Dear Stringreen: "
The object of all of this is to get sound that is closest to a live performance.... "
well my target is to stay closer to the recording.
Anyway, what need we to stay closer to the recording?: a nearest " perfect " cartridge ridding/tracking to the LP recorded grooves. At least is the primary characteristic to achieve that goal.
The cartridge stylus/cantilever/suspension has a very hard days trying to track the LP grooves because the existence of so many forces that has influence during the tracking job all over the LP recorded surface.
The ridding of the cartridge stylus goes from one side to the other and running at the same time up and down even if the LP is flat. Additional to that the excentricity of the LPs introduce additional movements/forces to the free cartridge tracking as the LP waves too. Before the skating force the cartridge is against many other micro vibrations generated by the action between the cartridge/tonearm and from the TT too and all the feedback of those generated diferent kind of vibrations with diferent kind of amplitude.
Now, on all those overall " forces/vibrations sea " lives the skating force with an additional influence that we can't just disappeared in some ways, perhaps we can set up at minimum for almost no influence but we can't be sure we can do it and with so many variables surrounded the skating force is really dificult to aisle its critical influence in the performance quality sound level.
Yes, you said: I like it what I listen more with out a/s and I'm with you on this subject or at least I was w test with the Telarc 1812 recording where I found out that some cartridges tracked in better way with a/s that with out it.
Because I want to be nearer to the recording I prefer to use a " minute " kind of a/s till I found out a way that improve the cartridge tracking with out the a/s.
That more open sound with out a/s that you mentioned was my experience too and now I think that that " better " sound quality could be a form of some added distortion.
My test was performed using the vintage Lustre GST 801 tonearm that has a magnetic ( not mechanical. ) a/s mechanism and I think the EPA 100 too. In a few days to come I will try to do it again with other today tonearms and se what happen.
The analog experience is a nightmare. Everytime we change the VTF in theory we have to change the a/s too and other related parameters.
Regrads and enjoy the music,
R.
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No anti skate, and no arm to junction box cable twist, on my VPI arm.
I do use a VTF about 0.1 gm above recommended optimum.
Remember anti skate is never completely correct across the LP. Also the stylus vibrates in three dimensions during play, making tracking error less important than many claim.
I hear no inner groove distortion on any of my 2000 Lp’s.
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rauliruegas
"...
The analog experience is a nightmare.
"
I think that's a myth. Yes, proper setup can be a tedious process. You need the right tools, and everything has to be precise. Yes, it's typically expensive to do it well. But it's a mature technology, so pretty much everything that's a factor in LP playback - I assume that's what you mean when you refer to "analog" - is a known entity. Excellent playback gear, from cartridge to phono preamp to cables, is readily obtainable ... for a price. That it is complex and easy to get wrong shouldn't make it a nightmare for anyone with experience.
There are those that want to make LP playback a mystical, ethereal pursuit. But it's really fairly basic physics and geometry.
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I would highly suggest you either call the arm manufacturer or take the table to a reliable repair center to be checked. That's the best recommendation anyone can give you.
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Audiolad, that's good advice. |
Cleeds said :
"There are those that want to make LP playback a mystical, ethereal pursuit. But it’s really fairly basic physics and geometry."
That is until you use your ears and find that the "basic physics & geometry" didn’t go according to plan....or until your eyeballs can’t see that graticule quite as clearly as they used to. (...or until you’ve done your 20th cartridge in one day as Raul has probably done). Then it becomes a "nightmare". ;^) I’m also one of those old fashioned guys who doesn’t like to stress gimballed bearings so whenever I do something as simple as tightening cart screws after a cartridge reposition I’ll strip the entire tonearm off the turntable. Raul undoubtedly uses the term nightmare rather than PITA but I know exactly what he means... ;^)
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I believe I can help cut through this anti-skating complexity by just applying our audiophile mantra "just listen". Re-reading the Soundsmith set-up instructions, I was pleased to see confirmation of my suspicion that more anti-skating means more pressure on the right channel (outer groove)!
So, first, start with a properly set up system, i.e. soundstage with a perfectly centered "center image" using a cd player and several different recordings (no doubt you've already done this). Then, play one of your favorite records that has a center image - middle of the record. Adjust A/S until the center image is perfectly centered, more A/S to adjust the center image to the right & less to adjust it to the left.
I'm thinking this is equal pressure/wear on the stylus and on the records, adjusts your soundstage to be the same as your CD's, and even takes into account Soundsmith's variable of type/loudness of music because as your favorite, that's the type you will be listening to most.
-You'll hear the difference and know that it's right.
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Few tonearms have accurate anti-skate markings. Add in the difference between stylus shapes and you have what I persona;; have only seen Grace address. Their instructions, at least for my friend's 707, says to look at the stylus when you start the platter, note which way the cantilever flexes, and adjust accordingly. |
Truman
I wish to have the "like" button
Thank you!
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moonglum390 posts "...or until you’ve
done your 20th cartridge in one day as Raul has probably done). Then it
becomes a "nightmare".
If one is trying to align 20 phono cartridges in a day, that would indeed be a nightmare. The user would have only himself to blame. |
Lighten up Cleeds....I was giving Raul the benefit of the doubt.... ;^) Detachable headshells and interchangeable armwands....it could be done .... ;^) |
moonglum wrote: Second-guessing what DD might say, he would probably argue that LP mis-drilling “forces” are oriented at the “correct” (stylus) end of the tonearm and that the cantilever would be intrinsically less stressed than by A/S. Oops, wrong guess! In a discussion of A/S settings, the forces generated by eccentrically drilled LPs are merely a non-sequitar, since no A/S device compensates for them. ;-) If eccentrically drilled LPs are bothersome, get a TT with an adjustable spindle or ream out the hole and center the LP before play. Problem solved. *** For the record, I never "advocated" for zero A/S. While zero A/S sounds best in my system, I’ve heard other systems where *some* A/S sounded best... Dan_Ed’s for example. FYI, Dan agreed with my take in both cases. Neither of us advocated for anything but making an informed decision. In using zero A/S I acknowledge the probability of uneven stylus and/or groovewall wear. These effects must result from skating forces if left uncompensated for over time, as PL amply documented. For me, A/S decreases my enjoyment of music sufficiently that I’m willing to accept those risks. I’m gambling that I’ll be deaf or dead before I hear much deterioration from them. In the meantime, I maximize musical enjoyment today. This pleasant if short-sighted calculus might differ if I were in my twenties. Regrettably, I’m not. As skating forces are constantly changing, there is no perfect A/S setting and never will be. The optimal setting is therefore an individual matter. So long as the decision is made with understanding and well tuned ears, it will be a good (though imperfect) one. The OCD-prone may find this profoundly unsatisfying, but this particular parameter is not susceptible of perfection. *** To the OP: - As stated by others, A/S does not effect relative channel output (except perhaps in extreme cases. I’ve never heard it do so myself).
- Adjusting A/S by observing how the stylus behaves on ungrooved vinyl bears little rational relationship to how the stylus will behave in randomly modulated grooves. But so long as you fine tune by LISTENING, that’s as good a starting place as any... I suppose.
- To Raul’s suggestion (clean all contacts) and the suggestion to check channel levels on other sources, I’ll add, try swapping tube pairs (if you have) or L/R signal leads as a diagnostic. It’s easier to fix a problem if you isolate it first.
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DougDeacon wrote : "In a discussion of A/S settings, the forces generated by eccentrically drilled LPs are merely a non-sequitar, since no A/S device compensates for them. ;-) "
Hardly non-sequitur, Doug! The context is that anti-skating force causes "audible stress" on the suspension. Lateral movement due to mis-drilling also causes suspension stress (continuous but alternating) whether it is possible to compensate or not? As you know, even well-optimised A/S doesn't truly "compensate" for all operational conditions because skating is a constantly moving target. |
To describe skating force as constantly changing and therefore any setting will be imperfect, is accurate but deceptive. It is accurate that skating varies with groove velocity and offset angle, but deceptive to apply the word perfect to the physical playing of a phonograph record. I don't adjust AS by seeing how the stylus behaves in a blank groove. That seems pretty stupid. If you observe the cantilever from the front while your "typical" music is playing, and repeat this observation, you might get an idea of the error your headshell position is to the centering of the cartridge. In a perfect world your cantilever should be centered over the groove. Antiskate is a force applied to the arm in an attempt to do just that. What is groove velocity? The velocity of stylus deflections (bouncing off side walls) in-groove. Since the groove is constantly moving it's the job of the arm to be both a stable platform for the cart and a perfect follower of the groove as it moves toward the spindle. Why the uneven tip wear if such is the case? Having a poorly centered cart is to encourage channel imbalance - uneven cantilever deflections with respect to L and R. If someone hasn't heard channel imbalance due to AS, then they've been using heavy trackers or lack powers of observation. This is obvious with low VTF carts where channel imbalance is more dramatic and immediate. I think you'll find, there is no completely right answer. With lower cu carts you're choosing between physical centering and increased torsional affects on the cantilever from AS. fleib |
Dear Fleib,
Regarding your comment on channel imbalance, do you have a
flame-proof suit? ;^)
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Sorry, my last sentence should have read:
With lower cu carts you're choosing between physical centering with increased torsional affects on the cantilever, or no increase in torsional affects with possible uneven wear. Moonglum, No antiskate is a viable option provided VTF is great enough to prevent mistracking. This is not always an option, especially for high cu carts and low VTF. Look at the physics from a mechanical perspective. You're messing with the pressure on the groove walls by the cantilever/stylus. I don't know how anyone could miss channel imbalance with a high cu cart. Regards, |
Dear Fleib, No worries. Yes, it’s interesting to get a general overview of how successful folk are at keeping VTF within reasonable limits. Most people tend to live at the top end of the spectrum. Sometimes this is because others recommend it or perhaps because they’ve used Test Tones resulting in a "maxxing out" of A/S. Indeed there is a minority "Cult of Excessive VTF" (i.e. beyond the manufacturers recommendation or max limit) which is not always discouraged by manufacturers on the grounds that the customer is always right (Why argue? Whatever makes them happy!) ;^)
Now, I’m not saying that any of our illustrious "zero A/S" contributors here are getting anywhere near that level of VTF in their quest for zero anti-skate just that there are others out there compensating for different reasons. For the benefit of those who may be misled into maxxing out on VTF (or over-Maxxing) we should publish the standard warning that VTF increases skating force and thereby unilateral wear on the diamond. There is a price to pay...
Don’t know if you’ve tried the following experiment? Several years ago I performed multiple needledrops of one side of an LP, bracketing the optimum A/S setting ranging from “A/S max” to a setting below the optimum. Then I was able to rapidly switch between them on an HDD running them effectively in parallel with each other. (This of course assumed that VTF should be identically/ideally "mid-range" for all needledrops.) As you quite rightly say, changes in general balance between each setting are clearly audible (whether there is an actual voltage amplitude difference is contentious for some). Subtle though the differences are when AB-ing, what was interesting about this was that listeners didn’t hugely dislike any of the settings but would eventually arrive at a preference with some difficulty. On the other hand, doing a similar experiment "the hard way" by adjusting the T/T then using a fading musical memory of the programme material to compare will of course still work, albeit less successfully because few people want to wear out the same snapshot over & over again on an LP, so for the purposes of comparison it’s undeniably easier & quicker to switch between samples and instantly replay on an HDD. One of the rare advantages of digital technology...it’s consistent. ;^) |
Sorry, Lew M, can I cite age as the main factor in my mistake? |
Truman, might I suggest you add one thing to your method. When you get that centered image, try to incrementally change anti-skate more and less, until you decide what you like the best. Sleep on your results, and look to see what setting gets you more excited about listening to your records. I think I found the correct setting was incrementally less than where the image seemed to lock in. This method is actually more scientific than you might think, because it takes into account things we can't/don't measure. There can be many things(electronics, speakers, etc.) that are imperfect in their balance, etc. |
I didn't read the entire Post I have a sota cosmos SME V tonearm and Retip ortofon jubilee set at 2.2 grams if I raise a/s higher than 2 won't track in silent part of test record and if I go lower than 2 same result try a/s same as tracking weight hope helps although you probably did |
Dear Etone, "Ortofon jubilee set at 2.2 grams if I raise a/s higher than 2 won't track in silent part of test record..."
I'm slightly puzzled by this comment. Is this test not intended to highlight bearing noise/rumble rather than mistracking? Can you explain? |
Just put the stylus in runout groove at end of record. Watch how the cartridge and stylus moves toward the spindle, it should be move smooth and steady toward spindle. Watch and see if it moves too slowly or too quickly. Too quickly, too much anti skate, too slowly, not enough. Strive for the middle ground. There exists a video on this i believe from soundsmith. As for the comment of it sounds best with no anti skate, good luck with that, as you will soon wear out your left groove wall.
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