For the most part, I think powered speakers are over rated and over priced. I know most people will argue me on that, but if you look at it from a common sense point of view, do you think that whoever builds the amp for your speaker will make one as good as the one you already have? Same thing with whatever speaker you pick. As far as cables go, if you do a good job matching your components, cable choice is easy. I would never let cables be the deciding factor when building a system. If it comes to that, you've made some mistakes that need to be fixed before you continue. |
Maybe if you gave some more info, we may be able to recommend some speakers to consider. |
"But, more importantly is that having the crossover before the amp automatically reduces intermodulation distortion of the speaker system. Each driver in an active speaker will have its own matched amplifier. There is no reason to incur the cost of a general purpose amp that is designed to power all manner of speakers."
That's not true. There's always a cost for singling out 1 specific potential problem or spec, and highlighting it in a way that makes it look like its more important than the others. Following that logic, a cheap pair of active speakers should sound better just because the active nature of the xover, than a cost no object design. IM comes up in all areas of component design, and is not isolated to one specific part. Just using an active speaker will not eliminate IM distortion. It can't.
What makes a great component is the designer; not the design itself. There's a reason most people will buy a Pass or Ayre amp (Or whatever else is equivalent), than settle for a generic powered speaker, active or passive. Better sound quality. Same thing with speakers. I remember the last time you brought this topic up Bob, you mentioned Vandersteen speakers. I forget exactly what you said, but your idea would have made the Vandersteen speaker loose its time and phase characteristics. You didn't have a problem with that. I do, because that's the whole reason you buy them in the first place. Vansersteen goes to great lengths to eliminate FIM, by the way.
I'll ask you the same question that I asked you last time. You couldn't answer it then, and I don't think you can answer it now. Give us an actual example where a specific active speaker, that you recommend, can outperform a separate amp/speaker combo made by top designers in their respected fields? If you'll notice, I'm not putting too many restrictions on what you can come up with, including cost, so it should be an easy question to answer. I've made this comparison many times and have yet to find any evidence that would suggest an active speaker design is superior, or even equal, to a well matched amp/speaker combo. |
"They are carefully matched to achieve maximum performance by design teams with more resources to accomplish that goal than the average audiophile has available. Apparently this is a difficult concept for audiophiles to accept."
That's because you're leaving something out. I have absolutely no doubt that the designers of the active speakers you list, do everything they can to make the best sounding product. Its not that audiophiles won't accept a solution like this just because the speakers are active. For the most part, a decision is made based on sound quality/personal preference. Its entirely possible that even though the speakers look good on paper, a potential buyer just doesn't like them. No different than with any other component. Also, when you say that design teams have more resources to achieve the goal than an average audiophile, I don't see that as being relevant. That statement assumes the buyer and the maker, want the same exact end result. That may not be the case. An audiophile's part in all this, is to evaluate products they are interested in, and then make a choice based on they think sounds the best, and can afford.
The last time this topic came up for debate, I used this same example to explain my position. My personal preference is Vandersteen speakers powered by Ayre electronics. If I wanted to get the equivalent sound from an active speaker, I can't. No active speaker that I know of, even comes close to duplicating that combo's sound. It has nothing to do with me not wanting active speakers. If Ayre and Vandersteen got together made such a speaker, chances are I would buy it.
All this comes down to one idea. And that is, what will make you happy with your system? Different products for different people. That's how its always been, and I don't think it will change anytime soon. |
"Zd, to say that engineering expertise and technical resources is irrelevant is an extreme statement. If high fidelity sound reproduction is the goal, then the manufacturer and the consumer just can't be that far apart."
If that's what you think I meant, I didn't do a good job explaining my point. If I read your post correctly, you said its always beneficial and important for the customer to be as close to the level of the designers technical ability as possible. While it can't hurt, I just don't think its necessary to achieve the best possible results. All designers have a different idea as to what good sound is. That applies to the consumer as well. No one is more capable of building your system than you. Your own technical ability won't have an effect how much you like your system. Listening is the dominate factor. Its no different than saying a race car mechanic needs to be a race car driver himself, or an aircraft engineer has to be able to fly the F-16 he's helping build.
"From an engineering perspective how does R. Vandersteen justify the powered woofers in his upmarket loudspeakers?"
He doesn't have to. He would have to do more explaining if he didn't power his subs. The vast majority of sub's, both internal and stand alone, are powered. Its an industry standard practice. It gives the buyer more options, not less. Powering the bass speaker on something like a Model 5, allows for a much broader range of amp options. A lot of people use low powered tube amps on their 5's. Chances are, those amps wouldn't be a realistic option otherwise.
" Wouldn't the same rationale apply to the midrange and treble drivers?"
It depends on how you look at it, but I would say no. The application is different. Almost all of the musical detail is in the mids and highs. Low frequencies just don't have the same level of resolution. Think about what you go through when setting up a system. To dial in the bass, the main adjustment is to move the speakers around the room until you find the best spot. Mids and highs are different. Things like toe in, back tilt and specific areas of the room, like the first reflection, need to be dealt with. (I understand that there are other factors involved, and maybe even some overlap. Its just not practical to go over every single detail on a forum like this.
"From a marketing perspective it could be sales suicide since audiophiles basically reject fully powered loudspeaker systems. I'm just saying that the rejection is not based upon sound quality, but upon the perceived lack of upgradeability."
That may be the case sometimes, but not always. For he most part, its about sound quality. Your case will apply to people that shortcut the evaluation process. Buying from reviews, no demo..., and other similar short cuts. Others will put the time in to listen and evaluate before making a purchase. In my own experience, I've put many modest component systems next to expensive, active speaker systems, and was able to get much better SQ from the budget system. |
" if a speaker builder went that route and allowed the home consumer to choose a line sub, a line mid and a line tweet - instead of putting it all in one box, it would provide for upgradeability in the future and unlimited configurations. "
Upgrade-ability and unlimited configurations can only promise changes, and not better sound quality. |
"09-30-15: Rogerstillman
zd542, I agree that change for the sake of change alone is not good, but wouldn't you rather have a system that you could grow into as your needs, taste, and budget change? I'm just proposing an alternate path to building a system. "
I already have this. You're assuming a line array is the best way to achieve your goals. It may be for you, and that's perfectly OK.
That said, I'll give you my opinion on this. If you start isolating certain features, giving them more importance over others, you're playing with fire. There's much more going on between the the amp and speakers that are beyond the scope of line array advantages/disadvantages. I would take a balanced approach and consider them all equally.
"Meridian have been doing the active thing longer than almost anyone. The DSP 8000 is truly worked class, the DSP7200 competes with Wilson Sasha/B&W 802 etc and the often overlooked DSP5200 is highly underrated."
I have some experience with Meridian. I've owned some of they're components, and my best friend is a Meridian fanatic. He's a scumbag lawyer and can afford the best stuff they make.
To make a long story short, we got into an argument when I told him my Vandersteen's sound better than his expensive Meridian speakers. They were at least 50k. I offered to put them side by side for comparison, and he agreed. He was also under the assumption that I was going to bring over all my best stuff. Instead, I brought over a pair of Model 2's, just 1 of my Ayre V-5's and my Wadia 302.(I also have an 861SE). Cables were 2 runs of AQ CV-8, Balanced AQ Cheetah, and 2 ESP Essence PC's.
The only things the Meridian could do better was play louder and go deeper in the bass. In every other aspect, we both thought my system was clearly the winner. And the reason I won is because my system had the better matched components. They just weren't inside the speaker. Meridian can't design an amp as good as my Ayre, and speakers as well as Vandersteen. |
"10-04-15: Rogerstillman
I just bought a pair of used Vandersteen 3A Signatures. I have them on my Krell (out of expediency) and love the bass, but I'm not getting a broad soundstage. Once I put my tube gear on that should change."
I have a pair of Model 3's myself. To get the soundstage you want, keep in mind that all of the components in the system, are equally responsible for this. You can have a bunch of great imaging pieces, but can still mess it up with just 1 poorly matched component. Also, tubes aren't required. The decision to buy a tube amp or preamp should be based on sound quality, not just because its a tube product. The best imaging I've heard from SS is Ayre. That's what I currently use on my 3's. When you are ready to upgrade, demo some Ayre products and see if they are for you.
When you get the speakers, follow the setup instruction listed in the manual. Its very important to do it this way if you want best sound. For cables, AQ Type 6 or Type 8 work very well with your speakers, and they are not expensive. Just make sure you double biwire with 2 separate runs of cable. |
