I have had great success ditching the mdf and i replaced the shelves with 1/2 "thick steel then audiopoints ,stand is filled with micro ball bearings on audiopoints again i use them on everything including my furman p2400 which is also outboard on 3/4 "steel with audiopoints same for my outboard power supply from my amp
Any thoughts on a solid hickory platform under my tt
I have access to some beautiful 2" thick hickory butcher block instead of maple any thoughts on vibration control vs maple
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Most anti-vibration systems do indeed convert vibration into heat. It might be helpful to read this article from EAR, a leader in vibration dampening: https://earglobal.com/media/9891/understandingdampingtechniques.pdf With regards to a wooden base, I think you will find that the base will have greater effect if combined with another material such as aluminum or steel. The two layers will have different resonant frequencies and when in contact with each other will rob each other of that energy- the result being that the platform will considerably more 'dead'. The device (DC player, preamp, turntable) should then be rigidly coupled into the platform via points of some sort. This will maximize the effect of the platform. |
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Astro, I see things differently than you in this way: I chose to discuss the subject of this posting from a theoretical point of view, addressing the "why" of isolation. You prefer a statement of how a certain approach or product had what kind of affect on a commenters own system. What lead me to try roller bearings was Barry Diament’s discussion of isolation on his website, not a statement by him about how bearings affected his system. When I read about the theory behind an approach or product, I decide to either give it a try, or not, based on my own personal "sniff" test. Reading someone else say how a product did this or that to their system in florid audiophile terms doesn’t necessarily mean much to me. I mentioned air bearings because I have Townshend Audio Seismic Sink platforms (the original "air" version, not the current "spring" version) under my turntable, CD/SACD player, tube phono pre-amp, tube line-stage pre-amp, and tube power amp. I mentioned roller bearings because I have both Symposium Acoustics and Ingress Engineering bearings under same. Yes, I recommend anyone looking for good isolation consider looking into these products. I wouldn’t dream of describing how they affected the sound of my system, but by discussing isolation itself I attempted to say why they might be of benefit in someone else’s. |
astro58go 37 posts 07-03-2016 2:03pm astro wrote, "geoffkait, It seems to me that my postings above would give you a (reason) to look back at the comments you made." You haven’t told me what’s bothering you yet. I gave you every opportunity. Apparently you’d rather play games. Astro wrote, "Why am I seemingly now, somehow, a person who has posted favorable results of your product, now, under scrutiny (by you) to prove what you previously said?" What did I previously say? Is it a secret? Astro also wrote, "The proof is in the reading of (your past posts). I’ve posted where your remarks could easily be found and earlier you seemed to admit by you stating "good catch". It’s not up to me to do more than what I’ve thoughtfully posted. Being a fan of your own products, you still want to make me prove what you said in the past and then make me prove how it’s relevant to this discussion? When you could easily look into this yourself, instead, you choose to put some sort of, as you state, "drama" imposed by me?" I already addressed your weird questions. Save the drama for yo mama. Astro then wrote, "As a prospective consumer of your products, this action by you, that could have been abated by you, would make me think twice about purchasing from you." Don’t worry, I won’t be selling to you again. Actually I don't sell to anyone involved in threads of mine. And, finally, Astro wrote, "I’m out!" I’m down with that. geoff kait machina dynamica no goats no glory |
geofflait, It seems to me that my postings above would give you a (reason) to look back at the comments you made. Why am I seemingly now, somehow, a person who has posted favorable results of your product, now, under scrutiny (by you) to prove what you previously said? The proof is in the reading of (your past posts). I've posted where your remarks could easily be found and earlier you seemed to admit by you stating "good catch". It's not up to me to do more than what I've thoughtfully posted. Being a fan of your own products, you still want to make me prove what you said in the past and then make me prove how it's relevant to this discussion? When you could easily look into this yourself, instead, you choose to put some sort of, as you state, "drama" imposed by me? As a prospective consumer of your products, this action by you, that could have been abated by you, would make me think twice about purchasing from you. I'm out! |
Hello Oleschool, Let’s go for it! Your Marshall has a loudspeaker system along with the valves support so in theory your predetermined anti-vibration approach to audio reproduction should also work with stage gear as well? Why not test the actual live dynamic which is you and your instrument. Put a pro-vibration Sistrum Platform to the real test - under both the Peavey and Marshall amplifiers. The Peavey will surprise you and the Marshall will put you in a state where you have never been as a player. Both amps will achieve greater attack, extended decays and more sustain than you ever experienced prior. You will easily take both amps to a higher level of volume as well and will hear more of the Marshall along with a lot more of what your personal talents are actually capable of in performance - of this we are extremely confident. Based on our experience spending quite a few years working with top musicians in both electronic and acoustic instrument mediums, the winner of the two formats can and will easily be determined by your own fingertips, gut feel and ears. Invite a few players over for testing as they too will enjoy the event. There is no difference between stage amplification, loudspeaker s and hi-fi gear as they all function the same and relate to the same sciences of audio reproduction. The only change for this test is the source. You will easily determine if you prefer live dynamics from high speed energy movement or isolated dead harmonics. You will no longer make decisions based on a couple of meaningless foot stomping tests, the rhetoric of some self proclaimed experts on vibration and/or shilling manufacturers who continuously propose never ending arguments and of course those people who always avoid answering direct questions on Internet forums. If you know any cellist, upright or electric bass players who are interested in testing our products we would like to hear from them too. One thing is for certain, you will know if anti- or the pro-vibration approach to vibration management is the finer. We learned through our experience, you cannot fool a musician. Call me personally or write us from our website so we can arrange the test. Robert Maicks Star Sound |
astro58go 31 posts 07-03-2016 1:09pm "To address the question I had above... You made a comment on TT Isolation thread, remarking about having things moving in several opposing direction/motions." Sorry, but that doesn’t help me. I post frequently on isolation threads of which there are a bunch. If I said something that you think conflicts with something else I said I’m afraid you’ll have to be a little more specific. "When I made reference to that thread, your first remark was "good catch". You later posted "I dunno, what did I say in that thread"?" I originally thought you were referring to a remark about why the "twist" direction for isoaltion systems is problematic. At this point in time I still don’t know what comment that has upset you. Astro also wrote, "Some of us, including me who wonder, may find (your own) statements in conflict." Actually it might only be you. :-). Just joking. Astro also wrote, "Once you seemed to recognize my remembering something you said, then you ask (me) what you said. This is very confusing. "(I like your products that I’ve tried. I’m not bashing. I am just asking for clarity? To at once make a remark, seemingly admitting what you said in a recent thread, then asking me later, to tell you what you said in that thread is remarkable.)" OK, why don’t you post the entire comment your referring to so at least I know what in tarnation you’re referring to. I don’t actually see any reason for all the drama. If I've made some huge error or made conflicting statements I promise I'll eat a bug. cheers, Geoff at Machina Dynamica |
geoffkait, To address the question I had above... You made a comment on TT Isolation thread, remarking about having things moving in several opposing direction/motions. When I made reference to that thread, your first remark was "good catch". You later posted "I dunno, what did I say in that thread"? Some of us, including me who wonder, may find (your own) statements in conflict. Once you seemed to recognize my remembering something you said, then you ask (me) what you said. This is very confusing. (I like your products that I've tried. I'm not bashing. I am just asking for clarity? To at once make a remark, seemingly admitting what you said in a recent thread, then asking me later, to tell you what you said in that thread is remarkable.) |
Also, to show I'm a believer in Geoffkait's springs, in addition to my tt set-up. I've incorporated them in my amp/power conditioner/rack set-up. I am using a Solid Steel 5.2 rack, dedicated to my amp and my Hydra. I use a 3" maple platform with 3 Mapleshade carpet piercing footers, then I've drilled 1/8" deep mating holes for another 1& 1/2" maple platform to accommodate the (4) Super Stiff Springs. This is my support structure for the Solis Steel rack. (Still, within my rack, I have a platform for these components and high quality footers.) Upon making these changes to accommodate the (SSPs), my system evolved tremendously! I'm thinking about doing a similar thing with my dual subs. |
I was just making a rough calculation, in my head, regarding the money I've invested in audio over the last 30 years. For what it's worth: Components/cables vs. Isolation = pretty much 50/50 Acoustic treatments, much less but have a MAJOR effect, way beyond their relative price points. The effect on musical satisfaction is out of this world when done right. Music vs. equipment, right now, probably 60/40, leaning towards equipment. This will surely change in the opposite direction. Happy listening all. |
oleschool, I regret, the remark I made earlier, "I know what I'm talking about". I should have said, I know what I'm hearing in my system based on trying various things with my wall mount set-up: VPI Classic 3 Sig SE 3" maple platform Symposium Ultra Stillpoints Ultra SS Edensound Terestone footers Machina Dynamica Super Stiff Springs MANA Acoustics wall mounting system, (has extreme flexibility, can swap in and out various aftermarket footers such as Stillpoints, Edensound, spikes, etc....) a combination of all the above, switched in and out. I do consider the springs a "must have" for a wall mounting system. I've personally always found that with tts especially, "life made easier" by having the flexibility to level the tt without all of the hassle of, in the case of the springs, finding the exact positioning underneath the tt for the correct level to be achieved. It could be argued either way as to what is best, a platform under the tt or just the springs. Much more flexibility using a platform. I've made my choice and I'm very happy with it. |
oleschool, Been following this thread reading the expected mix of suggestions. I replaced the footers on my VPI Classic with the Mapleshade brass footers. The table is on a 4" maple slab with the rubber/cork blocks supporting the slab. The Mapleshade philosophy is correct/incorrect as the rest of the recommendations, but I chose it because of another concern. The stock footers IMO ruin the look of the table. The stock footers look cheesy and cheapen the appearance of an otherwise sharp looking table design. I paid with my hard cash, so I expect my gear to sound AND look good. Sonic improvements are subtle and subjective, but can be noticed if you can A/B a music passage for 15 seconds with the stock setup then IMMEDIATELY place footers and the 40 pound slab underneath the table and play that same passage. In other words, its kinda tough to really hear dramatic results. I THINK there is some sort of added overall "realness" to both ends of the sonic spectrum particularly tightening up of the bass notes of an upright jazz bass or kick drum in a rock tune. Pricey, but so is anything in this hobby. What did you end up doing? |
oleschool OP 119 posts 07-02-2016 7:41pm Geoff As opposed to leaving the original feet to platform then your springs ? I think the springs would also be interesting under my sub . Again will the carpet and padding pose a problem for the springs? My sub is 38lbs if the original feet are not springy they can be left on. Two springy things used together interfere w/ each other. Like a car going down the road with two shock absorbers for each wheel connected in series, it would be a very bumpy ride. Same goes for springs on carpet. If it were me I would use spikes capable of piercing the carpet/pad to support a maple board, then place the springs on the board. |
Astro thanks . I was under the belief this forum discussion i started would give me some insight on what others are using over the years . Some tweeks are well " too out there for me " but isolating vibration from my turntable is not nor is adding sound deadning in my room or studio or upgrading cables etc to a point . I never understand why some of the " hyper elite" are so judgmental nor the novice are so unwilling to try things and decide for themselves . Perfect example does my tt sound better when it is isolated better . Yes ive proven it . Do my spkr sound better firmly planted .yes ive proven it . Does my digital sound better with a better cable .. Yes ive proven it . Does my hollowbody gretch sound different then my prs mcarty yes. My tube marshall over a peavy again yes .. Thanks for your input |
Ht thanks for your input .. I asked the question and started this discussion of which many people voiced there opinions . I am a musician of over 30 yrs and been into audio gear for longer . I'm a big boy and have made my share of mistakes with snake oil . I have personnally heard changes using different tweeks ie cables iso ac lines etc . So i do not agree with your opinion nor that of many others here at times .You have spoken your point and beliefs thank you for your insight . There is no need really for anymore bashing. You can start your own forum for that if you wish .. |
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oleschool OP 116 posts 07-02-2016 4:19pm I will get a weight on my sub and i am gonna try your setup on my classic .. Just in case it’s not obvious the bottom of the TT would need to be perfectly flat and uniform to be able to accommodate the springs. Otherwise, as the other dude observed, you will need a board between the TT and the springs. One more thing, it’s probably best to remove the feet from the turntable if you use a board between the TT and the springs since it’s not a good idea to have two springy systems in series. If it were me I'd interface the TT to the board with cones, say DH Cones. cheers |
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astro58go 21 posts 07-02-2016 1:26pm Can you explain your last remark in "layman's" terms? Thanks. There are six degrees of freedom or directions of motion. Vertical (y), two horizontal (x and z) and the three rotational directions, one around each axis. The two rotational directions around x, z axes I call rock and rock and the twist direction is around the vertical y axis. |
oleschool OP 114 posts 07-02-2016 1:42pm i'm interested geoff ,as for my classsic i would remove my feet and place the springs under? How do i address leveling ?. I am also considering trying these under my sub any thoughts ... You might have to remove the feet. The springs can be moved by hand so absolute level is a snap. Under the sub is an excellent idea. For really heavy subs the Super Stiff Springs are the ticket. |
astro58go 14 posts 07-02-2016 9:59am foq , has some fairly new "ball-in-cup" devices made out of different materials that should be well worth checking out. Pricey but very effective from what I’ve been told. I like mixing and matching. Roller bearing or ball in cup devices with springs or the new bio micro g. Better isolation in more directions of motion. Rock and roll. Twist and shout. |
bdp, I appreciate your research and your arguments for one way or another. Having said that, they (are) just that, since, and correct me if I'm wrong, you have not tried any of these items in your system? I've always found that no matter how much science backs up one theory or how much a manufacturer backs up their own theory/product, it really doesn't matter until you try it out for yourself in your own system/environment. Then you can confidently report on how it sounds in your specific system. |
oleschool---theaudiotweak’s argument promoting the notion of transferring energy from one object into another of higher mass via hard cones or spikes---the "mechanical diode" theory, wherein energy coming from a source component is transferred through a "one-way" energy path (the cones or spikes) into the higher mass of a stand, or floor, or whatever---can be, and has been, shown to be a myth. As Max Townshend explains and demonstrates in his You Tube videos, any object that can transmit energy in one direction can, and does, transmit it in the other direction just as easily. The idea of cones or spikes being isolators is an incorrect one; they transmit energy up through them as well as down out of them---up from your turntable’s support, through the cones or spikes, and into your tables plinth. They are couplers, the exact opposite of what you want in a turntable support. You want isolation---from the Earth’s seismic activity, from street traffic, from nearby construction, from your home’s heating and cooling system, from the transformers in your amps, from the vibrations created in your room from music playing, and from what is right under your table---it's shelf. You want a very low frequency low-pass mechanical filter under your table---springs, air bearing, ball bearing, etc. For a while people were using lossy rubber isolators---Sorbothane, Neoprene, Navcom. Their failing is in having too high an effective filter frequency---in the audible range, creating "spongy" bass and soft transients, and in being non-linear---they treat different frequencies differently, making their sound unpredictable. |
oleschool wrote, "If my classic is roughly 50 lbs what springs should i try?" The Baby Promethean Mini Isolators are for moderate weight components. 5 springs for 50 lb, about 10 lb per spring. The new Super Stiff Springs are for very heavy components, 4 springs for components 75-150 lb. All springs $12 each. All springs are cryo’d for superior performance. All of these springs are about 1" compressed height. And in many if not most cases they can be placed directly under components. geoff kait machina dynamica |
Wow Ht 1st off this is the anolgue forum .. Digital is over that way 👈 . I have digital also . A pretty decent digital at that ,and they isolate digital dac and transports too ( all gear )and it also makes a difference .. We all have opinions i do not agree with yours .. And personnally 98% of what i listen to is pre 1990 ✊ |
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Interesting conversation. Geoff i read your entire website .. You have some tweeks for sure ! If my classic is roughly 50 lbs what springs should i try ?. I saw light and heavy spring ? I am interested in your springs and seeing your platform . I can honestly say i dont have the skillset to comment on this level .It seems as though you have quite the credentials , I have had iso platforms and most types of iso over the years . I have not tried springs . I almost bought a tnt srung table awhile back .. Thanks to all for there comments i enjoy reading this thread . |
Geoff, The conversion of energy to heat you profess appears to be a prime working model for the anti-vibration belief camp. I ‘never stated’ anything in our previous discussions about Heat so this so called heat maybe what is generated from your model but not from mine or others of the pro-vibration group. The only heat generated concerning me is when you put words in my mouth and publicize it in your rhetoric. Heat generated in your model is a disruptive byproduct resulting in an extremely sluggish process of managing vibration. Similar to musical instruments, we have found that high speed resonance transfer delivers a livelier musical sound quality regardless of your many prohibiting quotes and public mentoring regarding theories relating to heat conversion. I find your methods do not and cannot discern between good vibes and bad...or if there are any. Certain wave forms occur in all audio components, agreed? These are commonly known as compound waves where ‘interfering energy’ occurs. The selection of materials you have chosen multiplies these compound waves resulting in greater heat buildup and a much greater loss in component operational efficiency. The materials used in the majority of your discussions and products are inherently nonlinear due to their varying chemical makeup and multiple shapes. They lack direct signal pathways resulting in constant speed changes and in my opinion are ‘old school’ types of geometric design. Do you agree that materials have signal pathways where every chosen material and shape has a voice in your sound system? We do too. Have you ever applied your methods for a tympani drum placed on a giant sandbox or placed an upright bass or cello on a sheet of Sorbothane supported by springs and played? If you can predict the results, what would the temperature rise across the surface of the instrument be as the vibration is very slowly, bit by bit, converted to heat? Would this temperature change result in better sound and remain musical without altering the character of the instrument? I have removed the rubber materials from the mentioned instruments and replaced those with materials and shapes that conduct energy and couple that vibration to the higher mass of the stage floor. These instruments are now ‘direct coupled’ to surface boundaries and measure an acoustic gain of .5 db to 2.5 db. No energy is lost through those slower methodologies of heat conversion although I never attempted to measure a heat rise, as in theory your doctrine does. You always talk about heat and when you return comment with your torturous forms of putting words in the mouths of others… Please, Answer me this: What is the conversion ratio for changing vibration to heat? What is the reference in real time for this conversion of energy forms to take place?Can you display the instantaneous heat rise of a component when vibration is converted to heat? How is that done and with what measuring tool is used? The products we offer at Star Sound provide a simple, direct orderly pathway for ‘interfering energy’ to run at high speed to the higher mass of ground. We offer the same technical approach for musical instruments that result in providing musicians a higher level of sound quality. We prefer to maintain energy rather than burn it. Tom |