I also felt ripped off after reading that review in the latest issues of TAS. I was left wanting more info.
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There was a review posted online from Hometheatrehifi that has some measurements and comparisons to the XP-20 that they also reviewed. No idea of the weight these reviews carry as opposed to TAS, but there they are. |
I just read the TAS review. I'm disappointed that there was not some comparison made to the XP-20 or other top preamps. Anthony Cordesman should have done the review as he is the TAS guy who knows Pass gear. Also the review was very short and there were just as many pages with photos as there were pages with text. I actually didn't think it was such a good review. It mentions how close SS and tube designs have become and yet in the very same issue, Nelson Pass himself states the the two typologies are diverging. A couple of user reviews here on Audiogon would probably be more helpful. I found the Constellation gear review by JV to be much more informative. |
2006slam, I see you're in Hong Kong. Can you please describe the shop you listen at? I live in Phoenix & we don't have a Pass dealer anymore. We've never had an Accuphase dealer. The C3800 must be very nice, to be compared to the top Rowland & Pass preamps. I do have the XP-20 now & the Rowland 625. They definitely sound good together, IMO.... |
Rockitman, November last year I had listened to the XP-20 and found it 'okay' i.e. did not have the 'vow' surprise. During Christmas, I went back to the same shop with the same set up, I have auditioned the XP-30 and was impressed by the advancement Pass had made over the XP-20. It is a much improved pre-amp in all aspects : ambience, fine fine details, emotion/feelings, dynamics, harmonics, density, deep dark background etc. When it was A/B/C compared with ML326S and JR Corus in the same day and set up, it made me felt that the extra cost (about US$4K) is 'worth every penny of it'. In general, ML326S was similar in details, but more forward and I felt a bit harsh. Corus was more lay back with similar ambience to XP-30. I would say that XP-30 is even above the JR Criterion (US$3K more) and very close in most aspects with Accuphase C3800 (US$5K more). Both Criterion and C3800 is slightly more warmer and more comfortable to listen to. However, if you listen to a wider variety of music, XP-30 can be more appropriate. For your info, the system components used in the audition were : ML512 CD/SACD with NBS Extreme 1 pc and Remses XLR to pre-amp; NBS Black Label II+ for pre-amps and NBS Extreme 1 XLR to JR 625 power-amp - NBS Extreme 1 pc and Cardas Clear to Dynaudio Confidence C2. |
I'm currently reviewing the XP-30 and am just getting going. I reviewed the XP-20 (July 1, 2009 Dagogo) and have used the XP-2 in reviews along with other high end preamps over the past 2 1/2 years. It is immediately evident even out of the box cold that the XP-30 is more advanced. More interestingly, however, it is simultaneously more detailed and warmer. In fact, to my ears it's significantly warmer even thought it improves on detail and soundstaging. Tough to separate personal taste from objective characteristics at this early staget, but at this moment it's one of the three best preamps I've heard. Will be more confident of the real deal in two weeks. |
Boy I'm jellous. I have an XP-10 with Dynaudio Confidence C4 series II signatures with Odyssey KISMET MONO BLOCK amplifiers and playing Peter Paul and Mary best of collection through a OPPO BDP-83SE sounded simply stunning. The PASS LABS gear seems to be terrific in detail and separation around each image. dead quiet, and fast (strings). My XP-10 is less so on the bass side, where it is good, but doesn't have the drive I like. OK, I probably like too much! I'd love to hear the XP-20 and 30, too. I do agree that if you run the wrong stuff, the XP-10 could be too detailed. My ODYSSEY KISMET amplifiers are wonderfully smooth amps, and match very well with the pre and speakers. Their service is so good I have a spot for their stuff. A new remote on a USED SALE with no questions asked! I will always listen to their gear from now on. |
I also am quite pleased with how holographic or 3D my system sounds with the XP-20. However, this was improved by placing the XP-20 and other components in my rack on Vibraplane and Townshend Seismic Sink isolation platforms. The increased isolation allows very subtle ambient cues captured on some recordings to become apparent through the system. I think it has to do with superior needle/groove contact. I don't know what is happening when I put my SS electronics on the isolation platforms, but the sound improves and one area of improvement is imaging and presence. The XP-20 is very good in my system and I'm sure the XP-30 is even better, though I have not yet heard it. |
Barrysandy, I've got to take exception to your comment the XP-20 isn't 3D. My system is currently an Electrocompaniet EMC1-up, Pass XP-10, and Rowland 625, into Sonus Faber Concerto Domus floorstanders. (1) James EMB-1200 adds some low end. This system is as 3D as I've ever owned. All my current speakers are 2 ways. I just like 2 way speakers better, in my room. My XP-20 is sitting in the box until I install my Apogee Stages - the speakers I bought based on past experience with Apogee Mini Grands. If The ARC preamp you mention works better for you, I'd suggest system synergy. I'm familiar with Magnepan. My first panel speaker was the MG3.3R. I'm also familiar with the Pass Aleph 2s. I just sold mine, after 10 years. |
I'm a big Pass fan. More of the amps than the preamps. I agree with Thaller's assessment of the Pass trajectory based on ownership of the X0.2 and the XP-20. more resolution and lower noise floor and throw in some better bass while you're at it. Ultimately, I still found the 20 too 2-D and lacking texture so I hope the 30 makes that leap. It wasn't the amps in my system as they are still the same. My current ARC preamp dramatically changed everything that I was missing. There's as much detail but it sounds much more natural. I expect the Ref 5 would do the same so it's not that it's an unfair comparison but I can't be sure. |
Peterayer, Thanks for your comments. I appreciate it. Given the cost of the XP30 and XP25, I think the biggest bang for the buck would be to trade up to the XP15. Or maybe the XP25 if you spin a fair amount of vinyl. I have not heard both phono preamps back-to-back in the same system, but Mark Sammut characterized the XP15 as providing 70% - 75% of the (sonic) benefits of the XP25. Of course, the 25 has the front panel adjustments, which is a really nice touch. For me, I find myself listening to vinyl about 30% of the time, using an "entry-level" high end cartridge (Dynavector Karat 17D3), so found the extra investment in the XP25 tough to justify. However, the XP15 was a definite step up over my Xono, and the sonic benefits were immediately apparent. As for the XP30 vs the XP20, I think I'd have to live with both for a few days and listen to a greater variety of source material to make the call if the extra view is worth the climb. (Mark, as you know, allows a 10 day test drive.) What I heard in the comparison in Reno was that the XP30 was superior - notably with respect to a wider and deeper soundstage and a bit more of that overall "tube-like ease" (especially with the XA amps) but, apart from that, the XP20 held its own. I came away from that session with a clear sense that I was definitely missing something by not having the class A monoblocks, but didn't come to that same conclusion with respect to the XP20. Cheers, |
Hthaller, Thank you very much for that informative and detailed write-up. I have the XA160.5 and XP-20 and Xono. Based on your experience, would I be better served by replacing the XP-20 with the XP-30, or the Xono with the XP-15 or XP-25? Like you, I have deep Pass Labs experience rather than broad. I've owned the Aleph 3, 5, 2, the Ono, Xono, Aleph P, X-1, XP-20, XA160, XA100.5 and XA160.5. I've always wanted to meet Mark Sammut and the guys at Pass. It's a great company with great products. Thanks for sharing your experience. |
I just ran across this thread and thought my past and recent experiences with Pass Labs gear might be of some help. My experience is deep, rather than broad, as I have not had the opportunity to compare Pass products to other gear. However, over the past 7 years Ive rolled a number of Pass Labs components through my system (mainly used and factory refurbished): X250, X250.5, X350.5, XA160.5, X-1, XP-20, Xono, and XP15. My speakers throughout the past 10 years have been the Martin Logan Odysseys. As luck would have it, last summer I had the occasion to make a business trip to Nevada. I took advantage of the situation and spent an afternoon with Mark Sammut of Reno Hi-Fi, who graciously treated me to a comparison of various combinations of the X350.5, XA100.5, XA160.5, XA200.5, XP20, XP30, and XP25. Mark was running the Pass SR-2 speakers. To my ears, anyway, Nelson and Wayne have been on a pretty consistent development trajectory. As you advance from the X-1 to the XP30, I would characterize the improvements as providing greater resolution (I think the same is also more or less true of the move from the X to X.5 class AB amps). By resolution, what I hear in moving up the Pass preamp food chain is a consistent increase in the black quietness from which the music emerges, an increasing ability to discern separate instruments and voices, better control of bass, and a wider and deeper soundstage. BUT, the magnitude of the differences I heard between these preamps depended on the power amp. The differences are more obvious (and breathtaking) as you move into the larger XA class A amps. IMHO, if you are running one of their class AB X.5 amps (or equivalent) the XP20 will be plenty of preamp. Yes, you will be able to hear improvements in the XP30, but put the extra $$ towards one of the XA power amp monoblock designs, instead. I would characterize the improvements I hear in moving from the X350.5, to the XA100.5 and up the food chain to the XA200.5 amps as providing increasing amounts of body and 3 dimensionality to the instruments. To use a visual analogy, I would describe the X350.5 amp as providing a crystal-clear, hi-definition image. Using better and better preamps in the Pass lineup brings higher and higher definition, but turning up the volume simply makes that hi-def image brighter and brighter, and it remains, in essence, a 2 dimensional image. The XA amps take that hi-def image and turn the pinpoint voices and instruments into individual 3-D holograms of the real thing. The bigger the XA amp, the more palpable the holograms. With these amps, turning up the volume is like moving your seat in a concert hall closer to the stage. The soundstage reaches out and envelops you. In my case, I felt that my system was better served by keeping my XP20, busting my budget, and trading in my X350.5 for a pair of used XA160.5's. (The combination of the XP25, XP30, and XA200.5 I heard at Marks' was outrageous - both in sound and $$, unfortunately). If you want to read more, I have found two really good sources. The first is Nelson Pass, himself. Read his article Audio, Distortion, and Feedback on the Pass Labs website. In it, he discusses the various types of circuit design, distortion and the use of negative feedback. I found his observations to translate to what I heard in their X.5 and XA.5 amps. There are also interesting reviews of the XP20 and XP phono preamps on the hometheaterhifi.com website (the link can be found on the Pass website under Reviews. Hope this helps. |
My understanding from Pass is that the margin of improvement from XP -20 to XP-30 is about the same as XP-10 to XP-20. I have not compared the xp10 to the xp20 so I don't have any reference. I did compare the Ayre kxr and the Pass xp10 in my system and found the kxr to be much better and it should at x3.5 cost of the xp10. The kxr sounded very natural and easy to listen in my system. According to people that have compared the xp20 to the kxr, the xp20 comes close but the kxr is still better. Can the xp30 match or exceed the kxr? I am looking to get either a kxr or an xp30 in few months. |
I'd like to hear from someone who has taken RENO HiFi's offer for a favorable trade-in exchanging the XP-20 for the XP-30. But I think it's still a bit early as this new pre was just released. I have read that the old X0.2 sounded better than the old X1. I think this is simply the completed XP line replacing the X line of pre amps. It does take up a lot of rack space, especially if one adds the two box XP-25 phono. Wait until the new line of amps hits the market. |
Mdowns, I also went from the X1 to the XP10 and got it from Mark too, and yes, what a great upgrade! So much better bottom end, better volume flexibility, better remote, better gain structure, and great at low levels. Warmer sound too and more musical. I bet Mark said the XP30 was great, for 16K it better be! To Rockitman, my read on the owners manual for the XP30 (now posted on the Pass Labs site)is that they really did make some big advances on the circuitry and power supplies that would lead me to believe that it does offer significant advances in SQ, but I would think you'd need a very high level system to enjoy those differences. And a bunch more cash. I'd sure love to hear it. |
Thesoundhouse--interesting! I have the XP10 and love it too and have always wondered about the XP20--can you be more specific about why you stuck w/ the XP10? How did bass compare? That XP30 looks out of control--or totally in control, depending on how you look at it. Looks like it's best for a complex, multi-amp system with external crossovers--like Nelson's own system! Anyway, it is nice to see Pass always pushing the envelope. We'll probably see an XP10.5 soon! |
Sfstereo, I'm in the same boat as you. I have the XP-10. The Pass website now has posted pictures & a detailed description & the owner's manual for the XP-30. Since it lists for so much $$, I'm looking for an XP-20. I like my XP-10 so much, I'll probably keep it for video. It sounds so good, I'd prefer 2 excellent channels to 5 that are so-so, through a video processor. |