Another “How to choose an arm” question

@holmz , I have a program called Pure Vinyl. I can digitize and catalog vinyl. I already have an ADC. My phono stage has been digitized for 20 some odd years now as my preamp is digital. Pure Vinyl also has digital RIAA correction but you have to have a phono stage with a flat or uncorrected out put. I have one on the way and plan to try it. There are people who think it is superior to analog correction. Yes, you can record multiple versions of any situation and compare but it does take a lot of time and work. I do compare digital to analog versions of various recordings by synchronizing the record to the digital then just switch back and forth by remote. This is pretty easy to do and a lot of fun. It also takes little time. You do have to purchase multiple versions of the same recording but I suspect most of us do that anyway.

Great that you got a CB. All the adjustment grub screws have nylon inserts so they do not leave marks. You only need a light touch when you tighten them. Don't over do it!  Be very careful with the lead out wires. They are tougher than you think but still, having to rewire the entire arm would suck. The axis of the horizontal bearing has to be 222 mm from the spindle. A 1" hole will work perfectly. It really should be done on a drill press. If you have any issues feel free to message me.

@mijostyn thanks mate!

 

@pindac 

@holmz Great News that you are to try out a Tonearm that has an attraction to you. I am sure you will start to notice differences immediately and the curiosity will be further ignited, you will not be alone in this, my daily mantra is 'What If', my talk on HiFi yesterday was with my friend who is almost completed a design for a Tonearm that could become a marketable product

Is it Alexy?
I was going to buy his, but the CB popped up used day before yesterday.

I am based in the UK, and not aware of a forum member known as Alexy.

The Tonearm I am referring to is at present a prototype, that has had a quantity of critical parts requiring outsourced machining, as it has been cost effective to do so, instead of having one part only produced.

The designer and builder/assembler also has the skills to machine a selection of the parts, but those parts that have to be 'minute dimension accurate' are best left to the services that work with the producing the tightest of tolerances daily and know the best practices. 

The Geometry and Mechanical Interfaces are complete for the Tonearm.

It won't be long before the mechanical interfaces to be considered for the TT assembly of parts are to be addressed, and the Cart' alignment is given a extra TLC.

Then when all is ready and functioning as designed for, I will request that a second Tonearm is assembled with PC Triple C Internal Wire, as my most recent experience has shown that there is a special attribute for this wire when used as the signal path within a Tonearm. 

I am hankering for, and really looking forward to the time when a Company produces a Cart' with this wire used for the coil and Lead Out Pins, it might just prove to be a New Break through.   

Dear @mijostyn  :  "  I do compare digital to analog versions of various recordings by synchronizing the record to the digital then just switch back and forth by remote. "

Comparing analog to digital versions in reality for me is really easy, the only main issue is that SPL be evenly for both formats.

One of my last comparisons was:

" Diana Krall - When I Look in Your Eyes "

No contest here. CD version is way superior and I was surprised with because I was almost sure the LP been better than the CD. So I took in count that both recording versions were mastered by different gentlemans.

In this particular recording you can listen the differences for the better in the CD at the 2 minutes to listen both versions.

As many of us I own several recordings in both formats and usually in Original Motion Picture Soundtrack the CDs outperforms the LP versions even if mastered by the same guy.

In reality I'm not anal to take my time doing those comparisons. I'm  a way more interested to listen and enjoy my MUSIC sessions.

 

R.

 

 

 

Dear @mijostyn  :  "  I do compare digital to analog versions of various recordings by synchronizing the record to the digital then just switch back and forth by remote. "

I was sort of talking about the idea of objective comparison, so they also would need to be sync’ed in phase/speed.

 

Comparing analog to digital versions in reality for me is really easy, the only main issue is that SPL be evenly for both formats.

One of my last comparisons was:

" Diana Krall - When I Look in Your Eyes "

….

In reality I'm not anal to take my time doing those comparisons. I'm  a way more interested to listen and enjoy my MUSIC sessions

That last part sort of goes contrary to the majorly of your posts, which talked about bearing chatter and noises from the arm, that was the subject of the thread title.

@rauliruegas , Isn't it fun! You bet people would be surprised how it cuts both ways. In reality it is not being fair to vinyl as it has a steep up hill battle but, better is better be it the format or the mastering. What I really love are some of the BluRay concerts that are available like Return to Forever "Returns." It is almost as good as being at the real concert. The audio is spectacular. Another one is Mike Stern's Paris Concert with Dave Weckyl on drums. There are times when vinyl wins. It is like driving a manual. It takes more skill even if it is not as fast. That makes it more fun. Any monkey can slide a disc into a drive:-)

I have compared a TT Set Up the a CD Set Up on quite a few occasions and more recently in a another owned system, I was fortunate to be able to have a first time experience of trying out three sources as a comparison, where the finding were reassuring to myself.

A comparison took place of Technics SP10R > Glanz Arm > Miyajima Cart', a CD Source from Wadia and the EAR Acute and a latest generation Linn Streamer and the outcome was quite a surprise for me.  

As said this is not my first Rodeo when it comes to experiencing a Vinyl LP Source and CD Source as a comparison. I have a history of doing comparisons between a Vinyl LP Source and CD Source going back tothe 90's and these continued through to to the time I have been a user of CD Source within my system.

Since having a CD Source in my system, I have also been able to carry out comparisons of my CD Set Up in comparison to a selection of owned TT's with differing Tonearms and Cartridges as ancillaries.

As this thread is about ideas on selecting a Tonearm I will try and keep the recollections of the experiences focused on the Tonearms that have been used.

In my listening environment, there is a dedicated method in place to mount a TT and a CDT > DAC. Each method for mounting has be carried using methods that have shown there is a noticeable attraction to the use of a Support Material and method chosen for the mounting.

I have compared Three of my owned Tonearms on two different Motor Drive Design TT's.

The Idler Drive TT, as far as I am concerned is mounted into its final plinth material and there is not a need in my mind to make any further changes, the only further changes that can happen by myself, is to use other ancillaries, which on this TT may produce subtle changes to the perceived SQ on offer, whether for the better is an unknown.

The DD TT's are not in yet mounted in the Densified Wood Plinth Material I wish to see them mounted in, the required materials are owned and a job in waiting and sooon to be completed for one of the Brands.

One of the Brands is mounted in a material that is known to have a increased density and is recognised to have a improved Intrinsic Damping and Dissipation Properties, when compared to many materials selected for a Plinth. The material in use at present on the DD TT, is a less attractive material than a Densified Wood, but does have a proportion of the most desired properties .    

My experiences have shown that when swapping the DD  TT from the Plinth material in use and into a standard type plinth material, there is a noticeable difference and the material of choice that is in use at the present, is the most attractive to be used.

The use of the material used to produce a Plinth is quite a important consideration as it can have a remarkable impact on how the overall delivery of the LP replay is being perceived, especially if being assessed in a analytical listening discipline.

I expect my DD TT's to improve for the better when they are mounted in a Densified Wood Plinth, which will in my view make a further division between how they compare to a CD replay using the same recorded tracks.

A Idler Drive TT used with a Audiomods Tonearm and Hana SL Cartridge and AT-150 MLX Cart' is a fair match to my CD Source, once the SPL adjustments are worked out, the differences detected are not too far apart, and usually the most noticeable differences from recollection have been detected from the bass note. Also what has been of interest is that the MM that has not been used by myself regularly for many years, has shown I still have a attraction for it in use, and I can see myself returning to the use of MM's when the ears are a little less young. 

The same Idler Drive TT used with a Audio Technica 1100 Tonearm and AT 150 MLX Cartridge are also has been perceived from recollections, as a fair match to my CD Source. Again, once the SPL adjustments are worked out, the differences detected are not too far apart, and remain as the previous, where the most noticeable differences from recollection have been detected from the Bass note. 

The DD TT used in a not so commonly seen selected Plinth Material, and used with ancillaries such as a, Bespoke Produced Tonearm with a Bespoke Built MC Cart' has shown a remarkable improvement over the CD replays, there is very  detectable differences for the better, when making recollections of the perceptions that were happening. The CD is undoubtedly perceived as an inferior medium being used, when replayed on my CD Source and compared to the Vinyl Source chosen.

This experience is also seconded by a EE friend who has carried out very high quality projects all areas within HiFi and are producers of DAC's and Phonostages.

This friend now uses the same DD TT and Tonearm as my own, mounted in a different plinth material and supported on a Wall Shelf . They are very much of the view the TT has seriously improved on their old TT and has shown a jump in SQ over their digital creations for CD replays. This friend has now most recently produced a Densified Wood Plinth, and is making reports since its introduction, that it has been a major breakthrough in an improvement, the impact of it has also encouraged them to produce a Sub Plinth Structure using the same materials.

The questions not answered is that, when it comes to identifying what part of the Vinyl LP Source and ancillaries are the main item responsible for the noticeable differences in the comparisons.

The SPL and Bass Note differences can be attributed to the recording ?

The fact that the perception using one Drive System with differing Tonearms and  Cart's,  but ending up with very acceptable similarities is looking to be more down to the ancillaries used with the LP and CD. 

The additional experience where a Different Drive TT > Tonearm > Cart', produced the perception between two individuals in two different environments and mounting methods, that a very noticeable improvement was on offer from the Vinyl Source. In my view, suggests the very noticeable differences are due to the ancillaries used for the LP replay and have the capability of showing the CD Source in use is able to be perceived as a lesser recording medium or lesser quality source during the comparison.

During a allocation of time for a Comparison, I always after the A/B comparisons allow a source to play on for a extended period. It does not take long to relax into the replay and thoroughly enjoy it from any of the sources, the desire to change to the alternative replay option is not present or hankered for.

This is also the peasant surprise I got recently from the Linn Streamer used for a comparison session, I requested the Linn was allowed to replay a few tracks for their entirety, and within one track, I was settled and enjoying the replay to the point I made it known I could comfortably accept the idea of having the method set up in my system. 

With the enjoyment factor present during the use of both the Vinyl LP Source and CD Source when used in my system, and the outcome being both are being equal in my evaluations, I see no need for myself to judge one as better than the other.

If I was needing to make a subjective evaluation based on my experiences, at present within my system, there is a method for using the Vinyl LP as a source that stands out as improved over the CD Source that is in use.                

Dear @holmz  : No, it's not contrary what is happening is that you and me are at different step in the ladder way to enjoy MUSIC.

Your different threads/posts tells that with analog you are trying to go out of the " baby carry " when I'm already out of it years ago and now seated just enjoying MUSIC and posting in forums trying to help gentlemans that ask for. That's all. Nothing is contrary, you are in the fun learning ladder steps: good.

 

R.

 

 

Dear @mijostyn  : "  There are times when vinyl wins. " Rigth.

I don't know you but as time goes on I'm a little reluctant to use my time with all the protocolo need it to listen LPs against that " monkey " sliding the CD with out worring of nothin: just MUSIC and full great peace and happiness in mind.

R.

@holmz Your curiosity that you are expressing is an exceptional trait and if nurtured in a way that steers you toward communication with and the possibility of meeting with supportive types of individuals, who are like minded and are happy to be confronted with your expression of intertest, I foresee a very good run of experiences to be encountered.

A lot will be learnt and ideas that are on board and thought of as being an important consideration and very relevant, can quickly be undone, the ears when receiving information that is attractive are great at putting a smile on ones face and cementing a person in a need to change direction. 

From my experiences the worse that can happen to a individual who is taut about there ideas, is for them to be insular and not sharing in a broader range of experiences. The types that only have their viewpoints as the relevant methods and are locked in a obsession are to be avoided.

Lots of projects come from a mancave and are created by a type of person who very rarely is able to enjoy the fruits of there work or are able to see the beauty of the world outside.

The building of a HiFi System or the Upgrading of an in use System does take an amount of effort along with querying and foot work, not one person knows it all and those who do have an inkling of an idea, have quite a few hours behind them acquiring their level of understanding. 

It is important for your wellbeing that you are not being forced to feel down trodden by these regular claims being made that your levels of understanding inadequate and your search is a wasteful.

Please note: there is only one unique measuring device available that can show when a piece of equipment is capable of making a individual feel they are experiencing a performance that is quite attractive and satisfying and worthy of being considered for further usage, and that unique measure is yourself and how you respond to the experience. If you are encountering experiences that enlighten you and make you smile, there is not another who can deny you this.

My HiFi journey has brought myself to date where my preferred Speakers are ESL's. These are the ones I find are best suited to the overall genre of music I have collected. I have tried to discover other Speakers to make myself feel better about a replay and have not yet discovered one. It looks like I am Wed to the ESL. 

But there is an anomaly where the ESL does not get me to where I want to be with a genre of music, even though I use the ESL there is a missing moment and I have to occasionally recreate what is missing.

To elaborate, I was introduced to Blues Music in my early teens first white man copy cat and then old school Chicago Type Blues, as I grew into a Older Teen I was able to travel and see live acts, of which a Blues orientated group would be y preferred over a rock or punk type band.

My memories of live Blues played through a PA Speaker is indelible and there is not a ESL able to raise an imagination to simulate the live experiences.

I have a 25ish year old set of Tannoy Cabinet Stand Mount Speakers that are kept for this reason, they occasionally get mounted on a few stools and are used in the main system.

The use of the Tannoy Speakers and the replay of Blues Music is just such an enjoyable encounter, the colouration from the cabinets and poor mounting are just so right for the imagining a Live Venue standing in close proximity to a PA Speaker Set Up.

Strangely the set up is as HiFi as any other set up, the equipment used upstream from the Speakers are unquestionably designed to perform to very the high standards, and I am sure if I was to dig out info on the Speakers, there will have been a time in their existence that they were rated to a high standard, Tannoy is capable of receiving these accolades.

The last time the speaker was in use was in late 2021 and they remained in place for use for more than six months, it was only a social event that was the cause of the other speakers to be hooked up.

When it comes to creating a System it is very important for a person to find the place where the equipment is use is proving to be the most satisfying and pleasurable to be attached to, this can only really be assessed if the equipment is able to create a presentation that is thoroughly enjoyed.

There is no guarantee finding this place will kerb a curiosity, but it will guarantee that a regularly witnessed obsessional desire to endlessly off load equipment and bring in alternatives is able to be avoided.

The knowing a system will produce a place, where one is contented in their knowing it will create a happy place during a replay, is a protection against the usual reaching out to take the red hot tip of a poker and be left feeling  burned again.

 

  

Yeah @pindac I probably made my last tome arm board in the ~85-88 timeframe.
I don’t know if I was advised to use aluminium, or just lucky, but it is likely a plate of 6061 or 7075.

My feeling is that it probably was an improvement over the MDF tonearm board.
But I am not overly sure.

I suspect that there were LOMC back then. However I was running an AQ606 or AQ404 cart.

There are a lot more cartridge options available now.

Dear @holmz  : No, it's not contrary what is happening is that you and me are at different step in the ladder way to enjoy MUSIC.

Your different threads/posts tells that with analog you are trying to go out of the " baby carry " when I'm already out of it years ago and now seated just enjoying MUSIC and posting in forums trying to help gentlemans that ask for. That's all. Nothing is contrary, you are in the fun learning ladder steps: good

Maybe you’re right, but I thought it was out of stroller/pram back in ~84 when I got the TT, arm and cart.
I did upgrade the preamp in ‘98, which had me go an old ARC phono stage, and recently a more advanced phono stage with more gain and loading options.

It’s ANZAC day in the antipodes, but I swung by the local aluminium place today.
The sign said closed, but the shed door was open. 😃
The fellow was working on his “hot rod”, and I got an off cut of 10mm thick alloy.

I can get that shaped to fit into the Sota, and the three screw holes that attach it to the table.
Then later I can mark out the 222mm spindle distance.

The F.S./Thrax info says use a 24-25mm diameter hole… so I’ll see if there is a 15/16 Forstner bit, or reamer.
I’ll  just go slow and bore the hole on a drill press allowing the bit to cool occasionally.

Maybe I need to start a thread on how to pick out a cartridge next 😋

@holmz The searching out a Base Plate for the new Tonearm, landed you in the Company of a individual working on their Hot Rod / Custom Vehicle.

I'm sure the observations and possibly the banter were a nice distraction from the HiFi Interest. If you ever need a High Quality Aesthetic Paint Coating applied to a item that is owned, I am sure the Hot Rod owner can direct you.

I had a very good experience with a Custom Paint Shop when I was to have a TT Chassis recoated, I got the full treatment of being shown all the processes and was shown numerous samples.

I was very impressed with a work being done whilst I was there and settled for this as a 5 Coating Finish with Lacquer Application as well.   

I'm sure the observations and possibly the banter were a nice distraction from the HiFi Interest. If you ever need a High Quality Aesthetic Paint Coating applied to a item that is owned, I am sure the Hot Rod owner can direct you.

Always good to have a chat with like minded people.
He indicated surprise that I knew what a Caterham was.

@rauliruegas, now don't get lazy on us. This is after all an analog thread. Besides you will get the wrath of god for playing CDs. We all know that people with real HiFi's can not tolerate CDs. They are bad for your hearing and Coca Cola has imbedded advertising in them to make you thirsty, or was that Anheuser Busch?

Seriously, it took a while for everyone to get their act together when CDs first came out. The initial mastering and players were with few exceptions hideous. To many ears their reputation was permanently damaged which is not entirely fair. There is the problem of dynamic compression (loudness wars) but, that is done primarily with popular music not so much with jazz and classical. My Slipknot days are long gone. Some music is only available on CDs which I will buy and upload them to my hard drive. The computer then up-samples them on playback. This works quite nicely.

The vast majority of music is now stored in digital because it's performance will not decline with time and it is an enormous space saver. It then becomes easy to keep library copies in two locations avoiding a situation like the Universal Music Fire in which we lost a huge amount of music permanently.