ACTIVE SUBWOOFERS"! I hate to inform you. He might not has specified, but he's infering "powered subs", not some passive boxed woofer-weirdness...lol.
And, BTW, most separates sub modules, sans the amp and crossover, are really active subs anyway!...the gear is just outside the box, that's all..same thing.
Still, to reiterate, YES, EVEN A PAIR OF OLD DEFINITIVE BP2000'S WITH 15" 1000WATT ACTIVE AMPS DRIVING THE BASS, WILL STOMP ANY WILSON GRAND SLAM, JM LABS UTOPIA FULL RANGE, or anything else you can think of that's passive, even being driven by, YES, Bolder 1000watt monos!!!!!...graantee it, every time!! How do I know?
Because, I've been there, heard that, tried that, installed/set up that, and it's not as good! It's called LEVERAGE AND EFFICIENCY! AGain, passive crossovers suck engergy, limit control over bass woofers, and don't offer even remotely the kind of control that "dirrect coupling" does!
So you can skirt around with semantics all you want! Active subs are what people need to do this right!
They can rinky-dink around with their full range setup. But it's not as good, setup properly.
Go sell THX and Lucas Film your BS! They'll tell you the same.
So, yep, I'm sure some bum under the overpass has some tv stereo speakers sitting in a shopping cart, who swears he's got a THX sound from a console television....that doesn't mean it's truth for the masses.

Flrnlamb,

Did you used to post under the "Exertfluffer" handle in the past? Your post sounds a lot like him..? just curious. JZ.

Flrnlamb,

Chill out, dude! I wasn't trying to discredit you. I was simply trying to point out that the original post asked if ANYONE was enjoying HIGH-END home theater without a SEPERATE sub.

Though an active, separate subwoofer are the most common and most efficient means of accomplishing the task, they are not the only way. So the answer to his question is still "yes".

Exert-who? Fluffer? No, I've never done gay-porn, nor do I care to, thank you.

Without a doubt, you can have a high-end home theater without a sub. The point of home theater (for me) is to enjoy the MUSIC in movies. I used to have a pair of bottlehead straight-8s hooked up to 5WPC SETs and watched many movies with friends on this setup. Movie soundtracks were OUTSTANDING and "high-end" in every way. Like any other system, there are trade-offs and comprimises that you will have to choose. An HT system without subs certainly can still be high-end. Too much bass is way more annoying than bass that's not quite as dynamic as it could be with active subs.

Flrnlamb -
No, not talking about gay porn here, please don't take offense at my question. Just wondering because there were a couple of very lively and informative threads on the 'Gon several months ago regarding proper bass management for home theater and "Exertfluffer" had lots to say on the subject.

The info/opinions and style of the writing by that author is very similar to your posts here. For example, check out a thread started on 12/31/04 titled "Too many speakers for theater?". The response from Exertfluffer on 1/02/05 sounds almost exactly like your posts above. Just wondering if you had changed your Audiogon handle.. no big deal.. and if that wasn't you, the coincidence is very interesting. JZ

Huh?...who dat?...who der?...dat you mama???
Sorry, wrong person.

Flrnlamb said: "YES, EVEN A PAIR OF OLD DEFINITIVE BP2000'S WITH 15" 1000WATT ACTIVE AMPS DRIVING THE BASS, WILL STOMP ANY WILSON GRAND SLAM, JM LABS UTOPIA FULL RANGE, or anything else you can think of that's passive, even being driven by, YES, Bolder 1000watt monos!!!!!...graantee it, every time!!"

Nothing could be further from the truth. The active subwoofer section of a Definitive BP-anything is not capable of high-end bass reproduction any more than Flrnlamb is capable of writing a respectful, modest, or believable description of his own knowledge on the subject.

Most powered subwoofers like the Definitive (and actually 99% of powered subwoofers) are incapable of the kind of accuracy, control, lack of boom or overhang, and integration that defines high-end sound. I would argue that systems which contain state-of-the-art amplification driving very accurate full range speakers are far superior in every qualitative way to all but the very rarest few powered woofers. By telling your surround unit to route the LFE information to the much more accurate main front channels, which are in turn being driven by a far superior amplifier, the result his high-end bass.

The vast majority of active subwoofers can, when dialed up to exagerated levels, provide much more bass quantity, but very poor bass quality.

Well, another "arm-chair quarterback" audiopile has spoken here! I respect your input Waldner123, but Lucas film, THX and anyone who's built high end custom theaters will dissagree with you!
BTW, (and I already know the answer), since this topic is about "high end theaters", how many high end custom HT's have you do professionally, or otherwise?
Oh wait!...No need to answer...I already know the answer. And so does everyone here listning!...lol

"Nothing could be further from the truth. The active subwoofer section of a Definitive BP-anything is not capable of high-end bass reproduction..." (Waldner123)

"Most powered subwoofers like the Definitive (and actually 99% of powered subwoofers) are incapable of the kind of accuracy, control, lack of boom or overhang, and integration that defines high-end sound. I would argue that systems which contain state-of-the-art amplification driving very accurate full range speakers are far superior in every qualitative way to all but the very rarest few powered woofers. By telling your surround unit to route the LFE information to the much more accurate main front channels, which are in turn being driven by a far superior amplifier, the result his high-end bass."(Walnder123)

"Folks FOR A HIGH END HOME THEATE, what Waldner said, is WAY OFF BASE!!
I've sold Wilson's right off the floor for a living, and have driven Wilson WATT PUPPIES with the likes of Pass Labs X1000's, Krell FPB 600's, Theta Dreadnaughts (400w/ch), $30K NERO Mono's, and more!!!! What Waldner123 is stating is WRONG WRONG WRONG! We're talking about movie playback capability here, not typical music bass output!...HUGE DIFFERENCE! There's WORLD OF DIFFERENCE between the dynamic output of DD/DTS and 16/44 digital music or analog!!! DD/DTS is about 5x's more potent and demanding in the bass than most any music content!
Yes, your audiophile speakes like Wilson Grand Slams, JM Utopias, etc, have tighly tuned "high Q" bass response,which "holds together for modest music dubties", granted But that all goes right out the window when dynamic movie material hits em!!! passive crossovers just suck the control right out of the drivers, they bottom out, distort, get blown, flatten, and just plain fall apart!! Been there, done that...It doesn't work.
If you listen at a "flee's volume", and don't mind dynamicially constrained and "untransparent" sound from your bass on movies, PLEASE run your Wilson's and others full range for movies!.
And while a Powered bass speaker like the Deftech 2000's I menitioned might rate a 9/10 for bass speed and acuracy through out, and the Wilson's get a 10/10, the fact is the Wilson's will fall apart and get a 4/10 for THX playback full range bass info, and the DEFTECH'S get a 10/10 here!!!
Audiophiles who've done 2 channel for a million years will argue this point to no end!...but then they don't do HT for a living. They tinker with tubes and turntables. Who you gunna believe?
Yes, a good powered commercial subwoofer (Paradigm Servo 15, M&K MX5000, Rel B15, etc) needs to be properly integrated, placed, phased, level matched, calibrated, EQ'd, whatever to work right. But that's still far more ultimately effective for handling movie bass than the passively controlled,relatively inefficient woofer config in a full range audiophile speaker!!!
yeah, they sound fast for dynamically limited music material, but that's about it. And even at that, try rap, techo, hard rock, heavy metal, dynamic "world beat" music, etc through some Wilson WATTPUPPIES or JM Utopias, and see what you get! You'll be wantin' your $20-30k refunded back, like, IMMEDIATELY!!!
I've been around high end for 20 years plus, and have done hundreds of custom jobs. Sold, it all! Believe me, if it was what Waldner said, I'd be doing it that way, for sure....but it ain't, sorry.
Lucas Film spend hundreds of thousands of man-hours, and millions of dollars getting this stuff right for the home. Waldner, I'm sure you could show em a thing or two about HT..why don't you petition them to change their standards around. Oh, and BTW, send em your resume while you're at it...lol

Whew. sombody pushed a button. I can live without a sub, although I recently listened to a supercube and I did like it......

Personally,I think it's cool that the teacher "did" the kid!...lol

In a lot of cases the LFE channel is just glorified car audio, brought indoors. Why does it have to be loud "teevee" if you watch tasteful flicks that don't need LFE? I've seen far too many HT setups that actually used teevees instead of front projection, as it was meant to be.

I'd say unless you are a disciple of Cinematic_systems or exertfluffer and have to have active speakers, then just build the "best" 2CH or MCH music system you can, and graft on video in the from of front projection and call it a day.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

Aaron

Actually Aaron, I don't use active systems in all but the more expensive all out systems. Mostly, I use "meat-n-potatoes" typical monitor speakers, with good gear combos, sometimes even receivers, yes!...there I said it...ehem.
Bottom line, most people budget for this, not the "balls to the wall" full-on system. That'll always be the case.
Never the less, I try to always lead them that way, to the very best. Inevitably, they end up with the Honda Accord over the Ferrari. I understand.
Basically, I preach "balance!" It can be done superbly at even the lowest levels, if you know what your doing.
It's the "knowing what you're doing" where all the audio enthusiests fall flat. Just the way it is...

Flrnlamb wouldn't know good sound if it landed in his lap. He also doesn't know that "high Q" refers to poor quality underdamped bass. High end audiophile speakers are Low Q. THX and Lucas Film are responsible for some terrible theater standards which limit the dispersion of loudspeakers to a degree that is unacceptable. That is why no respected high-end speaker manufacturer has a "THX" logo on their speakers. This is unlike amplifier manufacturers who can build a very good amplifier that happens to meet the minimal and meaningless THX spec without having to screw up the design of the amp.

Also, a Definitive sub is not even close to a 9/10 in bass quality relative to more capable high end offerings. The Wilson speakers (plus countless others) are shockingly better in terms of bass quality than anything made by Definitive. Good examples of Low Q, high quality subwoofers can be found from REL or a Vandersteen.

If you are looking for high-end sound QUALITY, Flrnlamb is definitely not the guy to get advice from.

Waldner123's feelings are hurt. Sorry. Desparate attempt to discredit an accomplished HT designer, and more experience audiophile to boot!...ehem.
Good try, no-one's biting Waldner!
Also, you didn't answer my claim to your HT experience. So that answers that. You've never built an HT for anyone but yourself, face it.

"He also doesn't know that "high Q" refers to poor quality underdamped bass. High end audiophile speakers are Low Q"(Waldner123)

WRONG!!!! YOU JUST STUCK YOUR FOOT IN YOUR MOUTH Waldner!...lol Let's ask THX, any speaker manufacture, recording engineer, acoustician, etc, what "Low Q", "high Q" means!
High Q is Higher control, tighter damping. "Low Q" is what most "home theater subs" are!...not the other way around!! Sorry, your wrong here, as in others.
Anyone else here care to clear this up, regarding the "Low Q, High Q" situation?!
Let's email a few high end speaker makers, acoustical engineers (Rivesaudio.com, PMI, etc), THX, and others to ask...what do you say Waldner???
Sure you want to make that statement about my ignorance here? It's making you look worse, I'm tellin' ya...lol.

I'm not even going to "go there" about THX speakers in theaters or home! Because you obviously don't know what you're talking about regarding eithers applications, and are biased toward audiophile speakers, to no end...good for you. enjoy your lackluster delicate speakers and poor acoustics. Don't sell me what I already have done a thousands times, and it doesn't work. No thanks...

Like I said a ton..."if anyone wants to put up the budget, I'll be more than happy to do what "Extreme choppers" TV show does, and that's have a "Biker buildoff", er, "HT build-off"!!!! I garantee victory at any budget!
I take on any comers....lol

Actually, in clarifying, I'm refering to something else here in regards to "speaker driver Q"! yes, lower "Q" woofer is a tighter driver setup. Higher 2.0, etc, "Q" is typical in boomy subs, yes. "Q" is an often misinterpreted discription, dpending on wether your talking speaker desing, or acoustics. Non-the less, "tighter Q" speaker desings, are better associated with higher quality speaker designs mostly, and weaker Q designs are with lower qualiy, mos often. STill, most "lower Q" speaker designs, like typical audiophile offerings, won't handle deep dynamic bass, in a passive design mostly, from DD/DTS material! This is even more true of "very low Q" sealed enclosure "high end designs", like from Dunlavy, and other sealed speaker designs. There is therefore always compromises in speaker configurations, sadly.
Still, the best solution is a slightly "less than Ideal" "Q" subwoofer situation, to improve output and dynamic range for demanding DD/DTS tracks, and maximize movie impace on earthquakes, dino-romps, explosions, gun blasts, tornados, mass destruction, etc. Your typical audiphile designs just blow all to hell if you don't do bass managment to a more apt sub system.
This compromise is still better than the typical full range speaker setup audiophile chose

Here, let me help you remove your foot from your mouth.

Sloppy HIGH "Q" bass is just that-- sloppy bass. It makes no difference whether you are watching a film or listening to music. An audio system will tend to sound best when it is more accurately reproducing the input signal. For movies, there is plenty of intense bass built right into the soundtracks themselves.

With the exception of a very select few high quality, Low Q subwoofers, the lack of an LFE and the presence of very capable front main loudspeakers and audiophile electronics is what defines the home theater as "high-end".

Truth be told, most "home theater" systems are less good sounding than a high-end two-channel system used for movies. Sure, the stereo system may lack many of the rear localized special effects, but from a clarity and sound quality standpoint, they are still far better.

And here is one more that will send Furrylamb into a tailspin. Most center channel speakers sound noticeably worse than having that same information routed to your main speakers, assuming your main speakers are capable high-end designs. Center speakers, like powered subwoofers, tend to be poorly designed in comparison. A really good center channel is the exception, not the rule.

You know, we can flip flop terminoligy back and forth, we're talking about the same thing in regards to "tighly controled/damped woofers" vs. more loosly controled woofers. And there are certainly many high performance subs that do very well in the "control" and "accuracy" category, especially when you consider the job they're designed to take on! This is music AND movies here!!
So what Waldner is stating, is that his 2 channel, full range, stereo speaker setup, is the way it's REALLY BEST! Sounds like his personal issue to me. I'm sure 99.999% of all the audio/video reviewers, recording engineers, and industry professionals alike would agree here....NOT!!!
Why do you think they all promote, and have promoted for years, since all this AV stuff came down the pike, that you should IDEALLY, have 2 SEPARATE SYSTMES!?!...one for music 2 channel and one for movies!?! Well there, because IT DOESN'T WORK BETTER FOR MOVIES DOING 2 CHANNEL, that's why!

"With the exception of a very select few high quality, Low Q subwoofers, the lack of an LFE and the presence of very capable front main loudspeakers and audiophile electronics is what defines the home theater as "high-end" (Waldo)

UH, no. the BALANCE of effective, and properly selected gear for your room/system, properly SETUP gear, speaker location/setup, seating, room acoustics(easily HALF THE EQUATION!!!), noise control, airconditioning, light controled, well damped, tweaked, and effectively engineered and executed room is what DEFINES A HOME THEATER AS HIGH END! You stand corrected.
Every high end guru worth his salt will tell you that having 2 audiophie (pleeeease!....) speakers and some gear IS ABOUT AS FAR FROM HAVING HIGH END HOME THATER AS IT GETS! Anyone buys this theory lives in his own world, and thinks the earth is "flat", and that "we've never been to the moon!" Yeah, no!... Waldorf Estoria guy!

"Truth be told, most "home theater" systems are LESS GOOD SOUNDING (doh!)than a high-end two-channel system used for movies. Sure, the stereo system may lack many of the rear localized special effects, but from a clarity and sound quality standpoint, they are still far better"(Walden Books)

yeah, this sounds like someone's "own personal little issue here", ya think?

"Most center channel speakers sound noticeably worse than having that same information routed to your main speakers, assuming your main speakers are capable high-end designs. Center speakers, like powered subwoofers, tend to be poorly designed in comparison. A really good center channel is the exception, not the rule." (Waldo Kitty)...lol

Yes, again, all the mixing engineers, dubbing studio's, movie theaters, recording people, and industry pro's alike(Who've hammered home forever,that the center channel is THE MOST IMPORTANT SPEAKER IN THE SYSTEM, for a reason), have it WRONG! Thank you Walden for clarifying. What were we all tinking!?!!!!...
Yeah, having all your info routed to two PASSIVE INNEFICIENT stereo speakers is the answer to it all, um, k, hummmm....no! Sharing the load amungst more drivers/speakers yeilds improved dynamics, clarity, stearing, efficiency in the system, impact, solidy of sound, detail(assuming quality gear, acoustics, setup, yes), system sensitivity, and thus dyamic prowess, dialog inteligibility, etc, with a good center speaker!!!
Yeah, let's compress everything from demanding complicated thouroughly mixed, dubbed, overlaid, overprocessed and confused soundtracks into 2 channels of BARELY ADDEQUATE, often under-adequate stereophile speakers!...yeah, that's it. They surely can handle what's at the movie theaters around town, cause they're always so efficient and effective that way...2 channel stero that is, from HOME AUDIO SPEAKERS, SURE!!!
Rule of thumb: DON'T LISTEN TO GREENPEACE PHSYCO'S, ALQUEDA,OR WALDEN123! The man knows nothing of setting up a home theater, probably from lazyiness, and lack of motivation...thus his 2 channel (easy route) supremecy stance.
Walden? You never gave us a resume of your credentials on building home theaters! Since you're dodging this one, I assume it's safe to say you have put together exactly 2 stereo systems total in your existence, and that's the extent of your high end AV career, yes? Or do you secretly build high peformance theaters for the rich?

The center channel is the most important speaker in a theater system, which is precisely why it is crucial that it be at least as high-quality, neutral and revealing as whatever your main speakers in the system are. Many people simply buy a center channel from the same manufacturer as their main speakers assuming it is as good (which it usually isn't), or worse, buy an inexpensive inferior center speaker that doesn't sound anywhere near as good as the more expensive and capable main speakers they already own.

But now for an English lesson: A few typos are one thing, but Flrnlamb clearly has a problem utilizing the english language.

Yeah, having all your info routed to two PASSIVE INNEFICIENT stereo speakers is the answer to it all, um, k, hummmm....no! Sharing the load amungst more drivers/speakers yeilds improved dynamics, clarity, stearing, efficiency in the system, impact, solidy of sound, detail(assuming quality gear, acoustics, setup, yes), system sensitivity, and thus dyamic prowess, dialog inteligibility, etc, with a good center speaker!!!

1. "INNEFICIENT" has one N and two Fs
2. "amungst" is spelled amongst
3. "stearing" is spelled steering
4. "solidy" is not a word, try solidity
5. "dyamic" = dynamic
6. "inteligibility" has two Ls right next to each other

Can you imagine correcting the whole post? Frnlamb, rather than repeating your mesmerizing credentials over and over again, why not learn how to spell at a 2nd grade level. I'm sure that alone would buy you some small measure of credibility.

it would be my hell!

I guess if you need your posts proof-read, and your grammar corrected, you talk to Walden. If you need your home theater (come on over, anytime folks, really!) done to a world class level, then you call me!...seems fair enough, sure...lol
20 years, 6 audio stores, and 2 high profile "Showcase homes" can't be wrong you know...

Mmm, Look at this pile of wrongness, see what happens when I'm not around. A view askew for sure...gentlemen must focus power and be realistic, lots of rights spoken here with just enough wrong to make a mess.

It's neat to have the .1 channel handled by a sub or two for really one reason in my mind, the best location for bass and the best location for midrange clarity from a single speaker are usually not the same spot. BUT!! from a shear output perspective 7.0 can work, with passive speakers bring the 3-400---1000 watt amplifiers cause the powered subs do.

DSP8000's will do 115dB at 30hz, good enough in my book

Do I actually see a positive post on the BP2000's? whoa where am i? Flrnlamb you been drinking?

Hey Aroc, I'm hiring a new jock holder, want to send your resume, you may just know enough to get the job. ;)

"if you watch tasteful flicks that don't need LFE"
tasteful= weenie A closing door uses LFE my friend

Since you brought it up (too many times to count) Flrnlamb, where can one go to buy gear from you and receive some of your wisdom? Also, I'm curious, which two "high profile showcase homes" did you do? And which six stores were you at?

I have a highend H.T setup which I have run both ways.I use B+W 801s for mains.I can tell you a good sub still makes a huge difference.I am using a paradigm servo 15 and an Anthem D1 pre/pro.You can spend alot more for a sub but I doubt you will get any better.I am not saying it is the best but it is certainly one of the best.IMHO