bdp24 1,363 posts 06-25-2016 6:29am "The anti-high mass proponents will tell you that those designs don't "block vibrations", they just move them to a different frequency (lower) and transmit them longer---in other words, ring longer at a lower frequency for a longer length of time. That's why that crowd in England (all through the 80's and 90's) advanced the notion of very low mass, very stiff supports for turntables, such as Torlyte.
Max Townshend (and Audiogon's own Geoffkait---see above) will tell you that what's needed is a high-pass mechanical filter with as low a resonant frequency as possible. Do yourself a favor and watch the couple of videos on You Tube of Max demonstrating the effects of his Seismic Pod. It's an eye opener!"
Thanks for the comment however I believe you probably meant, "..what's needed is a low-pass mechanical filter with as low a resonant frequency as possible."
I will ...i have a very rigid wallmount and am ready to install whatever on top of it and under my table i know i may sound cheap but i really dont want to spend more then 500 on the platform new or even better used .. I would rather spend the money on lp . My tt sounds great or great to me already .i am moving it from my stand to my wall
Bdp are you saying the iso platform directly on my wallmount steel arms ? Or a platform of wood or granite then replace my classic's feet with the pods .. Im interested
Right you are Geoff. Is 180 degrees off close ;-) ? To state it again, what is needed under a turntable (or CD player, or tube electronics) is not a piece of wood (or whatever) with which to "tune" the entire LP player (what a "primitive" idea!), but a low-pass mechanical filter with as low a resonant frequency as possible (3Hz, tops). That’s what the Minus K platforms are, what the tables made for medical microscopes are, and what the Townshend Pod is.
Oleschool---The Townshend Pods are available singly. You can get the Townshend Seismic Platform with it’s four corner Pods if you want, but it’s cheaper to get just the Pods. With a solid-plinth table such as the Classic, the Platform is not required, and three or four Pods is substantially cheaper than the Platform.
If the wallmount is like the Target and Solid Steel with which I’m familiar, use the shelf that comes with it, using three or four Pods in place of the Classic’s four feet. The Pods are available rated for different loads, the internal springs being optimized for varying weights. Three will do, Max says four are better. They seem overpriced to me, but whatta ya gonna do?! One thing you can do is first try Geoffkait’s springs---they too look good, though not as sophisticated as the Townshend. Check them out on Geoff’s site.
Another option is the replacement part for the Classic’s foot offered by Symposium Acoustics. VPI owners who have tried it seem very satisfied with the improvement it provides.
"Right you are Geoff. Is 180 degrees off close ;-) ? To state it again, what is needed under a turntable (or CD player, or tube electronics) is not a piece of wood (or whatever) with which to "tune" the entire LP player (what a "primitive" idea!), but a low-pass mechanical filter with as low a resonant frequency as possible (3Hz, tops). That’s what the Minus K platforms are, what the tables made for medical microscopes are, and what the Townshend Pod is."
Yes, the tried and true mass-on-spring devices are required for real isolation, Townshend was one of the very first with his Seismic Sink 20 years ago, and Bright Star had the sand box device which is a little different idea and he came out later with an air spring based stand. The super tricky negative stiffness machine Minus K used to be the Newport Corp.'s Sub Hertz Platform before it got appropriated for audiophile use. Vibraplane is still going strong after what, twenty years? What I have in mind currently is something akin to the sandbox contraption except I’m using a bed of perfect roundness diamond hardness super micro size glass spheres for more effective and rapid dissipation of energy.
Geo or bdp or anyone . Would this addition (feet iso ...) have any relevance if this was through headphones or at low levels ? I do not have a headphone setup i was just curious
I have been working with methods to reduce or eliminate interfering energy which is the result of a wave passing thru a solid material. All things in audio have these waves which are not directly of the compression type. A reduction in the interfering wave energy results in greater amplitude of the primary wave. You cannot achieve this benefit in a so called damped or isolated system as it only generates more interfering energy. Tom
theaudiotweak 1,349 posts 06-26-2016 5:13pm "I have been working with methods to reduce or eliminate interfering energy which is the result of a wave passing thru a solid material. All things in audio have these waves which are not directly of the compression type. A reduction in the interfering wave energy results in greater amplitude of the primary wave. You cannot achieve this benefit in a so called damped or isolated system as it only generates more interfering energy."
Many isolation and damping techniques are energy conversion type systems, that’s true. But what your blanket statement overlooks or ignores, or so it would appear, is that when mechanical energy (mechanical or acoustic energy) is converted to heat (when WORK is performed using the FORCE of the vibration) the HEAT thus created is not deleterious to sound quality. I.e., heat is not an "interfering energy" as you claim, at least as far as sound quality is concerned. Sandbox isolation and constrained layer damping are examples of systems that convert (unwanted) mechanical energy to heat. Dismissing damping and isolation systems because they generate "interfering energy" doesn’t make sense. As Judge Judy says, if it doesn’t make sense it’s not true.
oleschool OP 107 posts 06-28-2016 11:24pm geoff are you offering feet at this time?
I do not offer feet, what I do offer is cryo'd high carbon steel springs for isolation and will soon be offering a new isolation stand for CD players, etc that employs a bed of precision glass microspheres.
oleschool OP 108 posts 06-29-2016 7:17pm Geoff. Where can i see these ? ..Pics etc
i will ill post pics of the new iso stands in a couple weeks on my website. pics of my cryo'd springs including the new Super Stiff Springs are posted on my website.
Geoff, The conversion of energy to heat you profess appears to be a prime working model for the anti-vibration belief camp. I ‘never stated’ anything in our previous discussions about Heat so this so called heat maybe what is generated from your model but not from mine or others of the pro-vibration group. The only heat generated concerning me is when you put words in my mouth and publicize it in your rhetoric. Heat generated in your model is a disruptive byproduct resulting in an extremely sluggish process of managing vibration. Similar to musical instruments, we have found that high speed resonance transfer delivers a livelier musical sound quality regardless of your many prohibiting quotes and public mentoring regarding theories relating to heat conversion. I find your methods do not and cannot discern between good vibes and bad...or if there are any. Certain wave forms occur in all audio components, agreed? These are commonly known as compound waves where ‘interfering energy’ occurs. The selection of materials you have chosen multiplies these compound waves resulting in greater heat buildup and a much greater loss in component operational efficiency. The materials used in the majority of your discussions and products are inherently nonlinear due to their varying chemical makeup and multiple shapes. They lack direct signal pathways resulting in constant speed changes and in my opinion are ‘old school’ types of geometric design. Do you agree that materials have signal pathways where every chosen material and shape has a voice in your sound system? We do too. Have you ever applied your methods for a tympani drum placed on a giant sandbox or placed an upright bass or cello on a sheet of Sorbothane supported by springs and played? If you can predict the results, what would the temperature rise across the surface of the instrument be as the vibration is very slowly, bit by bit, converted to heat? Would this temperature change result in better sound and remain musical without altering the character of the instrument? I have removed the rubber materials from the mentioned instruments and replaced those with materials and shapes that conduct energy and couple that vibration to the higher mass of the stage floor. These instruments are now ‘direct coupled’ to surface boundaries and measure an acoustic gain of .5 db to 2.5 db. No energy is lost through those slower methodologies of heat conversion although I never attempted to measure a heat rise, as in theory your doctrine does. You always talk about heat and when you return comment with your torturous forms of putting words in the mouths of others… Please, Answer me this: What is the conversion ratio for changing vibration to heat? What is the reference in real time for this conversion of energy forms to take place?Can you display the instantaneous heat rise of a component when vibration is converted to heat? How is that done and with what measuring tool is used? The products we offer at Star Sound provide a simple, direct orderly pathway for ‘interfering energy’ to run at high speed to the higher mass of ground. We offer the same technical approach for musical instruments that result in providing musicians a higher level of sound quality. We prefer to maintain energy rather than burn it. Tom
Tom, while I admire to a certain extent the heroic effort you spent in writing that longish essay I found so many contradictions and mischaracterizations of what I said and Strawman arguments I hardly know where to begin. So, at least for now, I won't begin.
Interesting conversation. Geoff i read your entire website .. You have some tweeks for sure ! If my classic is roughly 50 lbs what springs should i try ?. I saw light and heavy spring ? I am interested in your springs and seeing your platform . I can honestly say i dont have the skillset to comment on this level .It seems as though you have quite the credentials , I have had iso platforms and most types of iso over the years . I have not tried springs . I almost bought a tnt srung table awhile back .. Thanks to all for there comments i enjoy reading this thread .
Wow Ht 1st off this is the anolgue forum .. Digital is over that way 👈 . I have digital also . A pretty decent digital at that ,and they isolate digital dac and transports too ( all gear )and it also makes a difference .. We all have opinions i do not agree with yours .. And personnally 98% of what i listen to is pre 1990 ✊
"If my classic is roughly 50 lbs what springs should i try?"
The Baby Promethean Mini Isolators are for moderate weight components. 5 springs for 50 lb, about 10 lb per spring. The new Super Stiff Springs are for very heavy components, 4 springs for components 75-150 lb. All springs $12 each. All springs are cryo’d for superior performance. All of these springs are about 1" compressed height. And in many if not most cases they can be placed directly under components.
oleschool---theaudiotweak’s argument promoting the notion of transferring energy from one object into another of higher mass via hard cones or spikes---the "mechanical diode" theory, wherein energy coming from a source component is transferred through a "one-way" energy path (the cones or spikes) into the higher mass of a stand, or floor, or whatever---can be, and has been, shown to be a myth. As Max Townshend explains and demonstrates in his You Tube videos, any object that can transmit energy in one direction can, and does, transmit it in the other direction just as easily. The idea of cones or spikes being isolators is an incorrect one; they transmit energy up through them as well as down out of them---up from your turntable’s support, through the cones or spikes, and into your tables plinth. They are couplers, the exact opposite of what you want in a turntable support.
You want isolation---from the Earth’s seismic activity, from street traffic, from nearby construction, from your home’s heating and cooling system, from the transformers in your amps, from the vibrations created in your room from music playing, and from what is right under your table---it's shelf. You want a very low frequency low-pass mechanical filter under your table---springs, air bearing, ball bearing, etc. For a while people were using lossy rubber isolators---Sorbothane, Neoprene, Navcom. Their failing is in having too high an effective filter frequency---in the audible range, creating "spongy" bass and soft transients, and in being non-linear---they treat different frequencies differently, making their sound unpredictable.
bdp, I appreciate your research and your arguments for one way or another. Having said that, they (are) just that, since, and correct me if I'm wrong, you have not tried any of these items in your system?
I've always found that no matter how much science backs up one theory or how much a manufacturer backs up their own theory/product, it really doesn't matter until you try it out for yourself in your own system/environment. Then you can confidently report on how it sounds in your specific system.
foq , has some fairly new "ball-in-cup" devices made out of different materials that should be well worth checking out. Pricey but very effective from what I've been told.
astro58go 14 posts 07-02-2016 9:59am foq , has some fairly new "ball-in-cup" devices made out of different materials that should be well worth checking out. Pricey but very effective from what I’ve been told.
I like mixing and matching. Roller bearing or ball in cup devices with springs or the new bio micro g. Better isolation in more directions of motion. Rock and roll. Twist and shout.
I suggest trying things for yourself. ( this is the best form of education). For all of the products, the theories, the best intentioned responses, ... nothing beats trying things out in your own system/room. Especially when the product is fairly inexpensive.
i'm interested geoff ,as for my classsic i would remove my feet and place the springs under? How do i address leveling ?. I am also considering trying these under my sub any thoughts ...
This is one of the main reasons one should have a platform between the springs and the supporting structure.( I have a Classic 3 Sig. SE, with his springs) I know what I'm talking about.
oleschool OP 114 posts 07-02-2016 1:42pm i'm interested geoff ,as for my classsic i would remove my feet and place the springs under? How do i address leveling ?. I am also considering trying these under my sub any thoughts ...
You might have to remove the feet. The springs can be moved by hand so absolute level is a snap. Under the sub is an excellent idea. For really heavy subs the Super Stiff Springs are the ticket.
astro58go 21 posts 07-02-2016 1:26pm Can you explain your last remark in "layman's" terms? Thanks.
There are six degrees of freedom or directions of motion. Vertical (y), two horizontal (x and z) and the three rotational directions, one around each axis. The two rotational directions around x, z axes I call rock and rock and the twist direction is around the vertical y axis.
I think you can understand why I prefer my method of trying items for myself... as opposed to seeking a simple reason for a specific products' reason for being!
astro58go 24 posts 07-02-2016 2:58pm OK?? How does this response plus your response in the thread addressed above make sense to all of us "earthlings"?
I will get a weight on my sub and i am gonna try your setup on my classic ..springs should be ok on my carpet i have berber with thick pad ? Thanks for all the input
oleschool OP 116 posts 07-02-2016 4:19pm I will get a weight on my sub and i am gonna try your setup on my classic ..
Just in case it’s not obvious the bottom of the TT would need to be perfectly flat and uniform to be able to accommodate the springs. Otherwise, as the other dude observed, you will need a board between the TT and the springs. One more thing, it’s probably best to remove the feet from the turntable if you use a board between the TT and the springs since it’s not a good idea to have two springy systems in series. If it were me I'd interface the TT to the board with cones, say DH Cones.
Geoff As opposed to leaving the original feet to platform then your springs ? I think the springs would also be interesting under my sub . Again will the carpet and padding pose a problem for the springs? My sub is 38lbs
Ht thanks for your input .. I asked the question and started this discussion of which many people voiced there opinions . I am a musician of over 30 yrs and been into audio gear for longer . I'm a big boy and have made my share of mistakes with snake oil . I have personnally heard changes using different tweeks ie cables iso ac lines etc . So i do not agree with your opinion nor that of many others here at times .You have spoken your point and beliefs thank you for your insight . There is no need really for anymore bashing. You can start your own forum for that if you wish ..
Astro thanks . I was under the belief this forum discussion i started would give me some insight on what others are using over the years . Some tweeks are well " too out there for me " but isolating vibration from my turntable is not nor is adding sound deadning in my room or studio or upgrading cables etc to a point . I never understand why some of the " hyper elite" are so judgmental nor the novice are so unwilling to try things and decide for themselves . Perfect example does my tt sound better when it is isolated better . Yes ive proven it . Do my spkr sound better firmly planted .yes ive proven it . Does my digital sound better with a better cable .. Yes ive proven it . Does my hollowbody gretch sound different then my prs mcarty yes. My tube marshall over a peavy again yes .. Thanks for your input
oleschool OP 119 posts 07-02-2016 7:41pm Geoff As opposed to leaving the original feet to platform then your springs ? I think the springs would also be interesting under my sub . Again will the carpet and padding pose a problem for the springs? My sub is 38lbs
if the original feet are not springy they can be left on. Two springy things used together interfere w/ each other. Like a car going down the road with two shock absorbers for each wheel connected in series, it would be a very bumpy ride. Same goes for springs on carpet. If it were me I would use spikes capable of piercing the carpet/pad to support a maple board, then place the springs on the board.
oleschool, Been following this thread reading the expected mix of suggestions.
I replaced the footers on my VPI Classic with the Mapleshade brass footers. The table is on a 4" maple slab with the rubber/cork blocks supporting the slab.
The Mapleshade philosophy is correct/incorrect as the rest of the recommendations, but I chose it because of another concern.
The stock footers IMO ruin the look of the table. The stock footers look cheesy and cheapen the appearance of an otherwise sharp looking table design. I paid with my hard cash, so I expect my gear to sound AND look good.
Sonic improvements are subtle and subjective, but can be noticed if you can A/B a music passage for 15 seconds with the stock setup then IMMEDIATELY place footers and the 40 pound slab underneath the table and play that same passage. In other words, its kinda tough to really hear dramatic results. I THINK there is some sort of added overall "realness" to both ends of the sonic spectrum particularly tightening up of the bass notes of an upright jazz bass or kick drum in a rock tune. Pricey, but so is anything in this hobby.
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