Aesthetix IO Eclipse

Got it. I was wrong. The Io's first gain stage is NOT balanced. Ergo, there is no particular advantage to using the XLR inputs. I knew this was true of their less expensive phono stage, but I obviously thought differently (not to say "differentially") as regards the Io. I learned something. Thanks.

It is my understanding that the first gain stage of the IO is single ended. Hence the reason it does not matter if the input is single ended or balanced. It could matter if an opamp was used on the balanced input but one leg is simply sent to ground, making it for all practical purposes identical to the single ended input. I do use the XLR input on my Eclipse but only because I think it is a better physical connection. There also may be an advantage in cable geometry with a balanced cable.

The original BAT phono stage also had a single ended input (the next two stages, like the IO, were balanced). Viktor K stated bringing in a balanced phono signal was not all positives. You could cancel differential noise but since you are using two wires for the signal (plus and minus) you are also bringing in twice as much inherent noise. At the time (15 years ago??) there might have been only one or two phono stages that were balanced end to end. I think the technology to use such a low voltage balanced signal properly was not easily available at the time.

Later (10 years ago??) BAT did implement a true balanced input, so Viktor did have a change of heart and was able to technically accomplish what he could not earlier. Apparently Jim White is still of the "old school" on a balanced input.

Lewm -- follow up; direct quote from the Aesthetix Io manual (from the Aesthetix web site):
The phono stage contains three main amplification sections and an output buffer section. The first section is a high gain, low noise, zero feedback single ended amplifier composed of two low-noise 12AX7 vacuum tubes. This then feeds a high gain, low noise differential amplifier (two 12AX7 vacuum tubes) which amplifies the signal and produces a complementary minus phase signal. Thus, the unit is balanced from the second amplification section through the output.
So, from this description, there is no advantage to using XLR or a balanced input from the cartridge.

Lewm - to be more precise, the Io is fully balanced after the input stage. Using RCA or XLR gets the same output, the rest of the amplification is fully balanced. The one advantage of a balanced input would be common mode noise rejection, assuming a fully differential input. My system does not have such noise problems with the Io phono stage. I found that using a well shielded phono cable eliminated any hum or coupled noise.

Dear Oldvinyl, I don't know why it was deleted, but I posted yesterday that I cannot understand why Aesthetix, who took the pains to design and develop the fully balanced phono section in the Io, and who charge a great deal of money for the resulting component, would ever have told you that "balanced input from the cartridge has no real advantage". Perhaps you misunderstood their representative or you were talking to a misinformed person. Of course, there ARE advantages, and it would be silly not to avail yourself of same, especially if noise is/was an issue. Make sure you use a true 3-conductor XLR interconnect between the tonearm and Io (one for positive phase, an identical one for negative phase, and a ground wire). I don't think there is anything controversial here, so lets hope that this second try does not get deleted.

Chris -- I sold my Krell FPB600 and bought used Atmasphere MA-1 monoblocs here at A-gon, and got them upgraded at the factory. Although this was quite a change, and I was missing the bass at first (needed burn-in), I have not looked back. I am very happy with the OTL sound, and have only good things to say about Atmasphere and Ralph Karsten. The MA-1s turn out to be a good match with the Io.

Oldvinyl -- I use balanced JPS Superconductor FX cables from the Io to the amps. Not sure if better cables would make any big change. By the way I am now burning in the Io after the upgrade. Very interesting.

O_holter -- I initially tried the Purist Audio Design cables for the Io from Albert Porter. They were extremely high quality, well made and very very quiet (well shielded). They were simply out of my price range at that time. I contacted Audience, sent them the cables and had them rewire them with higher purity cables and add heavy duty shielding. It did the trick.

Io outputs sound best in balanced XLR configuration, much quieter than RCA (as expected). I checked with Aesthetix, using balanced input from the cartridge does not have any real advantage.

O holter
I am still looking for the right mono block tube amps. That have everything includes power and real slam bass of krell FPb600.
Is there one have experience of moving krell to tube without looking back.
Chris

RE Io best output: XLR / balanced output sounded best with my Krell. I have not tested much with my new tube monos.

Io input (from pickup) is perhaps also best served by balanced cable? I have only used RCA / single ended (Kimber KCAG). Comments?

Oldvinyl, very sensible advice. That was my own way, and I've not looked back. How did you upgrade the umbilical cables (and was it worth it)?

Csngl, interesting. I've found I prefer the Io's pure tube amplification all the way, to others I've heard.

Old vinyl
Agree xlr so much better,
Chris

I started with the Io 13 years ago. It had the volume control which is ideal for my setup. Several years later, I upgraded it to the MkII and added the second power supply. Several years after that I upgraded to the Signature version. About 1 1/2 years ago, I did the Eclipse upgrade. Each and every step along the way, the Io got better. Better in terms of lower noise floor, better dynamics, better transparency, more detail, yet more flow and music.

If in doubt, start with a used Io and one power supply. If you like it, they are fully upgradable. As several have pointed out, the Io is very reliable, easy on tubes and the factory support is superb.

Tweaks I made along the way: switched the EL-34s in the power supply to KT-66, replaced the umbilical cables with higher grade wire and lots of shielding. Replaced the stock AC cables with Nordost cables.

The Io sounds best with XLR outputs, much better to my ear than the RCA outputs. If you can run your amps with balanced inputs, that's the way to go.

O holter
I have listened to Callisto eclipse vs burmester, burmester is I think $28000
Same system in dealer's house . I told him I like Callisto better, more warm and involving. Surely to reach each ear. He did not disagree and said he is with me.

We all need to make a leap of faith in this process. And you are right, when there is a general, long-term consensus among folks with a variety of different, high quality systems, and input on appropriate related components, the risk is reduced.

Re: "careful evaluation in my own home".
I could not agree more. Of course, this is the ideal. However, it cannot always be done. Especially when you move to a top level, and live in a peripheral place, e g Norway. So one has to make informed (hopefully) choices. So far, I have done well, aided - not least - by helpful discussions in this forum. Nine months ago I bought Atmasphere amps, never having listened to them, but having some experience with OTL on my desktop. They replaced a VERY highly regarded solid-state amp. At first I thought it was a flop. They needed run-in, and I needed to adjust my ears. Now, I am very happy with the new amps. I am also buying new speakers, fit for the amps, from Audiokinesis. Have I heard them? No. I buy them, based on the advice from people I trust. Likewise, I have shipped my Io for the Partial Eclipse upgrade (that is, minus the chassis), across the Atlantic, based on advice. Do I know it will work? No. But I am able to make *informed guesses* and that is not least thanks to all you fellow writers, here in this forum.

Sidekick
Firstly Aesthetix service is first rated, Jim and Glenn are easy to talk to and helpful in everyway.
I have Callisto sgn and io sgn.
If I have the means I will upgrade to ecilpse. Forget about remote I am used to get up and adjust the volume.
Can I ask how is your Karan m2000 that is a power amp did it said class A in what watts ? How is your liking.
Thanks
Chris

Good suggestion Bill.

Even a brief listening session by Sidekick could be of great benefit.

Sidekick- I think i responded to your query on another forum and based on your stated preferences, would probably lean toward the tube unit. And, although it is not the same as trying it in your home, could you devote a couple days to a trip to, say, London, where a dealer or two might be able to help demonstrate some of the units in something close to what you have?
If you are in Stockholm, please say hello to the people at that hotdog stand behind the Grand Hotel- it was always my first stop.
PS I had also suggested you try the ARC Ref as a sort of middle ground and perhaps if you did a trip to, say London, you could audition it as well.
Best of luck,
Bill Hart

AR...? Audio Research?

The AR phono stage is good, but no way does it compete with the aesthetix.

Sidekick_i, I thought I would add one more comment to support what Albertporter has said about the choices you are considering. As much as I try to find long-term listening enjoyment from the solid-state phono stages I've heard, I keep coming back to preferring tubes in my phono stage. For me, the sound is just SO much more natural and realistic - particularly with the Aesthetix Io.

With the volume controls, the Io makes a great standalone unit. I drive my Atma-Sphere amps directly with the Io with great results. When I sit down to listen, I am regularly pulled into the music, not the sonics. But it is the superbly natural sonics that allows that to happen.

Good luck!

Thanks for valuable responses!

As I live in Scandinavia/Europe, the possibility of auditioning equipment on this level in my own home and system are extremely limited. Even so, I've managed to make most choices so far based on careful evaluation in my own home. In this case though (looking for a high end phono), it's impossible, as there's almost nothing available on my local market. So, basically, I have to make a decision based on listening on trade shows and auditioning the systems of my friends, partnered with advice from the hifi community.

So again, thanks for valuable input!

I would go for the Aesthetix, no question. Nothing wrong with Pass but once the "new" wears off of this acquisition and you settle in and listen day after day, you will appreciate what the IO and tubes do for long term listening enjoyment.

Linnlp12 comments about active versus passive are accurate. The IO is active but it's mate the Aestheitx Callisto presents a significant improvement in sound, a purchase you could make years from now with no penalty should you need the added flexibility.

That being said, I would prefer IO as stand alone solution and If two boxes are preferred, the IO with single power supply would still be the superior choice and clear performance winner in my opinion.

On the volume controls, I was using a passive mod squad preamp and was going to go after a placette. Then an ARC REF 3 came along. I never looked back. For a test, I put the mod squad back in. No comparison, the REF 3 all the way. I know the IO volume controls are not in back where they will mess with the impedance. But the combo is truly stunning to me. I have gone through many high end phono/non-phono preamps and this combo is the best so far. Many more to try while my hearing still exist. By the way if people talk tube hiss when you get to my age and have tinnutis, you have tube hiss 24 hours a day :-)

Sidekick_i, I have never heard the Pass so I cannot say. But I do know the Io, and do not think you will be disappointed. Great with rock as well as less dynamic music. Works well with my 0.5 v Titan i p-u. No noise problems after I got a replacement tube set from Aesthetix. Functios fine direct into my amps (Krell, now Atmasphere). Since I enjoy it a lot, I have shipped it for an upgrade, even if it costs a lot from where I live (Norway).

Well, if being a snobbish arse makes you an audiophile, I think I'll pass.

Aesthetix IO Eclipse with dual power supplies

Pass Labs XP-25

Your advice please.

Well, to be honest, those 2 Designs have absolutely nothing in common and are
2 totally different sounding reproduction designs.
When you think about those 2, you have absolutely no idea from anything but
you want to be accepted - based on their price tags - as a 'serious' Audiophile
:-). It is like rolling a dice for you. How about Parasound JC3 from Curl instead
of the Pass?
Roll it and have fun.

After much research and soul searching during the last couple of months, I'm going to make a final decision this weekend, where the final battle stands inbetween the discussed IO Eclipse and the Pass Labs XP-25.

In the right corner:

Aesthetix IO Eclipse with dual power supplies

+ the beauty of tubes
+ superior build quality and aesthetics (IMHO)
+ additional line input (for a digital source) making it a fully functional preamp (which in the end almost justifies the price...)

- twice as expensive as the Pass
- large boxes - 3 in total
- a LOT of tubes, which means a lot of heat and potential sources of hum and/or failure

...and in the left corner:

Pass Labs XP-25

+ half price compared to the Aesthetix
+ less (and smaller) boxes - 2 in total
+ less heat and less potential problems...

- no additional line input (which means you'll need a dedicated preamp for a digital source)

Your advice please.

Many thanks.

Whoever had the Io Sig. and then sold it, def. is an audiophile. The Io is one of the best phono stages out there. Its imaging, texture, and dynamics are first rate. If you love chamber classical and jazz quartets you are in for a real treat. It is a music lovers dream. You still need great table, arm, and cartridge properly set up to get its maximum potential.

I disagree with Linnlp12 regarding the volume controls. Unless you already have a *very* good preamp, I see little reason to cash out for the Io unless it has volume and the extra line input. That means if functions as a preamp. With a DAC connected to the line input, you can have several sources connected to the DAC, and switch between them on the DAC. This way you can do without a separate preamp. Several users have reported that the direct link from the Io to the amp(s) sounds great. This is my experience also, not least from the extra input, which seems to have even lower distortion than the riaa/phono input.

Well, personally, I'm not very interested in turning a high end investment into a DIY-project. I prefer to put my trust in Jim White (Aesthetix :)

You will not regret changing the caps (unless you choose the wrong cap :-). Everyone has their flavor of caps, I went through a lot of them for many many year. I would suggest you pick one that you know the after break in sound characteristics. Its an incredibly lot of work (understatement) but the effort will be rewarded. I dont change resistors or anything like that as I have made sound worse doing that. Some components are better than others, upgrade is just a term for "I want something new" :-). But the IO is what I consider really one of those special pieces. I did listen to it for a long time through a mod squad line drive passive and enjoyed it. Eventually went to an audio research Ref 3. The change was significant to my ears, therefore, i chose not to upgrade with the volume controls. For this reason, I agree with a comment that I beleive Albert Porter and some other person made online, go for the unit without volume controls and put the difference elsewhere.

As for reliability, I’ve owned both a Rhea and IO Sig for over a year and have had zero issues with them. Concerning noise, I listen near field and have a fairly sensitive amp and only get a slight hiss with nothing playing using 74db of gain. I have found that both IO and Rhea are sensitive not only to tubes as others have pointed but also to cabling (phono, IC & power). Shielded cables are a must along with careful dressing. Albert Porter had Purist make a custom umbilical that he said help quite things down a bit. I think he still may market this.

I fall into the NOS camp for tubes. They are clearly better in my system and to my ears.

I plan on taking the road that LinnLP12 took when it comes time to upgrade. From what I can tell, the Eclipse looks like it was only a cap upgrade with a new chassis. I’m not impressed by the TRT Stealth caps in the Eclipse. I seriously doubt they are Teflon as they are the same size physically as the DynamiCaps they replaced. There are too many interesting options available not to have a bit of fun with this. Then there is the cost issue with the Eclipse versus the Signature. I think the cartridge loading and shunt resistors also look like low hanging fruit. I have Vishay TX2572’s in house for the cartridge loading position but haven’t gotten around to getting those installed.

Hifi news(UK) has a recent review available online:

http://www.hifinews.co.uk/news/article.asp?a=9345

Hifi news and What hifi has only praise for the IO Eclipse, besides mentioning the practical issues as well as the potential back sides of the highly purist design.

I believe Stereophile has the IO Eclipse for review as we speak. Looking forward to that.

I have an original IO i purchased used from a dealer. Rather than send it back for an upgrade, i changed all the capacitors myself except for the 2uf big ones with TFT teflons. It was a heck of a job. Understatement of the century. But worth it. Tft have imroved everything i ever put them in to my ears.. The difference is significant and i love it. I am running it with an NOS spectral mcr at 0.2 on a basis ovation triplanar with io at 74 db into a reference 3 pre and have plenty of gain at 32. Speakers are currently 801s3. But also used dyn special 25 krell resolution 2.Also an orpheus h on a debut vector. The only noise i have is from a buzzing transformer in the power supply ( not through the speakers). Based on all these comments i will live with the buzzing rather than send it back..I can highly recommend the io . I want to hear the arc if i get a chance. I have had so many phono stages and nothing has come close to my aged ears. Tubes are mullard telefunken. Btw.

Aesthetix
‎"The best phono stage we have ever heard"...on newsstands now, Io Eclipse wins 5 Stars from What Hi-Fi? Sound & Vision magazine in the UK - What an honor, thank you! http://www.whathifi.com/themag/07-2012

Tobes, I haven't seen these instructions. I've always just followed the lighting of the diodes on the face of the power supplies as my guide. But, from experience, if the power supplies are not fully stabilized, you can get some wonky sounds. For my system, I'm generally doing a 10-15 minute warm-up in any event for everything to stabilize (tube phono, tube monoblock amps, air bearing TT).
.

Hi Rushton, while I'm not in the immediate market for an Io, I've had a peruse of the owners manual and was surprised by the unusually long warm-up before use. Specifically, I'm referring to these instructions:
A. Turn power on.
B. Wait at least fifteen minutes for power supplies to fully stabilize before unmuting preamp.
C. Begin playing record.

I'm used to tube phono and preamps muting for 30-45s after power-up - but 15min(?) seems a bit excessive/inconvenient. What have you found?

The Rhea Signature is very good. The Io Signature is materially better. I'd also prefer the standard Io over the Rhea Signature, particularly knowing that I can update it at any time.

Please don't misunderstand the noise point.

The Io is VERY quiet. There are NO "noise issues." It is simply a question of 80+ db of gain coming entirely from tubes. If you run the Io "flat out," there will some tube rush as compared to a solid state or transformer based gain stage device. At reasonable listening volumes and with reasonable output cartridges (e.g., 0.24mv and above), the Io Signature or Eclipse will be very quiet and one of the very best phono stages available.
.

Has anyone compared the IO to the Rhea Sig? The latter, from my readings, hasn't had any noise problems and is a single chassis unit with great conveniences. Of course the actual sonics are what ultimately counts.

If a key requirement for your enjoyment is "dead silence" from the electronics, the Io will likely never satisfy your need. It is generating 80db of gain all from tubes. There are tradeoffs in doing this as compared to a solid state phono stage or a tube phono stage that uses a transformer gain step up device.

To my ear, the Io's all active tube gain sonics are consistently superior in naturalness, timbre and micro-dynamics - a sense of "life" to the music.

The downside to this all active tube gain is that a certain amount of tube rush is going to show through if you are using a very low output cartridge or if you are consistently playing at very high volume levels. The demand on the first gain stage tubes for low noise is significant and not to be underestimated. Even with "perfect" tubes, some people will continue to complain that the unit is noisy. For me, this is NOT the case. But, I've listened to vinyl and tubes for 40 years and am somewhat less concerned about dead silence in the background than others may be.

As to expressed reservations about soundstaging and precise imaging, I find no fault and only praise for the Io in these areas. I listen primarily to classical (orchestral and chamber) and small ensemble jazz. The ability to precisely and accurately reproduce the players and their instruments in space (horizontal, vertical and in depth) are high priorities for my listening enjoyment. And the Io is able to meet my very high expectations in these areas.
.

Had the IO Sig for a couple of years. I did find it noisy even with Jim's recdommended tubes. More important though is the perspective of the soundstage it throws. at first it sounds huge and it is. only when I switched to another phono stage did i realize that the IO is not so focussed and you might miss a more precise staging of the music. I put the IO n the same category as ARC phono stages - big sound highly impressive, but artificial if you want to replay a quartet on stage. Not saying it is bad or even wrong, but that is the characteristic of width and height versus depth and precision.

Hmmm... I suppose Io Eclipse could be a bit more susceptible to hum or whatever from interference elsewhere since the
case is mostly opened mesh grill. I had quite a bit of humming problem initially that went away after I connect a wire from the chassis to ground (same go for my Lamm LP2 but LP2 was a bit easier since it came with its own ground binding post). However, I am not sure about hissing and crackling noise though.

@Programmergeek

I'm really sorry to hear about your troubles! But, based on the respons I've got from other IO-owners (as well as a great amount of customers cheering about the great service provided by Aesthetix in general), I'm also quite surprised hearing about your experience.

What does Aesthetix have to say about all this? I can't imagine them sending you a unit that's not 100% OK. Is it "only" a noise issue, or do you experience other problems with it sonically as well?

I had a regular IO single power supply that was just upgraded to the eclipse sig it went in for repair because it sounded so bad they needed to change so much the upgrade made sense, well it saved me some cash and I didn’t want any issues I wanted to sound great after all the previous issues and time I spent so I gave them the ok. Thousands of dollars later, got it back nothing but trouble the thing makes so much noise I can't listen to it! I borrowed a $500 little photo stage and it sounded so much better. Didn't have the depth the IO had but overall so much better only a little hiss. I am back about 15’ from my vandersteen 7 and I hear a pretty loud hiss and crackling in the the channels now ans then. Aesthetix then sold me more tubes thinking the tubs got bounced in shipping for several hundred dollars! Still makes the same noise quieted it down maybe 5%. I have spent no less than 80 hours swaping tubes and doing everything under the sun to make this wok because I am in it for so much cash. I am so frustrated with it I have not powered it up in months I would never buy this pre amp again. I think my system is just to sensitive for it maybe if I had less sensitive speakers but I hear everything and although the sound is big and live I can’t get past the noises it makes. I don't see how anyone can even here space and blackness over the pops and hiss.

@Suteetat

Interesting :) I believe Karan has sold about 10-15 pairs of the M2000 world wide so far, which makes them quite exotic. I've had mine for about 2-3 months now. They do need quite some time to open up and "relax", as they did sound rather stiff and hard around the edges at first. They're also extremely transparent and a hard judge on their partners, which makes careful matching critical.

Sidekick, My friend is using his Karan with Magico Q5 and ARC 40th Anniversary pre. Can't comment much on the sound yet as he just had his listening room rebuilt and the amps are still not burn in completely yet but the bass and dynamic on his Q5 is just about the cleanest,tightest, most controlled that I ever heard so far.

@Suteetat

OK, thanks. May I ask (out of curiosity) what your friend is partnering the Karan monos with?

I recommend you call Aesthetix and talk with Jim or Glenn about your proposed placement. They will have the experience across their user base to help you make that determination.

You can reach Glenn at (805) 529-9901

My Io runs much hotter than my friend's Karan new 2000 watts
monoblocks. Both Aesthetix units will generate a lot of heat
so I imagine that you probably want at least 3 if not all 4 sides open as much as possible.

Regarding heat generation. Is it at all possible/recommendable to place the power supplies in a cabinet (with an open back)? This works well with my Karan monos, but I do expect the Aesthetix units to get significantly warmer.