inna
1,969 posts
06-20-2016 2:34am
"It appears that unlike cables audiophiles just don’t experiment with this. It is kind of surprising because the difference may not be subtle, especially when comparing maple to exotic woods."
Actually audiophiles experiment a lot with various woods as well as many other materials. From maple to cherry to balsa to Mpingo wood to bamboo to walnut to spruce to Baltic birch plywood and others. From Corian to high density fiberboard to laboratory grade granite to glass to bluestone to marble to aluminum and plexiglass as well as various combinations thereof. And in thicknesses from 1/4" to 4".
Geoff Kait
machinadynamica.com
no goats no glory |
Bdp24 wrote,
"What’s so special about Maple? The best drum shells are made of Maple because of it’s resonance and long sustain, not what I want in a support structure for my table!"
Actually that’s why you DO want maple as a support structure for your table. It’s the natural musicality of maple that makes it such a good material for all sorts of isolation and support projects, such as Mapleshade racks and stands and my own Nimbus sub Hertz platform as well as musical instruments. It's been used by luthiers for centuries. Hel-looo! It’s musical. It’s magic. I prefer grade AAA white maple.
geoff kait
machina dramatics
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"But i am searching out granite, corian or wood options(honestly i would perfer it to be black so i may stain or paint it ).I have 6"thick walls and a steel wallmount stand with massive isolation..my floors are rock solid i can have my table on top of my stand shelf mdf (spiked and filled with sand) and jump on my floor and nothing comes through my table.with it on the wall i could sit on the shelf."
As fate would have it the Earth's crust motion forces the entire building to shake and vibrate like a rug being shaken out, such that even heroic attempts to stabilize and keep everything "rock solid" actually exacerbate the situation. Since isolation can be defined by the "ease of motion" in the direction of the external force, say the vertical and the horizontal directions, for example. This ease of motion concept is actually the opposite approach from the "rock solid" approach. The most common ease of motion approach for component isolation is mass on spring. I have used laboratory black granite mounted on stiff springs though you might have to look high and low for a large laboratory granite slab. Bluestone is much easier to find in say 3" thickness and works well with or without springs.
geoff kait
machina dynamica
advanced audio concepts
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oleschool OP
93 posts
06-23-2016 11:48am
I will check it out . I am not having any problems with vibration that i can discern .. I am still using my stock classic feet and my wood is on spikes then wall mounted obviously sound travels everwhere but i’m not experiencing any audible vibrations ..
That’s what is so insidious. Everything sounds fine. There doesn’t have to be any telltale sign or giveaway that vibration, this very low frequency vibration I’m referring to, is an issue. Systems can still sound quite good even without vibration isolation. But everything's relative.
Cheers |
Ole school wrote,
"At some point isn’t the vibration going to travel onto the cantilever or arm just through the air?"
excellent question. The acoustic waves traveling through the air don’t matter because speakers, even with big subwoofers usually cannot generate frequencies low enough to excite the cartridge or the tonearm, which are generally designed with resonant frequencies circa 10-12 Hz. Whereas seismic type vibrations with very low frequencies, including 10-12 Hz, can easily excite the cartridge and tonearm.
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bdp24
1,363 posts
06-25-2016 6:29am
"The anti-high mass proponents will tell you that those designs don't "block vibrations", they just move them to a different frequency (lower) and transmit them longer---in other words, ring longer at a lower frequency for a longer length of time. That's why that crowd in England (all through the 80's and 90's) advanced the notion of very low mass, very stiff supports for turntables, such as Torlyte.
Max Townshend (and Audiogon's own Geoffkait---see above) will tell you that what's needed is a high-pass mechanical filter with as low a resonant frequency as possible. Do yourself a favor and watch the couple of videos on You Tube of Max demonstrating the effects of his Seismic Pod. It's an eye opener!"
Thanks for the comment however I believe you probably meant, "..what's needed is a low-pass mechanical filter with as low a resonant frequency as possible."
Cheers,
geoff kait
machina dynamica
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Bdp24 wrote,
"Right you are Geoff. Is 180 degrees off close ;-) ? To state it again, what is needed under a turntable (or CD player, or tube electronics) is not a piece of wood (or whatever) with which to "tune" the entire LP player (what a "primitive" idea!), but a low-pass mechanical filter with as low a resonant frequency as possible (3Hz, tops). That’s what the Minus K platforms are, what the tables made for medical microscopes are, and what the Townshend Pod is."
Yes, the tried and true mass-on-spring devices are required for real isolation, Townshend was one of the very first with his Seismic Sink 20 years ago, and Bright Star had the sand box device which is a little different idea and he came out later with an air spring based stand. The super tricky negative stiffness machine Minus K used to be the Newport Corp.'s Sub Hertz Platform before it got appropriated for audiophile use. Vibraplane is still going strong after what, twenty years? What I have in mind currently is something akin to the sandbox contraption except I’m using a bed of perfect roundness diamond hardness super micro size glass spheres for more effective and rapid dissipation of energy.
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theaudiotweak
1,349 posts
06-26-2016 5:13pm
"I have been working with methods to reduce or eliminate interfering energy which is the result of a wave passing thru a solid material. All things in audio have these waves which are not directly of the compression type. A reduction in the interfering wave energy results in greater amplitude of the primary wave. You cannot achieve this benefit in a so called damped or isolated system as it only generates more interfering energy."
Many isolation and damping techniques are energy conversion type systems, that’s true. But what your blanket statement overlooks or ignores, or so it would appear, is that when mechanical energy (mechanical or acoustic energy) is converted to heat (when WORK is performed using the FORCE of the vibration) the HEAT thus created is not deleterious to sound quality. I.e., heat is not an "interfering energy" as you claim, at least as far as sound quality is concerned. Sandbox isolation and constrained layer damping are examples of systems that convert (unwanted) mechanical energy to heat. Dismissing damping and isolation systems because they generate "interfering energy" doesn’t make sense. As Judge Judy says, if it doesn’t make sense it’s not true.
cheers,
geoff kait
machina dynamica
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oleschool OP
107 posts
06-28-2016 11:24pm
geoff
are you offering feet at this time?
I do not offer feet, what I do offer is cryo'd high carbon steel springs for isolation and will soon be offering a new isolation stand for CD players, etc that employs a bed of precision glass microspheres.
geoff kait
machina dynamica
advanced audio concepts
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oleschool OP
108 posts
06-29-2016 7:17pm
Geoff.
Where can i see these ? ..Pics etc
i will ill post pics of the new iso stands in a couple weeks on my website. pics of my cryo'd springs including the new Super Stiff Springs are posted on my website.
geoff kait
machinadynamica.com
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Tom, while I admire to a certain extent the heroic effort you spent in writing that longish essay I found so many contradictions and mischaracterizations of what I said and Strawman arguments I hardly know where to begin. So, at least for now, I won't begin.
cheers,
Geoff Kait
machina dynamica
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oleschool wrote,
"If my classic is roughly 50 lbs what springs should i try?"
The Baby Promethean Mini Isolators are for moderate weight components. 5 springs for 50 lb, about 10 lb per spring. The new Super Stiff Springs are for very heavy components, 4 springs for components 75-150 lb. All springs $12 each. All springs are cryo’d for superior performance. All of these springs are about 1" compressed height. And in many if not most cases they can be placed directly under components.
geoff kait
machina dynamica
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astro58go
14 posts
07-02-2016 9:59am
foq , has some fairly new "ball-in-cup" devices made out of different materials that should be well worth checking out. Pricey but very effective from what I’ve been told.
I like mixing and matching. Roller bearing or ball in cup devices with springs or the new bio micro g. Better isolation in more directions of motion. Rock and roll. Twist and shout. |
astro58go
15 posts
07-02-2016 12:26pm
geoffkait,
How do you correlate your remarks you made in the "TT Isolation" thread on 03/07/2016, and the remark above? Thanks.
Good catch. One should not isolate in the twist direction for TT.
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oleschool OP
114 posts
07-02-2016 1:42pm
i'm interested geoff ,as for my classsic i would remove my feet and place the springs under? How do i address leveling ?. I am also considering trying these under my sub any thoughts ...
You might have to remove the feet. The springs can be moved by hand so absolute level is a snap. Under the sub is an excellent idea. For really heavy subs the Super Stiff Springs are the ticket. |
astro58go
21 posts
07-02-2016 1:26pm
Can you explain your last remark in "layman's" terms? Thanks.
There are six degrees of freedom or directions of motion. Vertical (y), two horizontal (x and z) and the three rotational directions, one around each axis. The two rotational directions around x, z axes I call rock and rock and the twist direction is around the vertical y axis. |
astro58go
24 posts
07-02-2016 2:58pm
OK?? How does this response plus your response in the thread addressed above make sense to all of us "earthlings"?
I dunno. What did I say in that thread?
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oleschool OP
116 posts
07-02-2016 4:19pm
I will get a weight on my sub and i am gonna try your setup on my classic ..
Just in case it’s not obvious the bottom of the TT would need to be perfectly flat and uniform to be able to accommodate the springs. Otherwise, as the other dude observed, you will need a board between the TT and the springs. One more thing, it’s probably best to remove the feet from the turntable if you use a board between the TT and the springs since it’s not a good idea to have two springy systems in series. If it were me I'd interface the TT to the board with cones, say DH Cones.
cheers
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oleschool OP
119 posts
07-02-2016 7:41pm
Geoff
As opposed to leaving the original feet to platform then your springs ? I think the springs would also be interesting under my sub . Again will the carpet and padding pose a problem for the springs? My sub is 38lbs
if the original feet are not springy they can be left on. Two springy things used together interfere w/ each other. Like a car going down the road with two shock absorbers for each wheel connected in series, it would be a very bumpy ride. Same goes for springs on carpet. If it were me I would use spikes capable of piercing the carpet/pad to support a maple board, then place the springs on the board. |
astro58go
31 posts
07-03-2016 1:09pm
"To address the question I had above...
You made a comment on TT Isolation thread, remarking about having things moving in several opposing direction/motions."
Sorry, but that doesn’t help me. I post frequently on isolation threads of which there are a bunch. If I said something that you think conflicts with something else I said I’m afraid you’ll have to be a little more specific.
"When I made reference to that thread, your first remark was "good catch". You later posted "I dunno, what did I say in that thread"?"
I originally thought you were referring to a remark about why the "twist" direction for isoaltion systems is problematic. At this point in time I still don’t know what comment that has upset you.
Astro also wrote,
"Some of us, including me who wonder, may find (your own) statements in conflict."
Actually it might only be you. :-). Just joking.
Astro also wrote,
"Once you seemed to recognize my remembering something you said, then you ask (me) what you said.
This is very confusing.
"(I like your products that I’ve tried. I’m not bashing. I am just asking for clarity? To at once make a remark, seemingly admitting what you said in a recent thread, then asking me later, to tell you what you said in that thread is remarkable.)"
OK, why don’t you post the entire comment your referring to so at least I know what in tarnation you’re referring to. I don’t actually see any reason for all the drama. If I've made some huge error or made conflicting statements I promise I'll eat a bug.
cheers,
Geoff at Machina Dynamica
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astro58go
37 posts
07-03-2016 2:03pm
astro wrote,
"geoffkait, It seems to me that my postings above would give you a (reason) to look back at the comments you made."
You haven’t told me what’s bothering you yet. I gave you every opportunity. Apparently you’d rather play games.
Astro wrote,
"Why am I seemingly now, somehow, a person who has posted favorable results of your product, now, under scrutiny (by you) to prove what you previously said?"
What did I previously say? Is it a secret?
Astro also wrote,
"The proof is in the reading of (your past posts). I’ve posted where your remarks could easily be found and earlier you seemed to admit by you stating "good catch". It’s not up to me to do more than what I’ve thoughtfully posted. Being a fan of your own products, you still want to make me prove what you said in the past and then make me prove how it’s relevant to this discussion? When you could easily look into this yourself, instead, you choose to put some sort of, as you state, "drama" imposed by me?"
I already addressed your weird questions. Save the drama for yo mama.
Astro then wrote,
"As a prospective consumer of your products, this action by you, that could have been abated by you, would make me think twice about purchasing from you."
Don’t worry, I won’t be selling to you again. Actually I don't sell to anyone involved in threads of mine.
And, finally, Astro wrote,
"I’m out!"
I’m down with that.
geoff kait
machina dynamica
no goats no glory
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