I'm having a lot of fun wiring speakers together. I have two in series and one running in parralel per channel on one amp at 12 Ohms - all PASSIVE.
The sum sounds more than the parts, if you align things right. I have my cabinets mostly laid on their sides closer to ear level and stacked up in walls of sound.
You could scale this up and the sound would just get bigger and sound better wouldn't it, as long as you kept the load reasonable. |
You could scale this up and the sound would just get bigger and sound better wouldn't it, as long as you kept the load reasonable. No, I don't think so, Roger. The problem that would arise is that the same sound would be arriving at the listener's ears at multiple times, due to the different path lengths to the various speakers, and probably also due to different signal delays within the speakers and their crossover networks. That will degrade the sound as a result of what are known as comb filtering effects. Regards, -- Al |
Almarg, let the man have his fun!
The Braun L200 is plentiful on the used market. I recommend you get a minimum of six (6) pairs (or more) and stack them on their sides such that the tweeters are vertically aligned. You will have a DIY line array. You will have to experiment with whether the tweeters are inside or outside aligned. You could even turn one the L200 pair backwards to generate some rear ambiance soundfield. Wire it up appropriately and run them with the Atmasphere and you will be in audio heaven with a unique system with a capital U. I'm dead serious.
Atmasphere, why don't you build an active system? Team up with someone like CAR and come out with a fully integrated bi/tri-amped, all analog system. Can you imagine the glow coming off six of your mono amps? The price tag would breach $100k, but I think in today's market that could be a positive selling point. Have it go head to head with an MBL or Focal/Naim systems. |
Hi Ralph,
Please refer to these pages, you will find more than a few active loudspeakers which can do 20hz and below in the most conservative sense:
https://pmc-speakers.com/products/consumer/se-series
http://www.atcloudspeakers.co.uk/hi-fi/loudspeakers/tower-series/scm20aslt/
BTW, doing 20hz is not always the most important criteria IMO, for that matter many loudspeakers do that. I agree though that if one is focussed on having a tube amplification then active speakers are not available ready made. |
While many transistor advocates say their amps are neutral, I've yet to hear one that does not impart a coloration- that of brightness and hardness. Ralph, I have owned three, the Class A Clayton M300 and M200 monoblocks and the Acoustic Imagery Atsah Ncore NC1200 monos. Maybe in comparison to certain tubed amplifiers there is a quality that some may call hardness but, in comparison to other SS amplifiers I have owned and heard, those amps mentioned would not be considered hard-sounding. IMO, none of the three would be considered "bright" sounding. Unfortunately, I have yet to hear a perfect amplifier since all I have heard have sonic and operational trade-offs. I have owned some quite good SS Class AB amplifiers that have a hint of the brightness/hardness traits you mentioned but that were otherwise excellent. Since I notice this more after my last three amplifiers being Class A designs, and one Class D, I have wondered if maybe I am now more sensitive to crossover effects in class AB designs. In other words, could the "brightness/hardness" effect you point out be a byproduct of the Class AB design that some of the better designers are able to greatly reduce or even eliminate? |
Al, combo filtering effect can not be ignored and I agree that a homogenous set of speakers would sounds best (on paper), but at least in my case the befits out weighted that particular set back.
Audiophiles bi-amplify. Do they build line array speakers with mismatching parts? For instance, a pair of subs, a pair of mids & a pair of tweets - all from different manufactures?
Is that audio heresy or can that be done the way wine and cheese are matched and paired with each other?
Can you achieve more audio performance by using a line array of speakers than you could with just one speaker?
I think the answer is YES because you can alway take the best and then add just a little bit more to make it better, regardless of what it says on paper. |
Building a Line Array of Speakers might be too much to ask of most home users, but if a speaker builder went that route and allowed the home consumer to choose a line sub, a line mid and a line tweet - instead of putting it all in one box, it would provide for upgradeability in the future and unlimited configurations.
Other manufactures might also jump in and provide even more options. |
BTW, doing 20hz is not always the most important criteria IMO, for that matter many loudspeakers do that.
Agreed, but as a manufacturer with a need for a reference, while that is not the most important criteria, its not acceptable if the bandwidth isn't there. Our amps go to 2Hz with full power and we want to know what's up when we play them. Plus the bass is really nice :) In other words, could the "brightness/hardness" effect you point out be a byproduct of the Class AB design that some of the better designers are able to greatly reduce or even eliminate? 'Brightness and hardness' is a product of trace (0.005%) amounts of distortion, often containing the 7th harmonic. The ear is very sensitive to the 7th harmonic as it uses it (and others) as loudness cues to determine how loud a sound is. The ear/brain system converts all forms of distortion into tonality. That is why an amp can sound bright but measure flat on the bench. |
I'm thinking about ditching my amps and cables and just buying an active speaker with a balanced input. I have a Krell 2250 and a pair of 140 watt Atma-sphere MA-1MKII. I desperately need speakers and cables, but not sure if I want to go through the bother (and expense) of finding the perfect matching set.
Should I go with a speaker & amp that are already matched or keep building my system like a bespoke smorgasbord? Pragmatically it comes down to the implementation of either way more than the inherent virtues of one "principle" alone. On paper the advantages of active (+ DAC/DSP) speakers are rather obvious and appeals to me a lot, and I would indeed love to go that route should the right (speaker-)combination come along (this is a tempting solution, but too expensive for my wallet I'm afraid: http://hometheaterreview.com/meyer-sound-x-10-powered-loudspeakers/), but for now the right speaker-part of the active combo evades me. All things being equal, and at the present DSP-technological state, I'd rather avoid passive cross-overs altogether; going radical about it one could pursue an alternative DIY-solution with the passive speakers fitting ones sonical bill and wreck them apart, more or less - at least as a means to by-pass the passive cross-over, connect each driver to their dedicated amp-channel, and let a DSP handle the cross-over duties. I've heard this conversion (from passive to active DSP) go extremely well in setup of a friend of mine, to the point really where there's no comparison, but it takes skill and patience to get there. Perhaps the active solution is much more of an obvious, preferred choice with cheaper solutions where incredible value can be had in such all-in-one systems (see JBL LSR 305/308, among many others). Have stood at the crossroad of active or passive myself, the former from an outset with my existing speakers, but have chosen to go the latter route based on new, upcoming and highly sensitive speakers (~106-107dB's). I believe both paths would've been exhilarating to try out though - if only one could've. Merging other product categories seems more prudent here, like DAC and preamp for example, and focusing solely on one source (digital, in this case) to max out the fullest potential with the financial means available. Finally then: in your case I'd seek out some potential active and/or otherwise combined solutions, listen to them closely where possible and preferable, and see whether the totality of sonic impressions go beyond that which passive, "discrete" solution can muster. You may find youself surprised, one way or the other. |
" if a speaker builder went that route and allowed the home consumer to choose a line sub, a line mid and a line tweet - instead of putting it all in one box, it would provide for upgradeability in the future and unlimited configurations. "
Upgrade-ability and unlimited configurations can only promise changes, and not better sound quality. |
I will probably get wonked on the head for saying this, but I'm going to make this argument anyway:
A Line Array of speakers is more efficient and makes better use of the amplifier than non-arrayed speaker. Sonic qualities aside the main job of an amp is to move drivers which push air.
Most class A amps convert their power into heat. The bigger the line array, the more the amp can breath and do its job which isn't heating your room.
At every power level you will hear more and appreciate your amp and music more as your line array get bigger. |
zd542, I agree that change for the sake of change alone is not good, but wouldn't you rather have a system that you could grow into as your needs, taste, and budget change? I'm just proposing an alternate path to building a system.
Wouldn't it be nice to upgrade one part of the speaker without having to trash the whole speaker system and start over? |
Chew on this: Those of you with colossal amplifiers running two speaker systems are the sonic equivalent of a Lamborghini on a mini golf course. You still look great at 3 MPH, but you have no idea hood good things get once you get on the autobahn.
Line Array = Autobahn. |
Once upon a time two friends went to a concert, but only had one pair of tickets.
The friend who got in to hear the show sat center stage and listened to beautiful line array of speakers.
The friend who didn't get in also sat center stage, but behind a wall with two pin hole openings for perfect stereo imaging.
Who do you think enjoyed the show more? |
One friend drove a Lamborghini to RMAF and sat in the sweet spot in the best room at the show.
One friend drove a golf cart to RMAF and sat in the parking lot and listened to AM radio.
Who do you think enjoyed the show more?
The guy in the parking lot because it's legal in Colorado and you can't smoke inside.
Uh...what were we talking about, anyway?? |
Which is better?
1. To hear 100% of the sound with only 2% that is perfect or
2. Hear only 2% of the sound perfectly, but miss the other 98%?
Assuming you have enough SPL to fill the room is it better
1. To add another amp and speaker or
2. To buy two more speaker and run them on the amp you have?
Sorry, I was outside. What did you say? |
Try auditioning some of the Meridian line of speakers. Each is right at the front of mixed systems in their price range and are absolute bargains at their used prices.
Meridian have been doing the active thing longer than almost anyone.
The DSP 8000 is truly worked class, the DSP7200 competes with Wilson Sasha/B&W 802 etc and the often overlooked DSP5200 is highly underrated.
Go listen see for yourself. |
"09-30-15: Rogerstillman
zd542, I agree that change for the sake of change alone is not good, but wouldn't you rather have a system that you could grow into as your needs, taste, and budget change? I'm just proposing an alternate path to building a system. "
I already have this. You're assuming a line array is the best way to achieve your goals. It may be for you, and that's perfectly OK.
That said, I'll give you my opinion on this. If you start isolating certain features, giving them more importance over others, you're playing with fire. There's much more going on between the the amp and speakers that are beyond the scope of line array advantages/disadvantages. I would take a balanced approach and consider them all equally.
"Meridian have been doing the active thing longer than almost anyone. The DSP 8000 is truly worked class, the DSP7200 competes with Wilson Sasha/B&W 802 etc and the often overlooked DSP5200 is highly underrated."
I have some experience with Meridian. I've owned some of they're components, and my best friend is a Meridian fanatic. He's a scumbag lawyer and can afford the best stuff they make.
To make a long story short, we got into an argument when I told him my Vandersteen's sound better than his expensive Meridian speakers. They were at least 50k. I offered to put them side by side for comparison, and he agreed. He was also under the assumption that I was going to bring over all my best stuff. Instead, I brought over a pair of Model 2's, just 1 of my Ayre V-5's and my Wadia 302.(I also have an 861SE). Cables were 2 runs of AQ CV-8, Balanced AQ Cheetah, and 2 ESP Essence PC's.
The only things the Meridian could do better was play louder and go deeper in the bass. In every other aspect, we both thought my system was clearly the winner. And the reason I won is because my system had the better matched components. They just weren't inside the speaker. Meridian can't design an amp as good as my Ayre, and speakers as well as Vandersteen. |
I just bought a pair of used Vandersteen 3A Signatures. I have them on my Krell (out of expediency) and love the bass, but I'm not getting a broad soundstage. Once I put my tube gear on that should change.
Anyway, it's a big upgrade for me!
Thanks to everyone for your comments. |
"10-04-15: Rogerstillman
I just bought a pair of used Vandersteen 3A Signatures. I have them on my Krell (out of expediency) and love the bass, but I'm not getting a broad soundstage. Once I put my tube gear on that should change."
I have a pair of Model 3's myself. To get the soundstage you want, keep in mind that all of the components in the system, are equally responsible for this. You can have a bunch of great imaging pieces, but can still mess it up with just 1 poorly matched component. Also, tubes aren't required. The decision to buy a tube amp or preamp should be based on sound quality, not just because its a tube product. The best imaging I've heard from SS is Ayre. That's what I currently use on my 3's. When you are ready to upgrade, demo some Ayre products and see if they are for you.
When you get the speakers, follow the setup instruction listed in the manual. Its very important to do it this way if you want best sound. For cables, AQ Type 6 or Type 8 work very well with your speakers, and they are not expensive. Just make sure you double biwire with 2 separate runs of cable. |
Here's an update:
I just got Paul Spelt's ZERO-Box with a custom built set of ANTICABLES & they are so incredible - even without the 100 hour suggested burn in period.
My Sound Stage just BLEW UP and I now have the system of my dreams!
It was like getting a free upgrade for every component in my system because everything sounds so much better - and that is saying a lot considering the gear I was already using.
My current system looks like this:
Cable Box or Apple t.v. (both using optical outputs)
Cambridge Audio DACMagic (not an expensive piece & probably my next upgrade)
Cary SLP-05
ATMA-SPHERE MA-1MKII rev.2
ZERO-Box
ANTICABLES
Vandersteen 3a Signatures
Life is good @ http://www.zeroimpedance.com |
