Anyone with a high-end home theater sans sub?

Here, let me help you remove your foot from your mouth.

Sloppy HIGH "Q" bass is just that-- sloppy bass. It makes no difference whether you are watching a film or listening to music. An audio system will tend to sound best when it is more accurately reproducing the input signal. For movies, there is plenty of intense bass built right into the soundtracks themselves.

With the exception of a very select few high quality, Low Q subwoofers, the lack of an LFE and the presence of very capable front main loudspeakers and audiophile electronics is what defines the home theater as "high-end".

Truth be told, most "home theater" systems are less good sounding than a high-end two-channel system used for movies. Sure, the stereo system may lack many of the rear localized special effects, but from a clarity and sound quality standpoint, they are still far better.

And here is one more that will send Furrylamb into a tailspin. Most center channel speakers sound noticeably worse than having that same information routed to your main speakers, assuming your main speakers are capable high-end designs. Center speakers, like powered subwoofers, tend to be poorly designed in comparison. A really good center channel is the exception, not the rule.

Since you brought it up (too many times to count) Flrnlamb, where can one go to buy gear from you and receive some of your wisdom? Also, I'm curious, which two "high profile showcase homes" did you do? And which six stores were you at?

Flrnlamb said: "YES, EVEN A PAIR OF OLD DEFINITIVE BP2000'S WITH 15" 1000WATT ACTIVE AMPS DRIVING THE BASS, WILL STOMP ANY WILSON GRAND SLAM, JM LABS UTOPIA FULL RANGE, or anything else you can think of that's passive, even being driven by, YES, Bolder 1000watt monos!!!!!...graantee it, every time!!"

Nothing could be further from the truth. The active subwoofer section of a Definitive BP-anything is not capable of high-end bass reproduction any more than Flrnlamb is capable of writing a respectful, modest, or believable description of his own knowledge on the subject.

Most powered subwoofers like the Definitive (and actually 99% of powered subwoofers) are incapable of the kind of accuracy, control, lack of boom or overhang, and integration that defines high-end sound. I would argue that systems which contain state-of-the-art amplification driving very accurate full range speakers are far superior in every qualitative way to all but the very rarest few powered woofers. By telling your surround unit to route the LFE information to the much more accurate main front channels, which are in turn being driven by a far superior amplifier, the result his high-end bass.

The vast majority of active subwoofers can, when dialed up to exagerated levels, provide much more bass quantity, but very poor bass quality.

Flrnlamb wouldn't know good sound if it landed in his lap. He also doesn't know that "high Q" refers to poor quality underdamped bass. High end audiophile speakers are Low Q. THX and Lucas Film are responsible for some terrible theater standards which limit the dispersion of loudspeakers to a degree that is unacceptable. That is why no respected high-end speaker manufacturer has a "THX" logo on their speakers. This is unlike amplifier manufacturers who can build a very good amplifier that happens to meet the minimal and meaningless THX spec without having to screw up the design of the amp.

Also, a Definitive sub is not even close to a 9/10 in bass quality relative to more capable high end offerings. The Wilson speakers (plus countless others) are shockingly better in terms of bass quality than anything made by Definitive. Good examples of Low Q, high quality subwoofers can be found from REL or a Vandersteen.

If you are looking for high-end sound QUALITY, Flrnlamb is definitely not the guy to get advice from.

I actually agree with much of what you have said Cinematic. At the performance level of most systems, a good powered subwoofer makes a huge difference in the enjoyment of the movie experience. I was only responding to some of the over-the-top and condescending comments made by Flrnlamb in a couple of his posts prior to my joining the thread. He was so rude and full of himself without having a leg to stand on that I felt compelled to give him a few jabs.

But just so I am not misunderstood, at the very highest-end of audio and home theater (the state-of-the-art), having a mediocre powered subwoofer (like the one mentioned in Flrnlamb's example) will actually make the system sound worse than it would without it. A Definitive powered subwoofer will not even come close to sounding as good in the bass as pair of big Wilson speakers driven by a Boulder 1000 watt amplifier. My comments were in reference to that ludicrous example specifically. But yes, in the real world of much more affordable components, the same powered sub can be a wonderful thing. The same applies to my comments about a center channel sometimes making worse sound than the much better quality mains could.

Also, you shouldn't assume that a good understanding and of what some consider "wacky expensive" audiophile systems precludes an equally good understanding of multichannel home theater systems. I actually love both, and believe that many who are home theater enthusiasts could benefit from some audiophile experience.

Simply assuming that almost any powered sub, speaker and crossover combination can work and blend well is setting the bar too low. THX requirements are also setting the bar way to low. There really is a reason that not a single respected high-end loudspeaker manufacturer chooses to pay the fees to have a THX logo on their speaker systems. Having to meet the THX requirements wouldn’t just dumb down a loudspeaker, it would render it incapable of making natural and realistic sound.

While theater systems are different from two channel audio systems in a few ways, most obviously in the number of speakers, they require the same techniques and understanding of what makes each channel sound good and natural, and to get each channel to blend and image with the other channels in the system. Your equipment and loudspeakers have no idea what the difference is between a movie soundtrack and a music recording. Their job is to accurately reproduce the input signal as best they can. Because of this, the best foundation for a great theater system is a great two-channel audio system and the people who tend to achieve the best sound are those who have significant experience in high-end two-channel audio.

Three Flrnlamb posts in a row and they get more rambling and incoherent each time. What in God's name is he even talking about?

Let's have some fun and try something new. Can anyone guess how many exclamation points Flrlamb used in his last post?

A. 16
B. 28
C. 46
D. So many that the author would have to be insane!
E. Both C and D

If you answered E, you are correct. Those who answered D get partial credit for make an astute observation apart from the tedious exercise of actually counting such a ridiculous number of exclamation points. Next time I'm going to count the number of times he uses "lol" or types in all caps.

Also, for a guy who has bragged about his credentials to the point of making everyone nauseous, he really doesn't want to verify what those credentials are. Flrnlamb said:

If you need your home theater (come on over, anytime folks, really!) done to a world class level, then you call me!...seems fair enough, sure...lol

I’m certainly not interested, but maybe some other Audiogoner’s are. "Come on over, really..." Where?