On the grapevine I have heard that these amps are good enough to be the end of the line. Given their reasonable cost - that would be great news. Any comments?
I owned the Nuforce Ref 9 (not SE) amps and they were cold sounding. Forgot to mention those in my listing of other amps. Had them for a month, but I needed more body and texture then these were capable of. The Samson amps are not Class D, but A/B amps.
Also, a friend of mine owns the D225 amp and it is also wonderful, but the new Samson mono's are certainly better. Paul and Brian have new learnings and thus the birth of Samson.
I can see why you would think Digital or Class D Grant.
They have far more scale, body, texture and dimension to them as compared to my past Nuforce experience.
It is not Class D, although you are correct that regarding heat distribution it resembles a Class D design. Sonically IMO that is not the case.
It is a well known fact that information and specs on TRL components is hard to come by. While Paul Weitzel measures his equipment the main design goal is the end result which is always about the sound. It is also well documented that specs don't always tell the whole story about a particular component, TRL or others.
So with that said from what I've been able to gather the design is biased Class A up to a certain point, then A/B. Another tidbit that I discovered is that from a current draw this amp design is incredibly efficient. The capacitance within the amp also factors in an immense storage capacity for reserve power when required. That in part is why I think many can equate the sound of this amp to a live experience. Transients are amazing and the amp responds in lightning quick fashion.
The amp is dead quiet and the new power supply design is supposed to be the best yet. Not that the old one or the battery power supplies were shabby either. One thing I can say is Paul has an excellent understanding of electricity and power supplies. Also as a recording engineer he certainly has his own understanding and opinions on live sound.
Fiddler, so are you saying that these are Class D amps or that these just sound like Class D amps?
FWIW, I've heard a few Class D amps and while they have sounded very good (especially for the money), none exhibited the sound of my TRL D-225.
I have found the Class D amps I have heard to be very transparent, neutral, and they are very efficient. However, they lacked a very key component IMO to what the TRL offers and that is presenting the music in a very natural life like manner. There could be Class D amps that do this, but none that I have heard. I think its why tube preamps are a good match for Class D amps.
Tvad and others with interest. For some time due to intellectual property concerns the D-225/ST-225/M-225 amps were "locked down" and unable to be opened. Now that those concerns have been addressed the amps innards can be viewed. I was just on the phone with a new Samson owner the other day who gave me a very detailed description of what was inside. From my previous knowledge and experience it was consistent with what I already knew and provided some additional insight on the design.
Clio, I have not heard the M225's or the D225 (could the "D" simply stand for digital and the M for mono blocks?).
Make no mistake. I am not disparaging Class D. I have often wondered whether I should sideline my Berning and try a Bel Canto, Spectron or Rowland. I love the purity of Class D. I had a PS Audio HCA2 which I modded with upgraded caps, solid silver wiring, etc. This was early Class D and probably far from current state of the art, but I enjoyed the amp after modding it.
My only question here is whether TRL would avoid disclosing the design of the amp if asked? I know that TRL is famous for hiding what they consider to be proprietary work inside their products by pouring epoxy all over many of the parts. There is also a very unflattering thread on Audio Circles about TRL and the very poor quality of their work (alleged in the thread).
I personally know nothing of TRL, but the rave reviews of the M225's have piqued my interest, but so has the negative thread on Audio Circles.
Well I have the amps in my home per the review. Yes, one can take the cover off and look inside if they want.
These are Class A/B and not Class D. Not sure why Fiddler suggests some of us (owners) are not telling the truth?
Tvad, you had mentioned you did not care for the Nuforce amps and thought that (Class D) may be the type of amp and sound of the Samsons. This was the reason for my short comparison. Clio09 also gave some spot on differences in the sound quality of Class D amps vs and these Samson amps.
Paul's has designed a new power supply that is greatly responsible for for the ground breaking musicality of these amps.
The "D" in D-225 stood for Dual Mono. Another unique design feature of TRL amps/preamps is the use of a high quality breaker switch in lieu of fuses. When powering on my D-225 you could hear the dual power supplies engage.
In addition to Grannyring's comments about the new power supply I would add that Paul Weitzel has always eschewed negative feedback. Many transistor designs utilize some amount of negative feedback, but not the TRL designs. Paul has also addressed the issue of ground noise in his designs. Another reason these amps are dead quiet.
The Audio Circle thing has been beaten to death. You just have to make your own personal call on that. As evidenced by people like Grannyring and Interlochen who have purchased these amps and whose other components past and present speak for themselves, sometimes you just have to take a chance on things. In this case neither has been disappointed from what I can tell.
Tvad, my mistake. I am remembering some past comments or impressions you had on the Nuforce amps.
Gammajo, my experience with Paul & Brian at TRL has been wonderful. That's all I can say - wonderful. I would start a dialog with Paul and get your own impressions over time.
Sorry, my fault. It wasn't Audio Circle, but rather - head-fi. As always, there are two sides to every story and who knows what the truth really is. I simply found this thread when I began researching TRL due to the raves here on the 'Gon about the M225.
Fiddler - wow - that is an interesting thread, in a car accident kind of way. Thank you for sharing - it is good to hear all sides. Grannyring - my own respect for you, and the high opinions of you many others I communicate with here have expressed to me will keep me interested in the Samson's. They are my next up to consider when the finances are right and they show up used. I just received some used Nuforce Reference 9 V2 SE's that were more in my current price range. On initial listening the SE's seem way cool with correct power cords and vibration control and I think will give me the pleasure of going through my whole music collection with a renewed grin on my face.
Corrections. The M225 and Samson are not identical, the latter using a new power supply.
If these are Class D amps they eclipse every D amp I've heard. I'm intimately familiar with the Class D fingerprint and this isn't it, tempting to say by far. Paul told me the first ~10 watts are class A. This is consistent with very low level performance. Milliwatts sound identical to power levels at much greater SPLs. No contraction of soundstage depth or width, etc.
Maybe it leaps over to Class D at > 10 watts??
Bass control, weight .... everything bass is stunning.
I will submit a review after 500 hours, but I could go on and on. I've yet to find a flaw. They are highly SC sensitive.
Try Ken Bonfield's American Baroque: Steel String Surprise through these devices. My most intense musical experience to date.
Yes, the bass is simply unmatched by a wide, wide margin compared to all I have owned. Paul said this to me and he is so right. I can now follow bass lines that were either blurred or even silent in my passed systems.
Paul has many of his own recordings which he knows like the back of his hand. At least he thought so. These new amps reveal aspects of his self produced records which he now hears for the first time. He and Brian played recording after recording so excited by Samson's power supply. They were like children having so much fun!
The power supply is the key! Paul's circuit design, wire and overbuilt parts are also key.
My Dude preamp has the same power supply design and does bass better then any SS or tube preamp my lucky ears have heard. The bass coming out of the Dude is remarkable to say the least. The two units together are pure musical heaven.
Since my D-225 is for sale, I wasn't going to post here. I didn't want it to look like I was promoting my ad. But since Tvad already mentioned it, I'll throw in my opinion.
I owned NuForce Ref 9's & Ref 9 V2's for about 1 1/2 years. I really enjoyed them, the detail and especially the bass, was better than anything I had previously heard. And for the money, they were a bargain. The only downside (for me), they weren't the most "musical" amps.
After the NuForce amps, I bought a Belles 150A Reference. Again, I really liked this amp. Not quite the bass of the NuForce, but more musically involving. This was going to be my last amp and I was hoping to buy a second and use them as monoblocks. Then the I saw the TRL D-225 for sale.
Enter the TRL D-225. Whole new world! As someone else wrote, all of the typical audiophile adjectives fail to do justice to what I heard. It just sounds like music. Unmatched low-end control of my Vandersteen 3a Signatures and absolutely, positively dead quiet. Crazy quiet. Paul recently contacted me and offered to upgrade mine to the new power supply, which according to him, will make it quieter yet.
I have no inside knowledge and I haven't opened mine up, but for what it's worth, the D-225 does not sound like a digital amp to me.
Grannyring and Ecruz if either of you ever hear the SE version of the Nuforce Reference 9V2 I would be very interested in a comparison to what you are hearing with the TRL products. I recently acquired the SE version and they sound quite musical to me, not cold or warm, more like neutral. Chris Martens, reviewer for Absolute Sound, for example, has followed the evolution of Nuforce and reports Dec 2008 that with the V2 SE, Nuforce finally reached a "high level of sweetness that is intimate focused and pure".
I have heard the latest D225 stereo amp compared to the Samson mono's. As good as the D225 is, trust me when I say the Samsons are a step forward. The main reason is the new power supply. Also, each mono amp has the same sized transformer as used in the one stereo amp. There is also more room to work inside the monos making for better layout etc.
I did not hear the SE version of the Nuforce amps, but it seems Ecruz thinks even the D225 amp surpassed it. My old ST225 integrated TRL amp bested the combination of Canary CA339 monoblock tube amps ($14,000) and a fully loaded Audio Horizons 2.1 tube preamp ($3200). My old ST225 integrated is not nearly as good as the Samson and Dude!
I wish I had tried the Nuforce SE's so I could have more first hand experience with those amps.
The nice things is that at 8 pounds, you can talk a friend into bringing the Nuforce's over! I wanted to hear the Pass XA 100.5's with my equipment after they sounded amazing at a friend's house but didn't have the heart to ask him to lug their 100+ lbs X 2 to my house.
Goodness, Tvad is correct. V1, V2, SE confuses me, but I understand the Ref 9's V2 SE are the best Nuforce amps to date. Hope I did not mess up the model again :-)
Looking, searching for flaws. amp notes 12/16 tues Bax amp delivers supremely well packed in a solid wood cubical crate. 45 minutes to extraction. Get a Phillips bit for your drill.
Stone cold -- I mean cold -- and with no break-in I like the sound produced by these large, flatish stainless steel devices immediately. They look like gear pulled from a navy ship, built for combat duty. The Samson fascia dispells that notion and accents a very attractive utilitairian appearance.
thur 12/18 A tangible tactility, like the bite one gets from steak with perfect texture. Yes -- I feel compelled to chew on something wonderful while listening to Ann Calloway, Even more so with Rebecca Kilmore. A certain angle of attack on Acoustic steel strings elicits this response. Where's the fondue? The leading edge of marc antoines guitarmakes s me look up and ponder. A first.
Kenny G's ubuiqity and ubctuousness induced rep is ufair. Maybe it is fair but Ritmo y Romance sounds wonderfu. Rare is the sax I can tolerate. ... Stan Getz. these Amps render usually what is tortuous SAX nasality has me seeking sax music. Impossible.
Mkaes things sound happy, Frank S, who I loathe.
no image wander, focused, layered.
no fatigue, long sessions.
Sounds like a different amp on evert song. Disappears yet grips.
"I've never heard anything like it.
HIGHLY TEXTURED, MORE COMPLETE rendering of harmonic content.
Sometimes it sounds so good it's hard to believe (< 30 HOURS)
Bass plumbs deep, midbass finesse Larry Carlton "slightly dirty bass"
Beyond lateral boundaries
had to get up and walk aroundfocus, layering, ...phile stuff secondarily considered. Just there, not wanting for more in the face of extreme listenabilty and conveyance of musical pleasure.
Looking, searching for flaws.
tonal contrast between Ann's voice and muted trumpet makes me look up.
textuing, tonality, vibration of piano stromg fully revealed, as though under a sonic electron micorscope.
Joe Pass. Rawness of sound, as though possible to parse rawness sources. Early SS consoles? Guitarets seek a certain sound and what is captured here sounds like a Pass sounnd Marred by poor ss, engineering.
Samson removes the perpetual amplification from the system equation.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ The Clarinets sound is unmistable, mellow, round, unique -- on a good system easily distinguished from Soprano Sax.
I played years ago, . There is a particular way the reed feels against the lip, the aural perspective of the intrument mounted in your grasp and jaw. It has a unique smell. It's been years since I've experienced that odor, but did today. Anat Cohen and her group. A song I've heard a dozen times. Today I smelled it. Cork grease, Ebony, a well used moist reed.
Trish Hatley, Hans and Phil singing... . Do I see Trish swing her head, as though trying to adjust interferring hair? Vocal producing structures visible. Dick Olsher's Leslie test ... Aural MRI
I agree Bill. The notes, despite being stream-of-consciousness, offer insight into an intriguing piece(s) of gear that I have not heard but would like to....
Bill, Are you running your amps continuously? I'm failing to do this, forgetting overnights at low levels for example. Realistically, 6-10 hrs/day.
I'm hard-pressed to believe that a specific regiment will result in a sound different from another, but who knows? Brian is mildly adamant about continuous break-in operation.
I'd fire this query at TRL were it not for the fact that I'm embarrassed for not following instructions! Dave (Regular music, no noise or special break-in CDs, of which I'm dubious.)
Standard TRL rule of thumb is 400 hours break in. You should do this by leaving the equipment on 24/7 and running a signal through it. From my experience it does not have to be at low level volume. I burned in my D-225 by playing a CD on repeat when I wasn't listening. I'd change the CD every now and again. I would use a burn in CD once a month, but this was for the entire system in general. The Granite Audio CD is a inexpensive and easy one to use.
My experience in general when breaking in any component, except for speakers, is that volume does not to be turned up for break in to occur. I do know some people who have told me running different levels of signals is helpful, but not from my experience. Just running a signal through is good enough. Of course power to the components being broken in must be turned on. Speakers on the other hand need some volume to work out the drivers. Here running different signal levels is helpful.
Now there are those who suggest running equipment 24 x 7 is not the way to do it but rather run the equipment in a cycle. For example, 12 hours on, 3 hours off. I never tried it that way so can't say one way or another if that is more effective.
As for break in CDs, the test tones that cover the entire frequency range are a good primer for the system. Sort of like giving it a work out. Some of the tracks are referred to as "torture tracks" and you can see why if you look at your woofer during the playback. A lot of the music we play does not cover the breadth of the frequency range like a break in CD does. You're basically giving your system a huge dose in a short period of time when you use a break in CD.
The break in CDs are good for components and cables. In fact Dale Pitcher who manufacturers your speakers uses one (I thing the Purist Audio CD). However, he warns against using it on repeat for extended periods as it imparts a sonic flavor of its own on the system, especially cabling.
I know what I heard but I will make one correction to my statement. Instead of "flavor" Dale used the term "sonic signature." Same thing IMO although some may disagree. The advice was imparted to me by Dale as I was breaking in a set of his Mosaic Chimera cables, of which I own 2 pairs of interconnects and a set of speaker cables (so I speak from experience). He recommended the PAD CD but not to use it on repeat to break in his cables. I opted for the Granite Audio CD but I still used it in the manner Dale suggested.
For the benefit of all, Dale Pitcher is the owner of Intuitive Audio Design and formerly affiliated with Essence Audio. His speaker and equipment designs are legendary and even his older Essence gear is still sought out by audiophiles.
Dale's designs enjoy a cult status among audiophiles for good reason. Sort of like Paul Weitzel at TRL. It's refreshing to hear about the synergy that Interlochen describes between his Intuitive Audio speakers and TRL amps. I've been in contact with 2 other Intuitive Design speaker owners who are also very interested in the Samson's. You just can't keep good news from traveling fast, no matter how hard you try.
The Intuitive design Gamma Summit is the final and most advanced of the Summit series which consists of a 2 unit, granite clad system. The top is the 2-way speaker using a custom Israeli Morel 7" midbass, T-line loaded. The soft-dome tweeter's identity is a secret, but is also modded and TL loaded.
1st order Xover with inductor and capacitor made by ID.
The base or stand is sand filled. 6 Stillpoints are used per side: 3 between speaker and stand, and 3 between stand and a 3" thick, 12"x18" Granite slab. Total weight per side is almost 300 lbs.
The speakers must be laser leveled for max performance and are excruciatingly sensitive to placement. 8' between speakers, 10 to my ears. Typically no toe-in, but sometimes I do a few degrees for a different perspective.
Both Paul and Dale use master tapes for voicing. I don't know if this is a factor in what turns out to be seductive synergy between amp and speaker. Impossible to know, of course, if this synergy is optimum without other speaker comparisons.
I'm the guilty culprit for suggesting to Agear about combining Intuitive Designs Gammas with TRL Samsons, this combo has to be more than outstanding, me thinks Interlochen has a superb sounding rig that's off the map !
It sounds pretty good Pat, but there is quite a bit to be done. Sources, room treatment, subwoofer. Though these speakers have usable output down to 30 Hz, I want the infrasonics fleshed out. MDHoover uses a Rel with great success, but I'll probably build a sub(s).
I turned my fireplace into a sub by installing a 1.5" thick baffle and 2 - 10" Eclipse auto subs some years ago. It's been gathering dust for a while so I'm going to break out the Behringer gear and bring it back to life.
The FP and chimney are 15' long, resulting in a beautiful resonance around 20Hz, but also at ~40 which corresponds to the rooms major mode. That has to be nulled with EQ, thus Behringer DCX and DEQ 2496. Dave
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