initial reactions to the mini 5 are quite positive btw... still listening, swapping, assessing, will report findings in about a week or so i would hopeMucho looking forward to your findings @jjss49 — any of the initial “chalkiness” clear up?
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upgrades are part of the game, part of the continuing development... same with cars, cameras, what have you... at least in audio we don't have strictly articulated model years that prod producers to introduce new stuff , engineering improvements, ad nauseum each year... part of my curiosity already having the agd audions and hearing their lovely sound and greatly respecting their capability is to understand the gan technology better, in different applications - clearly agd has tried to make their gear higher end, more unique, clever and romantic packaging, w top flight materials and workmanship indicating a more elite, luxury positioning -- so in contrast, i think it's educational for me to hear when another enterpreneur tries to do a much much lower dollar product, single chassis stereo minimalist case, ’nothing but the essentials’ approach with the same basic gan technology, and see if the sound quality can compare reomotely, or favorably - of course i would expect it to not be quite as good as the 10x price audions, but is it 20-30-50-70-80 percent of the way there? initial reactions to the mini 5 are quite positive btw... still listening, swapping, assessing, will report findings in about a week or so i would hope |
Anything bought today could be considered outdated tomorrow, what you never buy anything because it will eventually become outdated? He did get it right the first time but like anything products evolve. Do a Google search for Alberto you will find his background is pretty amazing, the work he has done with the GAN tech which he holds several patents for is very important for audio he did not go to a parts store for GAN he designed his GAN products. I have heard several other GAN amps and they cannot compare to the AGD's period he knows how to design a circuit using GAN. |
rh67, The guy at AGD modded the crap out of his first GaN tube to make the second version (which is what you have). Look at the difference in the circuits inside the fake tube on this page: http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0421/AGD_The_Audion_MkII_Review.htm What’s a matter for him?.....he did not get it right the first time? What, he is human? There is no getting it right the first time......there is no RIGHT! Everything is evolving and changing. We are all evolving....some at different rates. All products evolve over time....or they get left in the dust. There will be a third generation.......or maybe a completely different model amp that blows this one away by AGD or by others. What you have it already outdated!...he he. Ask the designer if he has some more mods up his sleeve.....I dare you......of course, he would not tell you or anyone.....would screw up his sales......better just to spring it on people when it is ready to sell.....then let them weep.....he he. It's $2000 to upgrade your old GaN tubes in these babies........what will Gen 3 cost? |
in the front or the back?Yeah I was definitely referring to the front and not the back — not that there’s anything wrong with that. Having to do mods tells me design is in question.Not sure about that — coulda just been cost constraints in designing to a price point. Always trade offs. That’s where modders and model upgrades (looking at you ARC) come in. |
I had been on the class D roller coaster for over a decade and was about to throw in the towel. Then someone here on this forum mentioned the AGD Audion, i thought ok i will give these a try. Needless to say i was taken back everything my WAVAC 300b could do the AGD's could do better. And i have the entry level amps. So yes you can have the SQ of a tube amp and take the best of a SS amp within a class D amp IF designed properly from the start. Having to do mods tells me design is in question. |
Class D offers the ability to have a similar distortion signature, but at a much lower level, easily over a magnitude lower. This allows the amp to also be more neutral. A class D amplifier also does not need regular service, makes a lot less heat and is more compact. If you can offer all those advantages over tubes with the same smoothness and detail thru the mids and highs why on earth would you **not** do that?Does this notion give anyone else a slight bulge in their pants? |
The "distortion signature" is just one of an infinite amount of things that effect the sound.It is true that phase shift can cause colorations. But beyond that almost anything else that results in an audible difference is likely due to how it affects the distortion. "Designed properly".......now that is funny. There is no consensus in high end audio as to what that means.This is true. For me, 'designed properly' (which I hope was easily inferred from my prior post) simply means that the amp will have a distortion signature that allows it to be neutral (while otherwise allowing the amp to be usable and reliable....). I don't regard most solid state amps as neutral because their distortion signature includes unmasked higher ordered harmonic distortion which is audible as brightness and harshness; literally the reason that vacuum tubes are still around. They aren't 'designed properly' IMO. If all you need is a certain "distortion signature"......then why make a new amp? There are already amps with that signature.....nothing new there.This is true as well. However the reason to make a new amp is simple: the amps that have had the right distortion signature in the past are all tube amplifiers. None are solid state. Class D offers the ability to have a similar distortion signature, but at a much lower level, easily over a magnitude lower. This allows the amp to also be more neutral. A class D amplifier also does not need regular service, makes a lot less heat and is more compact. If you can offer all those advantages over tubes with the same smoothness and detail thru the mids and highs why on earth would you **not** do that? The trick here is understanding how the measurements correlate with what we hear. This is rarely done in the spec sheets which give you very little information about how the circuit actually measures. This is why I'm talking about the distortion signature since it is something that can be easily measured with today's equipment and its predictable that if you get it right the amp will sound like music to the human ear. Here are some aspects of a proper distortion signature:1) the THD measures the same at 100Hz, 1KHz and 10KHz (usually only the 100Hz distortion is shown in reviews and on spec sheets)2) the primary distortion components should be the 2nd and 3rd harmonics (which are nearly inaudible to the ear) in sufficient amount such that they mask the higher orders. A tube amp makes more higher ordered harmonics than almost any solid state amp, yet sounds smooth because the lower harmonics are masking the presence of the higher harmonics. If you don't get these two things right the amp will not sound musical and organic. The chief engineer at Scott once said "If it measures good and sounds bad, -- it is bad. If it sounds good and measures bad, -- you've measured the wrong thing." It was true when he said it and its still true today. |
The "distortion signature" is just one of an infinite amount of things that effect the sound. So no, no two different implementations of Purifi amps sound the same (I am trying two new mods tomorrow on a Purifi amp and I am sure I will hear two new "different" takes). Its the same with two amps with the same "distortion signature". They will sound different for a thousand different reasons. EVERYTHING makes a difference......I state this over and over again as it is my direct experience of testing parts and execution and circuits for over 45 years. You change the fuse in an amp and you have a completely different sound......even though the "distortion signature" remains the same. Believe what you want. I know what I experience......experience is the only valid path to truth. You must directly listen to something to know anything in audio. "Designed properly".......now that is funny. There is no consensus in high end audio as to what that means. You have the nerd types who say it is in numbers....and you have the subjectivists who believe what they hear.....many of whom....hear different things....he he. In drag racing you can measure the results (elapsed time and speed). In high end audio......what the result is.....is subjective.....totally.....so there is no reference....just beliefs.....some beliefs based on theory and some on experience. I say again.....you must listen to know what is "real" for you. If all you need is a certain "distortion signature"......then why make a new amp? There are already amps with that signature.....nothing new there. We are constantly evolving.....everything is. We discover more and more each day.....new things that cannot be measured that make the sound better. This is good. When we finally can measure all that we hear it will be a miracle of miracles. Of course, our life is already infinitely miraculous. 60 trillion cells in every human body.....dancing in the light of God. No one knows what amp will be best in the end......for there is never an end. I keep modding the Purifi and I will keep modding the GaN amps......they will all keep getting better and better. I believe, that in less than one year.....high end audio will start to have its mind blown......not saying any more. In three years....we will be swimming in the infinite possibilities most have never known. Good stuff....I mean great stuff.....for very little $ coming to your door soon. |
That depends on the distortion signature, which seems to be more important than **how much** distortion is present. If "designed properly" (IOW having a similar distortion signature) I would expect the same sound quality too. This is simply because most of what we audiophiles describe as differences in amplifiers comes down to their distortion signature. |
I wouldn't worry about it any competently built purifi has distortion and noise way below human hearing for that matter so does hypex and benchmark amps. I have tried different purifi, hypex, pascal and other class D amps and I have never heard any difference which stands to reason as speaker distortion is considerably worse. |
mini 5 received today, plugged into system, at first it sounded pretty chalky, but the sound is taking shape after about an hour in... will let it burn in for 24 h and revisit btw - system is bluesound node rca dig out into doge 7 tube dac into XXX amp into Spendor SP100 R2 - streaming qobuz hires - might swap in chord m scaler/hugo tt2 at some point for max transparency, removing any tube beautification planning compare this baby gan with recently acquired agd audion, and longtime reference amps hegel h20, ss arc 100.2 and tubed arc ref75 running kt120’s, all accept balanced-in direct from dac, w/o linestage its a 15 day trial so i won’t get into swapping speakers or sources much, just keep those relatively constant |
@jjss49 I really appreciate your taking the plunge to compare what a low cost GAN amp sounds like versus a much more pricey one. GAN seems to be the new exciting development in amplifiers and I'm definitely interested in hearing someone so experienced and knowledgable like yourself help the rest of us better understand what these new circuits can do at various price points. Is it the GAN tech or is it the implementation? Guess its likely both. It is terrific that someone like you will try and report back on real amps, whereas others here just post and post more about what they think or believe without any real basis. |
I don't think that is a good guess. Ease of heatsinking? Have you seen the tiny heatsinks that people use on the GaN's.Yes, I saw that. And I read that bit, but its really not in conflict with what I mentioned and I agree with it. At 500KHz the extra speed of the GaNFET just isn't a thing- sure you can run a tiny bit less deadtime. But Bruno is running a **ton** of loop feedback (the Purifi module's patents are all about how he does that) so the distortion he's getting really isn't affected by the small difference in deadtime he might get with GaNFETs. Its not cost either since that's not a thing anymore, or wasn't a year ago anyway. That is why I think its something else- and the body diode would be a good example of that. If I were him I don't think I'd be trying to educate anyone on what that's all about in an interview :) |
@mikepowellaudio By the way, my apology if you are one of my customers and I dont recognize your AudioGon Moniker. i am Its interesting also jjss49 how the "Big Bucks" is the entry amp and best value in the AGD line, the Audion. Its a pair of monobloc amps with audio grade power cords in a pelican flight case for only $7500. and this amp competes with some of the greatest designs the globe has to offer , so that’s not Big Bucks comparatively, my purchase of the set of agd’s was the single largest dollar spend on a single item i have made in my 35 years playing with audio gear (not by much, but still...) ... so it is ’big bucks’ to me... i am hardly short on money or choices of where to spend it, it is just that i’ve spent a lifetime earning my money, so i try to spend it wisely (and otherwise support charities and causes i care about) while i certainly have a lot of hifi equipment i have fun playing with, for me, spending 30k on an amp is grossly unwise, and unnecessary, to achieve outstanding sound - i've been at this since my late teens in college, and sometimes, i am prepared to open my wallet to see what is on offer as the market for gear progresses and innovates (and as the hype often ensues) as with other things in life that has gotten me to this point, i trust my own ability to decide, select, compare and assess |
highly unlikely you will find anything for $750 that will even be able to fairly compete. Its even kind of interesting you think its possible which sort of denotes a latent desire to have the $750 sound as good. I guess its a common fantasy.Nobody said they thought a $750 amp would compete with an amp 10x the price — you made that up in your mind somehow. We’re all just wondering how the Mini GaN 5 sounds for only 750 bucks and need other amps to compare it to is all. May be be a dumb question, but couldn’t another designer/manufacturer buy the Purify modules and incorporate GaN devices in an amp on their own? |
I don't think that is a good guess. Ease of heatsinking? Have you seen the tiny heatsinks that people use on the GaN's. Look how tiny the heatsinks are on this new Orchard 250 watt into 8 ohm module are: https://orchardaudio.com/starkrimson-ultra-module picture is at bottom of opening scene.....just scroll through them....you will see. The GaNs are much faster than the mosfet Bruno uses. Here is what Bruno and Lars of Purifi say: https://6moons.com/audioreview_articles/merrill/2/ |
If I had to guess I would say that Bruno prefers the ease of heatsinking his output devices, which is why he does not use GaNFETs. Back about 5 years ago there was a distinct improvement in switching speed offered by GaNFETs but that's all but gone with recent MOSFETs. So these days the design consideration might have more to do with the body diode of the device and how you heatsink it. |
Interesting Proposition. What type of rig will you be comparing on ? By the way, my apology if you are one of my customers and I dont recognize your AudioGon Moniker. If anyone wants to send one of them my way, Id be happy to give it a test run on a $100K plus HiFi Rig . where the AGD exceeds all the other designs Ive tried is not in the frequency domain, thats easy stuff.. Lows mids highs , you either do them well or you dont . Where AGD steps ahead is in realism and Lucidity. I was comparing last night several amplifiers and I could hear the singer moving away from and towards the microphone not audible in the other amps . In a weird way its a subtle difference, but that subtle difference results in a whole other experience not even close the first one. For example the difference between a cracker and a flat noodle , they are both made from the same raw materials and have the subtle difference of moisture content , but the experience when eaten seem like two opposite ends of the spectrum. Something clearly different . This is how GaN from AGD can be described. Whats more is its not subjective . Any true audiophile will prefer the AGD . I have not heard one person to date that liked the sound of what they currently had better than the AGD. Theres nothing not to like, it sounds more real. Its interesting also jjss49 how the "Big Bucks" is the entry amp and best value in the AGD line, the Audion. Its a pair of monobloc amps with audio grade power cords in a pelican flight case for only $7500. and this amp competes with some of the greatest designs the globe has to offer , so that's not Big Bucks comparatively, especially with Merrills GaN at what ? $30K or better ? My point I guess is its highly unlikely you will find anything for $750 that will even be able to fairly compete. Its even kind of interesting you think its possible which sort of denotes a latent desire to have the $750 sound as good. I guess its a common fantasy.. Happy Listening MP |
@jjss49 — unfortunately I haven’t heard any GaN or Purify amps. I’ve got a defunct McCormack DNA-0.5 Rev A amp I was planning on sending to Steve for repairs and/or upgrades (thinking it’s probably the dreaded and fatal input board failure given my unit’s age), but after reading the reviews of these new amps I’m rethinking that now. The Mini GaN 5 was one I was eyeing but looking to hear more real-world feedback before possibly trying one, so obviously I’d be very interested in your impressions especially since you’ve got the Audions as a reference for comparison. Anyway, that’s my story for now. |
@soix --- what gan amps have you personally tried? and what are your thoughts so far i coughed up the big $ and bought a set of agd audions... they are spectacularly good... then on the low end, just for fun, i just ordered a mini gan 5 from tom at class d audio in corona ca... for $750 w 15 day money back trial i figured it is worth hearing what a gan amp just 10% of cost of the other might sound like... we shall see... |
