Anti skate question for Rega P8/RB 880 arm

I think of you as a fairly experienced guy, but I will take a shot at your question anyway.  First, there is no one single "correct" setting for anti-skate, because the skating force is varying in magnitude, second by second, as the stylus traverses the LP surface.  Second, no matter what Rega may say, everyone else seems to agree that one should use the most minimal amount of AS needed to correct for channel-specific distortions one might otherwise here.  In other words, with no AS, one typically hears noticeable distortion in the R channel.  (Owners of VPI tonearms claim not to hear this.)  If you do hear distortion in the R channel with no AS, then add AS force in tiny increments until that goes away.  The needed amount in grams is usually a very small fraction of VTF.  That's what I do.  Others view the cantilever from the front end of the cartridge and look for its deviation from 90 degrees to the LP surface; they add AS until the cantilever seems to be unstressed.  I don't do that.Still others will say they use the run-out grooves of an LP and look for "gradual" motion toward the label.  And still more others will say they use a groove-less LP and look for the stylus to remain stationary.  That's my least favorite idea, because the skating force is due to friction in the groove, and with no grooves you are not reproducing the force you want to cancel.

Thanks lewm. I am pretty experienced with equipment over the decades, but never set up my own tables and never even thought about anti skate until the guy from tru lift brought it up because the arm was skating off his lift bar just last week. It was set at 1 or so. He had me set it at about .6-.7 (it's hard to see exactly where it's at) but agrees with you that it should be as low as possible. I'm going to try it at .2-.4 as VDH recommends unless I hear distortion and then I'll up it a bit.

I guess in an ideal world, you'd use a linear tracking arm that has no need for anti skate, but that presents other problems as to how the arm moves across the record. I had a Phase Linear linear tracking table (8000) for a long time up until about 2000 or so that was fully automatic with all kinds of motors and things to distort the sound. I didn't realize how bad the sound was until it broke and I replaced it with a Music Hall MMF 5 that absolutely blew it away. Before then I didn't want a manual table. Thanks again.

After many years, I started using an lp with a smooth surface, no grooves, like this

https://recordblanks.com/product/anti-skate-calibration-record-pre-order-calibration-records-will-ship-july-6th/

you may have all this done, if not, for others following

get needed tools, you can learn to do this yourself if you don’t have the skills yet:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07794JXYZ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01HF9PEA4/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N9TRSPC/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
https://www.amazon.com/Coghlans-8501-Featherweight-Mirror/dp/B000RZQI68/ref=sr_1_17?dchild=1&keywords=small+mirror&qid=1598463376&sr=8-17
https://www.amazon.com/Hudson-Hi-Fi-Azimuth-Protractor-Bundle/dp/B07S3Y7FXS/ref=sr_1_21?dchild=1&keywords=tonearm+alignment&qid=1598463969&sr=8-21

I have one of these specific for my tonearm, but there are enough marks for any tonearm
https://www.amazon.com/Zripool-Turntable-Tachometer-Calibration-Stroboscope/dp/B07QNVF74Y/ref=sr_1_13?dchild=1&keywords=lp+strobe&qid=1598464313&sr=8-13

If you have OCD, you can buy fancier stuff, but those will get you there.

1. zero anti-skate for everything, anti-skate last

2. after very careful alignment of

overhang, distance stylus tip past the spindle (specific for each tonearm)
two null points, horizontal alignment in arm/headshell, view from top
azimuth, vertical alignment down into the groove, view from front
VTA, vertical tracking angle, cartridge maker specifies, view from side
SRA, Stylus Rake Angle is what you are really going for when getting vta correct
VTA/SRA involves precise adjustment of height of tonearm

3.. tracking force, use digital scale

4. finally/last: anti-skate
add amount equaling the tracking force, just to see if your arm anti-skate is accurate, as will be revealed by:

place stylus tip in center of smooth lp, spin by hand, see if moving out/in/ stays essentially where it was.
refine adjust for 2 movements
a. place tip near where inner grooves typically are. manually spin. in a bit is ok, out, lessen as till in a bit.
b. then double check action when stylus starts from where center of grooves are, not out, not in too quickly.

5. test record if you must,

6. I prefer this LP for final verificarion

https://www.discogs.com/sell/release/5862108?ev=rb&sort=condition%2Cdesc

side two, tracks 2 and 3, all 3 guitarists play, you know and can try/make AS adjustments listening to the imaging, if right you will hear john in the middle with greater clarity/separation from paco to left, al to right. listen not only to paco and al for volume and imaging,also listen to the audience for general wall of sound.
.................................
if you have room to place this between your arm and edge of platter, this is terrific end of play lifter.  it fit for my main 12.5" arm, no room for my 9" arm, base too close to platter.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07HKX6WL7/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

this weight is reasonably priced

https://www.amazon.com/Audio-Technica-AT618A-AT618a-Disc-Stabilizer/dp/B07HB2LDYT/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=audio+technica+weight&qid=1598464704&sr=8-1

Oy.

Elliott- are you kidding me? No dealer I know goes to that level of insanity. I think you do have OCD even if you don't go down to the second level of your instructions.

I just had a simple question - the tracking was set up by someone at VPI (Van den hul's new US distributor - who were all very nice despite seeing an archival's product invade their facility - one guy even said he thought my table was very cool - not sure if he still is employed there) who builds their tables who used a digital scale - I guess done to your step 3. All I want to know is in general guidelines for anti skate because of all the conflicting information. If you look at the anti skate mechanism for the RB 880, it is a very imprecise slider - can't be exactly sure where you are between 0 and 1. It's not a knob with tiny gradations like tucking force.

In your vast experience after doing all of your steps above in many scenarios, where do you see the best level for anti-skate ending up? A Rega answer would be most helpful, but all your testing end results (not process) would be nice to hear. A percentage of tracking force, an absolute number, start with zero....? I will not be changing it once I have it set to adjust for specific albums, types of music, etc. I am not a tweaker - I like to set it and forget it.

sokogear OP

I would like to provide you with a few links that discuss everything you ever wanted to know about skating force. It is an easy read and has some very informative videos along with it. The best information I have ever read on the subject.

https://www.wallyanalog.com/post/skating-anti-skating-the-basics

https://www.wallyanalog.com/post/skating-force-offset-angle-part-1-of-2

Sounds like they are trying to sell some kind of product, but the bottom line is they are closer to what the tru lift guy is saying versus what Rega is saying. Since seeing a gradation of even 10% on the slider is tough, I'll keep it around .3-.4 or so, in line with what Van den Hul recommends.

Long time ago I had bought a DV 17D2 to go on my RB300 arm, I set AS on the Rega’s slider to match the VTF, 1.95g. After probably a year or two too many I started getting balance issues with the system, I found the stylus was twisted off the vertical and the cantilever was no longer pointing where it should, not bent, it’s a diamond one, but not straight ahead either. My next cartridge, another D2, I set AS using the blank track on “The Enjoyment of Stereo” about half way across the disk, on the slider it was nearer to 1 than 2 this time and the cantilever stayed in line for 5+ years with no CD player to share the burden.

lewm nailed it, and it was a pleasure to read too. About the only thing I might add is the L or R channel distortion people hear is anti-skate being off to a gross degree. Its possible to reach a level where much smaller errors become noticeable. What I noticed only became apparent within the last year or so, center image seemed to tend to be just a bit to the right. Recordings don't always put things dead center so it took me a while to be sure. Well if its off to the right, the right channel is on the right side of the groove, maybe a little too much anti-skate? Adjusted it down very slightly and not only did it shift that little bit more to center but the whole stage became even a little bit more holographic.  

So as with everything analog it seems you get anywhere in the ballpark and its great, but you can always do even a little better than that- but only if you're willing to tweak by ear. Because as lewm so clearly explained these things are all very dynamic and ever-changing, so you have to rely on the one thing able to look at the whole picture, and that is no meter or dial it has to be you. 

sokogear

why do you have a TT? Better than CD?

Certainly not unless the fundamentals are done right.

Most of us (I think I can say), over time have had various turntables, various tonearms, various cartridges, 

It is not rocket science, just the needed tools, and careful patience.

YES Elliott. TT is better than CD or anything digital IMHO. But let’s not go down that road. I had a discussion on a very similar topic a couple months back that went very deep with I think 500 posts. 
This was just what I hoped would be a simple anti skate question which lewm and millercarbon helped answer so it was easily  understandable and didn’t involve buying anything.

my simple answer was

the smooth lp lets you 'see it' for real, $12.50 too much for that?

beyond that, as I said, I always write answers for OP and anybody else following along.

"you may have all this done, if not, for others following"