Geoff.
Where can i see these ? ..Pics etc
Where can i see these ? ..Pics etc
Any thoughts on a solid hickory platform under my tt
I have access to some beautiful 2" thick hickory butcher block instead of maple any thoughts on vibration control vs maple
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oleschool OP 107 posts 06-28-2016 11:24pm geoff are you offering feet at this time? I do not offer feet, what I do offer is cryo'd high carbon steel springs for isolation and will soon be offering a new isolation stand for CD players, etc that employs a bed of precision glass microspheres. geoff kait machina dynamica advanced audio concepts |
theaudiotweak 1,349 posts 06-26-2016 5:13pm "I have been working with methods to reduce or eliminate interfering energy which is the result of a wave passing thru a solid material. All things in audio have these waves which are not directly of the compression type. A reduction in the interfering wave energy results in greater amplitude of the primary wave. You cannot achieve this benefit in a so called damped or isolated system as it only generates more interfering energy." Many isolation and damping techniques are energy conversion type systems, that’s true. But what your blanket statement overlooks or ignores, or so it would appear, is that when mechanical energy (mechanical or acoustic energy) is converted to heat (when WORK is performed using the FORCE of the vibration) the HEAT thus created is not deleterious to sound quality. I.e., heat is not an "interfering energy" as you claim, at least as far as sound quality is concerned. Sandbox isolation and constrained layer damping are examples of systems that convert (unwanted) mechanical energy to heat. Dismissing damping and isolation systems because they generate "interfering energy" doesn’t make sense. As Judge Judy says, if it doesn’t make sense it’s not true. cheers, geoff kait machina dynamica |
I have been working with methods to reduce or eliminate interfering energy which is the result of a wave passing thru a solid material. All things in audio have these waves which are not directly of the compression type. A reduction in the interfering wave energy results in greater amplitude of the primary wave. You cannot achieve this benefit in a so called damped or isolated system as it only generates more interfering energy. Tom |
Bdp24 wrote, "Right you are Geoff. Is 180 degrees off close ;-) ? To state it again, what is needed under a turntable (or CD player, or tube electronics) is not a piece of wood (or whatever) with which to "tune" the entire LP player (what a "primitive" idea!), but a low-pass mechanical filter with as low a resonant frequency as possible (3Hz, tops). That’s what the Minus K platforms are, what the tables made for medical microscopes are, and what the Townshend Pod is." Yes, the tried and true mass-on-spring devices are required for real isolation, Townshend was one of the very first with his Seismic Sink 20 years ago, and Bright Star had the sand box device which is a little different idea and he came out later with an air spring based stand. The super tricky negative stiffness machine Minus K used to be the Newport Corp.'s Sub Hertz Platform before it got appropriated for audiophile use. Vibraplane is still going strong after what, twenty years? What I have in mind currently is something akin to the sandbox contraption except I’m using a bed of perfect roundness diamond hardness super micro size glass spheres for more effective and rapid dissipation of energy. |
Right you are Geoff. Is 180 degrees off close ;-) ? To state it again, what is needed under a turntable (or CD player, or tube electronics) is not a piece of wood (or whatever) with which to "tune" the entire LP player (what a "primitive" idea!), but a low-pass mechanical filter with as low a resonant frequency as possible (3Hz, tops). That’s what the Minus K platforms are, what the tables made for medical microscopes are, and what the Townshend Pod is. Oleschool---The Townshend Pods are available singly. You can get the Townshend Seismic Platform with it’s four corner Pods if you want, but it’s cheaper to get just the Pods. With a solid-plinth table such as the Classic, the Platform is not required, and three or four Pods is substantially cheaper than the Platform. If the wallmount is like the Target and Solid Steel with which I’m familiar, use the shelf that comes with it, using three or four Pods in place of the Classic’s four feet. The Pods are available rated for different loads, the internal springs being optimized for varying weights. Three will do, Max says four are better. They seem overpriced to me, but whatta ya gonna do?! One thing you can do is first try Geoffkait’s springs---they too look good, though not as sophisticated as the Townshend. Check them out on Geoff’s site. Another option is the replacement part for the Classic’s foot offered by Symposium Acoustics. VPI owners who have tried it seem very satisfied with the improvement it provides. |
I will ...i have a very rigid wallmount and am ready to install whatever on top of it and under my table i know i may sound cheap but i really dont want to spend more then 500 on the platform new or even better used .. I would rather spend the money on lp . My tt sounds great or great to me already .i am moving it from my stand to my wall |
bdp24 1,363 posts 06-25-2016 6:29am "The anti-high mass proponents will tell you that those designs don't "block vibrations", they just move them to a different frequency (lower) and transmit them longer---in other words, ring longer at a lower frequency for a longer length of time. That's why that crowd in England (all through the 80's and 90's) advanced the notion of very low mass, very stiff supports for turntables, such as Torlyte. Max Townshend (and Audiogon's own Geoffkait---see above) will tell you that what's needed is a high-pass mechanical filter with as low a resonant frequency as possible. Do yourself a favor and watch the couple of videos on You Tube of Max demonstrating the effects of his Seismic Pod. It's an eye opener!" Thanks for the comment however I believe you probably meant, "..what's needed is a low-pass mechanical filter with as low a resonant frequency as possible." Cheers, geoff kait machina dynamica |
The anti-high mass proponents will tell you that those designs don't "block vibrations", they just move them to a different frequency (lower) and transmit them longer---in other words, ring longer at a lower frequency for a longer length of time. That's why that crowd in England (all through the 80's and 90's) advanced the notion of very low mass, very stiff supports for turntables, such as Torlyte. Max Townshend (and Audiogon's own Geoffkait---see above) will tell you that what's needed is a high-pass mechanical filter with as low a resonant frequency as possible. Do yourself a favor and watch the couple of videos on You Tube of Max demonstrating the effects of his Seismic Pod. It's an eye opener! |
Green wood does damp but still rings. Dry it out ad it gets worse. You want something that doesn't ring and that has mass to block vibration coming up from below. I use 2" thick slabs of Brazilian granite - I used to use a large cement paving stone but was redoing the kitchen and had to buy a slab, and there was extra, so - a nice polished slab for both systems. Works very well mass loading and damping, just don't set it on a resonant base. |
Without much experimentation(some, though), I liked Mapleshade's maple over butcher block(3 inchs each, and big brass footers-used on the floor) for my amp. I also thought the 2-inch Mapleshade maple board, with their rubber, cork, rubber footers, came close enough to my Mana table, that I don't think it's totally worth the extra money for the Mana. This was with an Ariston RD110 turntable. |
Ole school wrote, "At some point isn’t the vibration going to travel onto the cantilever or arm just through the air?" excellent question. The acoustic waves traveling through the air don’t matter because speakers, even with big subwoofers usually cannot generate frequencies low enough to excite the cartridge or the tonearm, which are generally designed with resonant frequencies circa 10-12 Hz. Whereas seismic type vibrations with very low frequencies, including 10-12 Hz, can easily excite the cartridge and tonearm. |
I understand your comment . I respect it and it all makes sense , but at what level are we talking "the absolute discerning ear"on the absolute set up .. For me personnally i live 3 hrs from an airport on my large off grid ranch , tremours yes occasionally. I believed at a point (chosen by each individual and the finances) you have to concede to what your level of performance needs to be . I believe my setup is pretty bitchin and the entire room is setup for 2:1 and two listeners . To most people who come to my place im frikin nuts , at some point i have to say " my table sounds pretty dam good" and get some more music.i understand others have different opinions and there setup show this . I guess one mans floor is another’s ceiling.. I do like the ultra stealth ebm spoke of but i can’t find pricing. At some point isn't the vibration going to travel onto the cantilever or arm just through the air ? |
Adding to Geoff's comments the vibrations he describes (earthquakes, construction, passing cars) are very real and the effect of removing them (in my case by isolating my speakers) is profound. This is quite different from the normal (and also relevant) concern of isolating your components and sources from the effects of the speakers in the room The following link from Townshend is a nice explanation with data http://townshendaudio.com/PDF/Earthquakes%20on%20Hi%20Fi.pdf |
oleschool OP 93 posts 06-23-2016 11:48am I will check it out . I am not having any problems with vibration that i can discern .. I am still using my stock classic feet and my wood is on spikes then wall mounted obviously sound travels everwhere but i’m not experiencing any audible vibrations .. That’s what is so insidious. Everything sounds fine. There doesn’t have to be any telltale sign or giveaway that vibration, this very low frequency vibration I’m referring to, is an issue. Systems can still sound quite good even without vibration isolation. But everything's relative. Cheers |
"But i am searching out granite, corian or wood options(honestly i would perfer it to be black so i may stain or paint it ).I have 6"thick walls and a steel wallmount stand with massive isolation..my floors are rock solid i can have my table on top of my stand shelf mdf (spiked and filled with sand) and jump on my floor and nothing comes through my table.with it on the wall i could sit on the shelf." As fate would have it the Earth's crust motion forces the entire building to shake and vibrate like a rug being shaken out, such that even heroic attempts to stabilize and keep everything "rock solid" actually exacerbate the situation. Since isolation can be defined by the "ease of motion" in the direction of the external force, say the vertical and the horizontal directions, for example. This ease of motion concept is actually the opposite approach from the "rock solid" approach. The most common ease of motion approach for component isolation is mass on spring. I have used laboratory black granite mounted on stiff springs though you might have to look high and low for a large laboratory granite slab. Bluestone is much easier to find in say 3" thickness and works well with or without springs. geoff kait machina dynamica advanced audio concepts |
inna i was joking .. bdp i have built my entire system to be as nuetral as possible.Personnally just my opinion ,i doubt i would notice or hear a difference in almost any material with the mounting i have.and you are correct i do not want the platform to do anything other then look good and not add anything.Thats why i was asking about the hickory i had a line on it cheap .I would perfer walnut as my classic is walnut.But i am searching out granite, corian or wood options(honestly i would perfer it to be black so i may stain or paint it ).I have 6"thick walls and a steel wallmount stand with massive isolation..my floors are rock solid i can have my table on top of my stand shelf mdf (spiked and filled with sand) and jump on my floor and nothing comes through my table.with it on the wall i could sit on the shelf .i was just curious on opinions thats all .. |
I use MM cartridge. I also use one Walker Audio 1/2" resonance control disc placed on the maple platform next to but not touching the turntable motor. It tightens things up a little. But when I placed the second disc next to where tonearm was, it made the sound worse, though it certainly absorbed more energy. So, I still think that tuning in a general sense of the word is the way to go. |
"Tuning" an LP player by using a resonant wood support structure strikes me as wrong-headed as adding a tube buffer or pre-amp (or whatever) to add "warmth" to a system, as is often done to offset a "cold" CD player. The value of tube circuitry is it’s liquid transparency and high resolution---in contrast to the dry, bleached, colorless, and sterile sound of all but the best solid state---not in the "warmth" some attributed to tubes. Warmth is a coloration, just as is coldness. The best tube products don’t sound warm, and the best solid state doesn’t sound cold. If you have a system which produces a universally cold sound to everything played on it, adding a tube will not correct the situation---tit-for-tat doesn’t work in this case. Tubes should be used to prevent that kind of sound from being produced in the first place. Once it has, it’s too late for a tube to "correct" the situation. +1 and -1 sum to zero, but for a tube inserted in a system to exactly offset the cause of the coldness of that system is highly improbable. But back to the topic. Surely I’m not alone in thinking a shelf/platform/rack should have no signature sound of it’s own. The "musical" sound I’m after is not that produced by the wood shelf under my table adding it’s own sound to that of the recording (or to the player, if that is the thought), but of the sound of the wooden instruments in the recording itself. Maple-shelled drums sound great because maple possesses a lot of resonance and sustain---good characteristics in a music producing instrument. Are ya’ll saying you want your table’s support to have a musical sound of it’s own? And that you think a resonant, ringing material makes for a "musical" sounding turntable support? |
asvjerry, isolation yes.... looks? sorry but yes again.... nuetral or even slightly warm yes again.. I use to be a woodworker among other things,i still have freinds who do corian,granite etc on the east coast but the cost to ship is wicked out west. alot of these companies ship cutting boards for free custom sizes. I do like the look of wood all my other stand shelves are blackand steel.. |
A suggestion: If it's density and stability is what you seek, you might try stone. My shop (not audio, sorry) is next to a countertop firm. They generate an enormous amount of 'drops' from their projects, many suitable in size for any tt/arm combo. If you can generate a drawing showing what you want, they can make it. And with the range of choices in material, pattern, and colors you could make something really exquisite for about what you'd spend on a wood one. Not that wood isn't lovely, but... |
That's why I mentioned rosewood as the next wood I would try after maple. Then cherry. Both are musical woods. Mahogany is another wood worth trying, would probably be too warm for my set-up. The place that you mentioned has purpleheart block for about $500. That's what I said - exotic wood is expensive if you want to compare even a few. I might try cherry, even if the difference was small it would be worth it. And if it makes things worse, well, I could use an excellent cutting board in the kitchen. |
If interested, I wrote this review on a similar line: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/symposium-segue-iso-2 I had a maple butcher I used with my turntable and was amazed at how little isolation the maple provided. |
Bdp24 wrote, "What’s so special about Maple? The best drum shells are made of Maple because of it’s resonance and long sustain, not what I want in a support structure for my table!" Actually that’s why you DO want maple as a support structure for your table. It’s the natural musicality of maple that makes it such a good material for all sorts of isolation and support projects, such as Mapleshade racks and stands and my own Nimbus sub Hertz platform as well as musical instruments. It's been used by luthiers for centuries. Hel-looo! It’s musical. It’s magic. I prefer grade AAA white maple. geoff kait machina dramatics |
If you use isolation under your table (Townshend Seismic Pods, roller bearings, air bearing), the material of the shelf will not matter (as much?). I still have a couple of Torlyte shelves, the extremely low-mass design (hollow balsa-wood construction---very stiff, very non-resonant) big in England in the 80's and 90's. Linn-inspired, of course. Some of Ikea's butcher blocks are made of Bamboo, somewhat low-mass. What's so special about Maple? The best drum shells are made of Maple because of it's resonance and long sustain, not what I want in a support structure for my table! |
I am using the Sole sub chassis and arm board and top plate. They are very good and improved the sound considerably. The Linn is now the best turntable I have had and I prefer it to the Ravens of my friends. I will not say it is better as I have not heard them in my system but it more agile with the music while they are more massive if that makes any sense. Like any top components they all have their own sound. |
Some tables, especially the Linn, are tremendously affected by what they sit on and others are not. Plus, it's not about damping per-se. It's about what your ears prefer. The Linn likes a relatively flimsy stand. This is what the British reviews say and it is what I heard. I had a Rube Goldberg setup with an old Torlite stand on top of another stand and it worked better than my very ridged Star Sound stand. Others thought so also. I can recommend upgrades to the Linn but not their own as they are ridiculous in price. I regret that my memory has been damaged so I will have to look up the compenets. I will post they them. The what something Hercules power control from Hong Kong is the only one I remember. |
inna 1,969 posts 06-20-2016 2:34am "It appears that unlike cables audiophiles just don’t experiment with this. It is kind of surprising because the difference may not be subtle, especially when comparing maple to exotic woods." Actually audiophiles experiment a lot with various woods as well as many other materials. From maple to cherry to balsa to Mpingo wood to bamboo to walnut to spruce to Baltic birch plywood and others. From Corian to high density fiberboard to laboratory grade granite to glass to bluestone to marble to aluminum and plexiglass as well as various combinations thereof. And in thicknesses from 1/4" to 4". Geoff Kait machinadynamica.com no goats no glory |